Joseph Smith's Schooling/Vocabulary to produce The Book of Mormon

[Zosimus]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s an odd request. What constitutes such an idea? What would establish its  accessibility? Let’s try this out. 

Following massive destruction at the time of his death, the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to the survivors who were of a culture that had come to the New World from Jerusalem 600 years earlier to escape captivity, sailing in boats built by desert dwellers and directed by a compass-like object that was powered by faith in God; were led by prophets who personally knew the pre-mortal Lord Jesus Christ; were baptized in His name while at the same time observing the Law of Moses; anticipating His visit because of visions and prophecies over centuries; experiencing His intimate ministry to them during which He established His Church and taught them His gospel; who eventually suffered massive apostasy and genocidal wars at the hands of their brothers, but were promised to be restored in the Last Days when their story would miraculously be revealed to an poor untutored farm boy in New York by one of their last great prophets and his son.

That works, but it will require some discussion before I can address the details in your comment above. I'll start with some passages from a book I've recently read discussing two books that inspired the formation of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions which sent the first American missionaries into the American frontier to preach and convert the native American Indians, twenty years before the publication of the Book of Mormon. To make things more interesting, I've removed all identifying names, locations and dates, for now:

American Baptist missionaries point to a single book to explain the history of their missions. The book was, of course, the Bible…But an examination of the earliest American Baptist missionary records reveals that the Bible was not the only book that inspired the Baptists; there was another book, and it, too, told of the life and teachings of Christ, but these sacred messages were said to have been buried under centuries of heathen darkness and superstition. This other book was an imagined ancient Indian manuscript.

The fantastical idea of an ancient Christian Indian scripture became popular reading in Protestant circles. One missionary asserted that the ancient writings recorded specific details from the history of Christ; that the native religion contained relics of the first faith of the earth; and that buried among all the dark superstitions, was the divine light of God. Several young Americans were so taken with the book’s contention that a recently discovered collection of Indian scriptures celebrated a prince from two millennia ago, whose miraculous birth, life of mysterious and wonderful works, death, and resurrection are consistent with those of Christ, that they became America's first missionaries.

Can you identify the second book?

Edited November 5, 2024 by Zosimus

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/2/2024 at 8:13 AM, Bernard Gui said:

.............................

Where was your school? Apparently you were taught quite well,  considering what you have accomplished in your life. 

I did not know that my 1940s elementary schooling in the remote high Sierras was old fashioned, but my Mom and Dad were both college grads, and Mom made sure I could read before I went to 1st grade (she was a school-teacher before marriage).

Edited November 5, 2024 by Robert F. Smith

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Oops, missed the *

It’s from Hannah Adams, History of the Jews. The link should take you directly to the parts about the grafting of olive trees. In addition, Dan Vogel writes:

"Adams discusses the Indian Israelite theory of Manasseh ben Israel and James Adair (2:333-38) and mentions the black Jews of Cochin and their brass plates (2:197-99)."

Source: Dan Vogel, "Bibliography" Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon, Salt Lake City, Signature Books, 1986, pp. 105-144.

There's further discussion about the white and black Jews of Cochin and their brass plates here, and other threads on this forum

Thanks. I always try to read original sources when possible. A few things come to mind.

Why would Joseph need to crib from Adams? Since he was well-versed in the Bible, he would have known Romans 11:24 gave him the kernel upon which he composed the Allegory of the Olive Tree; moreover, Paul was probably familiar with the writings of the prophet Zenos who authored the allegory, and then alluded to it in his epistle.

The Black and White Jews of Cochin and their secular brass [copper] plates confirm the Book of Mormon claim that the Lord had sheep other than the Jews in Jerusalem and the Nephites in Zarahemla. Whether He visited them remains unclear. 
 

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I did not know that my 1940s elementary schooling in the remote high Sierras was old fashioned, but my Mom and Dad were both college grads, and Mom made sure I could read before I went to 1st grade (she was a school-teacher before marriage).

Well, there it is. My dad did not finish high school, my mom attended an “academy” in a Mormon colony. She made sure I had piano lessons.  I went to one of the best public high schools in country, but haven’t amounted to much as a result. 😉

Just how old fashioned are we talking about? Did you feel the willow switch? Did you ever take a licking for another student? Was the school heated by a wood stove? 

Edited November 5, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, there it is. My dad did not finish high school, my mom attended an “academy” in a Mormon colony. She made sure I had piano lessons.  I went to one of the best public high schools in country, but haven’t amounted to much as a result. 😉

Was that academy in Colonia Juarez?  I also went to an excellent high school, but daydreamed the whole time and so got terrible grades. Hence, my father's alma mater (UC Berkeley) rejected me, and I had to attend BYU (which would take anyone in those days, no matter what).

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Just how old fashioned are we talking about? Did you feel the willow switch? Did you ever take a licking for another student? Was the school heated by a wood stove? 

Our huge pot-bellied stove may have used wood.  Can't recall now, but it was lumbering country, so plenty of wood.  Our dear teacher was my next-door neighbor and she took special care of me and my little sister in school.  She did not have a willow switch, but did take off a shoe and beat a kid who was bullying me -- while she sat on him (his parents thought she went too far and I could hear them yelling at her in her office).  She would punish me by having me put my nose in a small chalk circle on the blackboard for awhile (I talked out of turn).  Corporal punishment by teachers was acceptable without parental permission.

[Zosimus]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why would Joseph need to crib from Adams? Since he was well-versed in the Bible, he would have known Romans 11:24 gave him the kernel upon which he composed the Allegory of the Olive Tree; moreover, Paul was probably familiar with the writings of the prophet Zenos who authored the allegory, and then alluded to it in his epistle.

He wouldn't, but I find its more convincing that an idea could come from both the Bible and a contemporary source. It shows that people in Joseph's time and place were interpreting Romans 11:24 in the way you assume Joseph could have.

Quote

The Black and White Jews of Cochin and their secular brass [copper] plates confirm the Book of Mormon claim that the Lord had sheep other than the Jews in Jerusalem and the Nephites in Zarahemla. Whether He visited them remains unclear. 

Their brass plates weren't secular according to the accounts that would have been available in the 1810s and 1820s. For example, Hannah got much of her content on religions from Thomas Maurice, who said the plates contained the history of the Israelites that fled to Cochin around the Babylonian captivity (same as Lehi) and that they were of the Tribe of Manasseh (same as Lehi):

"A colony of Jews, to the amount of no less than eighty thousand families, is asserted, by that author, on the authority of the Dutch records at Crangamore, on the coast of Malabar, to have anciently flourished, in the kingdom of Cochin, under elders and judges of their own election. Their traditional history, which they anxiously preserve on copper-plates, deeply engraved in Hebrew characters, deposited in the sanctuary of the synagogue, relates, that their ancestors came thither before the downfall of the Babylonian empire; and that history descends, in a regular series of events, from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar to the present time. It announces them to be of the tribe of Manasses, and describes their tedious journey of three years from Babylon to the coast of Malabar, the various sufferings which this miserable and exiled race, amounting to twenty thousand families, endured in their progress thither, the hospitable reception they met with from the natives, their thriving commerce, their increasing population, the period of their highest power and aggrandization, and that of their gradual decline, down to their present number, of about four thousand families only. A similar colony, if we may believe the Jesuits, established themselves in China." (source)

Claudius Buchanan later visits Cochin and confirms in his popular 1811 sermon Star in the East that it was believed that the Cochin "plates of brass" contained a history of the Cochin Jews describing their journey. Jahn and Adams also reference Buchanan a few years before the publication of the Book of Mormon:

Johann Jahn wrote in 1823 that “those [ancient] books, which were inscribed on tablets of wood, lead, brass, or ivory, were connected together by rings at the back, through which a rod was passed to carry them by” (Jahn’s Biblical Archaeology, Thomas C. Upham, trans. [Andover, 1823], 95-96). Cf. The Evening and the Morning Star 1 (Jan. 1833), in which W. W. Phelps quotes from Jahn’s book. Thomas Hartwell Horne, An Introduction to the Study of Bibliography, 2 vols. (London, 1814), 1:33-35, discusses the ancient use of lead books and brass and copper plates; Claudius Buchanan, The Star in the East, 10th Amer. ed. (Boston, 1811), 48-49, says that the Jews of Cochin, India, who Buchanan believed were remnants of the lost ten tribes, kept a history of their journey to those parts on “plates of brass” (source)

Edited November 6, 2024 by Zosimus

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/5/2024 at 9:14 PM, Zosimus said:

He wouldn't, but I find its more convincing that an idea could come from both the Bible and a contemporary source. It shows that people in Joseph's time and place were interpreting Romans 11:24 in the way you assume Joseph could have.

I don’t assume Joseph got the idea from either source, but it would be more likely that he read it in the Bible and not in Adam’s book. Given his minimal schooling, do you think he could comprehend her discussions? I doubt much that he read them before the BoM was translated. Is there evidence that “that people in Joseph's time and place were interpreting Romans 11:24 in [that] way?” Was this a widely-discussed issue in Palmyra?

On 11/5/2024 at 9:14 PM, Zosimus said:

Their brass plates weren't secular according to the accounts that would have been available in the 1810s and 1820s. For example, Hannah got much of her content on religions from Thomas Maurice, who said the plates contained the history of the Israelites that fled to Cochin around the Babylonian captivity (same as Lehi) and that they were of the Tribe of Manasseh (same as Lehi):

"A colony of Jews, to the amount of no less than eighty thousand families, is asserted, by that author, on the authority of the Dutch records at Crangamore, on the coast of Malabar, to have anciently flourished, in the kingdom of Cochin, under elders and judges of their own election. Their traditional history, which they anxiously preserve on copper-plates, deeply engraved in Hebrew characters, deposited in the sanctuary of the synagogue, relates, that their ancestors came thither before the downfall of the Babylonian empire; and that history descends, in a regular series of events, from the reign of Nebuchadnezzar to the present time. It announces them to be of the tribe of Manasses, and describes their tedious journey of three years from Babylon to the coast of Malabar, the various sufferings which this miserable and exiled race, amounting to twenty thousand families, endured in their progress thither, the hospitable reception they met with from the natives, their thriving commerce, their increasing population, the period of their highest power and aggrandization, and that of their gradual decline, down to their present number, of about four thousand families only. A similar colony, if we may believe the Jesuits, established themselves in China." (source)

Let’s say that this story reinforces the account of the migration of two other Hebrew groups, the Lehites and Mulekites. Jesus, in the BoM, acknowledged that there were tribes other than Lehites and Mulekites that were led away by the Father. 

Quote

3 Nephi 15:13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

18 And now, because of stiff neckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

It would be even more interesting if there were evidence that Jesus visited these people. 

On 11/5/2024 at 9:14 PM, Zosimus said:

Claudius Buchanan later visits Cochin and confirms in his popular 1811 sermon Star in the East that it was believed that the Cochin "plates of brass" contained a history of the Cochin Jews describing their journey. Jahn and Adams also reference Buchanan a few years before the publication of the Book of Mormon:

Johann Jahn wrote in 1823 that “those [ancient] books, which were inscribed on tablets of wood, lead, brass, or ivory, were connected together by rings at the back, through which a rod was passed to carry them by” (Jahn’s Biblical Archaeology, Thomas C. Upham, trans. [Andover, 1823], 95-96). Cf. The Evening and the Morning Star 1 (Jan. 1833), in which W. W. Phelps quotes from Jahn’s book. Thomas Hartwell Horne, An Introduction to the Study of Bibliography, 2 vols. (London, 1814), 1:33-35, discusses the ancient use of lead books and brass and copper plates; Claudius Buchanan, The Star in the East, 10th Amer. ed. (Boston, 1811), 48-49, says that the Jews of Cochin, India, who Buchanan believed were remnants of the lost ten tribes, kept a history of their journey to those parts on “plates of brass” (source)

I can’t think of a better way to connect brass, ivory, or gold  plates than to bind them with rings, or loose papers, for that matter. Wasn’t WW smart enough ro see the connection and blow the whistle? 😉

This is just one of many sources Joseph supposedly tapped when he produced the Book of Mormon. Have you come to that conclusion?

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/5/2024 at 6:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Was that academy in Colonia Juarez?  I also went to an excellent high school, but daydreamed the whole time and so got terrible grades. Hence, my father's alma mater (UC Berkeley) rejected me, and I had to attend BYU (which would take anyone in those days, no matter what).

Manassa/Sanford, Colorado. 

Yes, BYU took me, too,  but my grades and test scores were decent. 

On 11/5/2024 at 6:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Our huge pot-bellied stove may have used wood.  Can't recall now, but it was lumbering country, so plenty of wood.  Our dear teacher was my next-door neighbor and she took special care of me and my little sister in school.  She did not have a willow switch, but did take off a shoe and beat a kid who was bullying me -- while she sat on him (his parents thought she went too far and I could hear them yelling at her in her office).  She would punish me by having me put my nose in a small chalk circle on the blackboard for awhile (I talked out of turn).  Corporal punishment by teachers was acceptable without parental permission.

What memorable and unique experiences! My 8th grade geography teacher made me stand with my nose in the circle owhen I cracked a joke during a lecture! He also would kick the chair out from under any boy leaning back in it. Once he took a student by the neck of his shirt and the waist of his pants and threw him out into the courtyard. Several of my teachers made use of the “board of education,” even some when I was teaching in the early ‘80s. 

[Zosimus]

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Is there evidence that “that people in Joseph's time and place were interpreting Romans 11:24 in [that] way?” 

There is, in a book published in Palmyra in 1830

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Let’s say that this story reinforces the account of the migration of two other Hebrew groups, the Lehites and Mulekites. Jesus, in the BoM, acknowledged that there were tribes other than Lehites and Mulekites that were led away by the Father. 

One of the first accounts of a group from the Tribe of Manasseh fleeing the Babylonian captivity of Jerusalem in 600 BC, with metal plates containing a history of their journey, was published in 1793. Claudius Buchanan confirms the historicity of this account in his popular Star in the East, when he reports seeing the plates in Cochin a decade later:

“They [the Jews in Cochin, India] have a Synagogue at Cochin, not far from the King’s Palace, about two Miles from the City, in which are carefully kept their Records, engraven in Copper-plates in Hebrew characters; and when any of the Characters decay, they are new cut, so that they can shew their own History, from the Reign of Nebuchadnezzar to the present Time…They declare themselves to be of the Tribe of Manasseh…”

The Book of Mormon, published 20 years later, reinforces the Maurice and Buchanan accounts. Not vice versa.

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It would be even more interesting if there were evidence that Jesus visited these people. 

Evidence of Jesus visiting anybody after his death isn’t available. But there is evidence that Christians in the time of Moroni believed that Jesus appeared in a distant nation, east of Jerusalem.

The Revelation of the Magi talks about a people at the farthest eastern edges of the world that received revelations of the birth of Christ. Following his death, Christ personally visited these people. The text mentions the apostle Thomas also visited these people to establish the Church among them following the visit of Christ. This must be referring to the Thomas Christians, who lived alongside the Cochin Jews. Centuries previous to the Revelation of the Magi, the Cochin Christians were claiming to be members of the church established by Thomas, immediately following Christ’s death.

It is true that this text would not have been known to Joseph Smith in 1829, but he could have been familiar with the account through a text called the Opus Imperfectum, a 5th century Christian commentary on Matthew, which claims to come from a Book of Seth, but is actually dependent on the Revelation of the Magi source text.

There’s an interesting story about how the Smith family could have encountered the narrative originally found in the Revelation of the Magi. It would have been many years previous, in Vermont.

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I can’t think of a better way to connect brass, ivory, or gold  plates than to bind them with rings, or loose papers, for that matter. Wasn’t WW smart enough to see the connection and blow the whistle? 😉

Phelps of course believed that the references to metal plates with inscriptions was evidence for the Book of Mormon. But this is difficult to support since those references were published before the Book of Mormon.

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is just one of many sources Joseph supposedly tapped when he produced the Book of Mormon. Have you come to that conclusion?

We can know Joseph Smith was familiar with at least one of these sources because an editorial in the Times & Seasons summarizes the ideas of “learned moderns” regarding the migrations of Noah and or his sons into India before and after the tower of Babel. These ideas appear to come from either the Maurice text or the Adams text.

Edited November 10, 2024 by Zosimus

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

We can know Joseph Smith was familiar with at least one of these sources because an editorial in the Times & Seasons summarizes the ideas of “learned moderns” regarding the migrations of Noah and or his sons into India before and after the tower of Babel. These ideas appear to come from either the Maurice text or the Adams text.

But this would be after the production of the BoM if it was in the Times and Seasons, correct? And as you pointed out yourself, appearance of an idea before the claimed resource is accessible is not evidence.

Quote

But this is difficult to support since those references were published before the Book of Mormon.

 

Edited November 10, 2024 by Calm

[Zosimus]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

But this would be after the production of the BoM if it was in the Times and Seasons, correct? And as you pointed out yourself, appearance of an idea before the claimed resource is accessible is not evidence.

What I mean is both the Book of Mormon (1830) and Times and Seasons (October 1842) appear to pull from a text written by Thomas Maurice in 1793.

The Book of Mormon follows the narrative of members of the Tribe of Mannaseh documenting on metal plates their journey around 600 BC from Jerusalem to a land across the sea.

T&S says "The Indian and Hindoo traditions of the earliest times point to Noah and the Deluge; and they claim to be the descendants of that patriarch." (source) I believe this is referring to a number of supposed parallels between Hindu traditions and Genesis listed in Maurice's book. T&S also follows Maurice's explanation that Ararat is actually a chain of mountains stretching from Armenia to India and that Noah and/or his sons went into India both before and after the confusion of tongues.

[Zosimus]

On 11/9/2024 at 10:24 AM, Bernard Gui said:

This is just one of many sources Joseph supposedly tapped when he produced the Book of Mormon. Have you come to that conclusion?

My conclusion is that there were enough resources available to Joseph Smith in the year before he began translation. Here's another resource to add to the list. Charles Anthon was a reader of Maurice's book, which he references in the 1841 edition of his Classical Dictionary. Anthon also references Maurice in his 1827 and 1833 editions. In the 1827 edition he introduces his theory that Egyptian writing and civilization originated in India, and came to Meroe/Egypt through trade and conquest. In his 1833 edition he provides significant details and "proofs" for the theory: (source)

From Anthon's letters, we learn that he also believed that Egyptian civilization was carried to America through the Pacific islands. In other words, when Anthon claimed to have seen Egyptian scripts on the transcript, he may have been doing so in support of his idea that the burial mounds in the western USA were built by Egyptians.

It does seem possible that Anthon, who was looking for proofs for his theories, was initially supportive of the translation of the gold plates. He very well could have told Harris a number of details about his theory regarding the peopling of the Americas from Egypt and India, via the Pacific. He may have even referred Harris to the 1827 edition of his Classical Dictionary where some proofs for his theories are found. Of course, once he learned how Joseph recovered the gold plates, Anthon would have retracted his support. 

Edited November 12, 2024 by Zosimus

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/9/2024 at 8:08 PM, Zosimus said:

There is, in a book published in Palmyra in 1830

1830? Seriously? Which book?

On 11/9/2024 at 8:08 PM, Zosimus said:

One of the first accounts of a group from the Tribe of Manasseh fleeing the Babylonian captivity of Jerusalem in 600 BC, with metal plates containing a history of their journey, was published in 1793. Claudius Buchanan confirms the historicity of this account in his popular Star in the East, when he reports seeing the plates in Cochin a decade later:

“They [the Jews in Cochin, India] have a Synagogue at Cochin, not far from the King’s Palace, about two Miles from the City, in which are carefully kept their Records, engraven in Copper-plates in Hebrew characters; and when any of the Characters decay, they are new cut, so that they can shew their own History, from the Reign of Nebuchadnezzar to the present Time…They declare themselves to be of the Tribe of Manasseh…”

The Book of Mormon, published 20 years later, reinforces the Maurice and Buchanan accounts. Not vice versa.

Only under the huge assumption, though, that Joseph had access to this information. If Buchanan's narrative was true, then it is evidence that supports the Book of Mormon's 600BC diaspora.

On 11/9/2024 at 8:08 PM, Zosimus said:

Evidence of Jesus visiting anybody after his death isn’t available. But there is evidence that Christians in the time of Moroni believed that Jesus appeared in a distant nation, east of Jerusalem. The Revelation of the Magi talks about a people at the farthest eastern edges of the world that received revelations of the birth of Christ. Following his death, Christ personally visited these people. The text mentions the apostle Thomas also visited these people to establish the Church among them following the visit of Christ. This must be referring to the Thomas Christians, who lived alongside the Cochin Jews. Centuries previous to the Revelation of the Magi, the Cochin Christians were claiming to be members of the church established by Thomas, immediately following Christ’s death.

Again, if true, this is totally consistent with the Book of Mormon.

On 11/9/2024 at 8:08 PM, Zosimus said:

It is true that this text would not have been known to Joseph Smith in 1829...

Just a flesh wound.

Quote

but he could have been familiar with the account through a text called the Opus Imperfectum, a 5th century Christian commentary on Matthew, which claims to come from a Book of Seth, but is actually dependent on the Revelation of the Magi source text.

There’s an interesting story about how the Smith family could have encountered the narrative originally found in the Revelation of the Magi. It would have been many years previous, in Vermont.

Phelps of course believed that the references to metal plates with inscriptions was evidence for the Book of Mormon. But this is difficult to support since those references were published before the Book of Mormon.

Only if it is proven that Joseph used it as a source.

Quote

We can know Joseph Smith was familiar with at least one of these sources because an editorial in the Times & Seasons summarizes the ideas of “learned moderns” regarding the migrations of Noah and or his sons into India before and after the tower of Babel. These ideas appear to come from either the Maurice text or the Adams text.

Oh my.

[Zosimus]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Only under the huge assumption, though, that Joseph had access to this information.

It is not a huge assumption at all. Buchanan's book was widely distributed and discussed from 1810 through the 1820s.

Again, these passages from a book I recently read discussing the book that inspired the formation of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions which sent the first American missionaries into the American frontier to preach and convert the native American Indians:

"An examination of the earliest American Baptist missionary records reveals that the Bible was not the only book that sent evangelists east; there was another book, and it, too, told of the life and teachings of Christ, but these sacred messages were said to have been buried under centuries of heathen darkness and superstition. This other book was an imagined ancient Indian manuscript.The fantastical idea of an ancient Christian Indian scripture was first circulated to America in 1809, when the sermon “The Star in the East” by Claudius Buchanan became popular reading in Protestant circles." (source)

So the same popular text that inspired the creation of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions in 1809 also contained an account of a group from the Tribe of Mannaseh fleeing Jerusalem and recording their journey on brass plates.

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Again, if true, this is totally consistent with the Book of Mormon.

That's also how I see it. But which account came first? There's a problem if Buchanan's earlier account is true history.

I've discussed elsewhere that the same missionaries that were so taken with Buchanan's contention that a recently discovered collection of Indian scriptures were consistent with the teachings of Christ, had also claimed to have discovered a gold book written by Israelites containing the spiritual history of the natives. I've seen the translation of that book in the church in the village where those American missionaries lived. The locals claim that the script that the gold book was written in was revealed to them by an angel in a white robe on a hill.

So my question for you. Do you believe the gold book in Burma is a true history of Israelites? Or is it a fabrication by Americans from New York (13 miles from where Joseph Smith Sr. was born) who had read The Star in the East in the 1810s/1820s?

Edited November 16, 2024 by Zosimus

[Zosimus]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Oh my.

Why? The Times & Seasons editorial says "In the opinion of the most learned among the moderns". Who?

The ideas in that editorial were not common Joseph Smith's time. Where did he read the opinions he was sharing? The text that comes closest to the opinions shared in the editorial is Maurice.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, Zosimus said:

It is not a huge assumption at all. Buchanan's book was widely distributed and discussed from 1810 through the 1820s.

It’s a huge assumption that Joseph read or discussed this. 

 

15 hours ago, Zosimus said:

I've discussed elsewhere that the same missionaries that were so taken with Buchanan's contention that a recently discovered collection of Indian scriptures were consistent with the teachings of Christ, had also claimed to have discovered a gold book written by Israelites containing the spiritual history of the natives. I've seen the translation of that book in the church in the village where those American missionaries lived. The locals claim that the script that the gold book was written in was revealed to them by an angel in a white robe on a hill.

It’s totally possible.  Not only that, it’s promised in the Book of Mormon. 

The Lord teaches the words that he sees fit that they should have to all nations in their own tongues.

God is mindful of every people, whatsoever land they may be in. He numbers his people, and his bowels of mercy are over all the earth.

Don’t you know that there are more nations than one? Don’t you know that the Lord your God has created all men, and that he remembers those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that he rules in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and he bring forth his word unto the children of men, yes, even upon all the nations of the earth?

He commands all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which he speaks unto them; for out of the books which shall be written he will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

He shall speak to the Jews and they shall write it; and he shall also speak to the Nephites and they shall write it; and he shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which he has led away, and they shall write it; and he shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

The Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

15 hours ago, Zosimus said:

So my question for you. Do you believe the gold book in Burma is a true history of Israelites? Or is it a fabrication by Americans from New York (13 miles from where Joseph Smith Sr. was born) who had read The Star in the East in the 1810s/1820s?

Here’s what I believe…

The three Nephite disciples will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles will not recognize them. They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews will not recognize them. When the Lord sees fit in his wisdom, they will minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and will bring many souls out of them unto Jesus. They are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man seems them good.

I believe one of them, under the name of Clemente, visited and taught some of our family’s friends. 

 

Quote

 

January 1, 1997

A MAN CALLED CLEMENTE

As recollected and written by [Mamacita Gui]

This story covers a span of twenty nine years from 1932 to 1961. The characters involved are a little Indian boy named Eugene, his mother, a little Indian girl named Isabel, and a man who called himself Clemente.

The locale is an Indian Pueblo named Santa Clara situated near the Rio Grande river in New Mexico. During the Spanish Colonial era, Catholic missions were established on or near Indian Pueblos all along the Rio Grande. The Spanish assigned a patron saint to each pueblo, and many were named after their saint; such as Santo Domingo, San Felipe, San Juan, and Santa Clara. Every year each pueblo celebrates a Feast Day in honor of their patron saint.

Catholicism was forced upon these people by the Spanish Padres, and so many of the Indians practice dual religions even today. Feast Days begin with an early Catholic mass. Feasting and sacred dancing follows throughout the day. Visitors are invited into homes, and relatives who are living elsewhere return for the occasion -- uniting families.

When Isabel was a small child, her mother died. Eugene's mother took Isabel into her home to care for her as her own. The year was 1932, and the nation was in the middle of the Great Depression. Food was scarce, but the Feast Day had to be celebrated. In the afternoon the dancers emerged from the kiva, a sacred place in the earth, to perform at the pueblo. Eugene was one of the singers to the loud beating of the drums. The performers were surrounded by a ring of family members and visitors. A stranger appeared in the crowd. He was carrying a large leather bag. Eugene's mother told Eugene to invite this stranger to their house to eat of the feast. The man tells them his name is Clemente. Over the next few years Clemente always arrived on the Feast Day which is on the 12th of August, and he would only visit Eugene's home.

He loved the children and was very kind to them. He told them many stories and taught them many things, and always carried the large leather bag. One time Isabel asked Clemente what he carried in the bag. He told her that it was full of records and very heavy. He never let the bag out of his sight nor anyone to touch it; however, once he allowed Isabel to touch the bag, but it was much too heavy for her to lift.

Clemente would tell the children of his being in trenches with soldiers, or traveling from Taos that same morning which was quite a distance from Santa Clara in those days. Another story he told them was about visiting the San Juan Pueblo. He was hungry and needed shelter one night, so he knocked on the door of a prosperous appearing home and asked for food. The woman was unkind and sent him away. He then stopped at a poorer house and was taken in for the night. The next year when he traveled through San Juan, the once prosperous family was having financial hardships, and the struggling family that took him in was faring quite well.

As Clemente left one morning, the mother called the children to the window. They watched as he walked down the highway and were amazed because they both noticed he seemed to be walking a few inches above the ground. 

Eugene and Isabel grew up. They loved each other and so were married. They moved to Utah to seek employment. The following years brought three daughters and one son into the family. Eugene provided for them and enjoyed hunting and fishing on the weekends.

Soon after the family settled in Utah, the Relief Society Visiting Teachers from the Church of Latter-Day Saints began to visit and LDS [Ward] Teachers came regularly. Isabel was very receptive, but Eugene would not even remain in the house when they came. He wanted nothing to do with them. A window was left open on one warm day when they came to visit. As Eugene left the house, he overheard something that caught his ear; so he knelt down under the window and listened. He soon recognized that what they were telling Isabel and teaching his children were the same teachings he had heard when Clemente visited them while he was growing up. Eugene continued his weekend fishing or hunting.

Then, one Sunday morning as he and Isabel were driving to his favorite fishing hole, he asked Isabel what she was reading. She replied, "The Book of Mormon.” Eugene turned the car around and headed back for town telling Isabel he was going to church. Isabel suspected he was returning to the Catholic Church; but instead, Eugene drove up and parked at an LDS Chapel. Not long after that, they were both baptized.

Soon after their LDS baptism, they decided to move back to Santa Clara, New Mexico, to take the Gospel to their own people. Here they were not really accepted. Their children were spat upon, ridiculed, and mistreated by the other children. This went on for a few years, then things changed; they became very well respected and influential at the Pueblo. Eugene was elected judge, which is a very highly respected position. In the meantime, Eugene started to build a house for his family but didn't know how to make or lay adobe walls, the thick mud and straw bricks used for construction in northern New Mexico. Clemente suddenly appeared and told Eugene to go to San Juan Pueblo, for there he would find a man to help him with the adobes and would not charge very much for his labor.

After the house was finished, Clemente came for another visit wanting to bless the house. He blessed it to be a haven for the family and to become a holy place. This was the last they ever saw of Clemente. Many LDS missionaries have been sheltered and fed in that home. Church meetings were held there as the few members developed into a branch with Eugene as Branch President. The branch then became part of the Española Ward with Eugene as a Bishop's Counselor and later a High Councilman.

It was the 1970's when my husband [Bernard Sr.] and I were on a mission to the Lamanites at Santa Clara where we first met Branch President Eugene and his wife Isabel holding meetings in their home. Isabel worked as Primary President, Relief Society President, and as a teacher in the MIA. In later years the couple were temple workers at the Arizona Temple. Isabel still works there as Eugene passed away around 1992.

Their children have all attended Brigham Young University. The oldest daughter traveled with the Lamanite Generation, and the son and second daughter have both fulfilled missions. One year Eugene and Isabel traveled to Salt Lake City to meet with the General Authorities. They related their story and all these happenings and asked if Clemente could possibly be one of the three Nephites mentioned in the Book of Mormon. The Authorities would only say that they could not say, but that Clemente's mission with them was completed.

 

[Zosimus]

On 11/17/2024 at 12:10 AM, Bernard Gui said:

It’s a huge assumption that Joseph read or discussed this. 

Its really not. Buchanan's sermon was published in 1809 and was widely known and discussed for decades after. Here's one example in a sermon given by Francis Brown in 1814. Brown was elected President of Dartmouth in 1815. 

"I know not of an instance better suited to illustrate these remarks, than that of the Rev. Dr. Buchanan—a name which I presume, is well known to nearly all who hear me. The effect which his numerous works, especially his "Christian Researches in Asia," have had on the religious public in Europe and America, is beyond calculation. He has electrified the Christian world. And he continues to exert a great and most salutary influence, as widely as the English language is known...A thousand Doctor Buchanans could scarcely have accomplished so much for the benefit of mankind by the powers of speech merely, as one has accomplished by help of the press." (source)

If Brown presumed that Buchanan was well known to nearly all who might hear him, why would it be a huge assumption that the Smiths, who lived less than 5 miles from Francis Brown in 1815, would have also known or discussed Buchanan?

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Its really not. Buchanan's sermon was published in 1809 and was widely known and discussed for decades after. Here's one example in a sermon given by Francis Brown in 1814. Brown was elected President of Dartmouth in 1815. 

"I know not of an instance better suited to illustrate these remarks, than that of the Rev. Dr. Buchanan—a name which I presume, is well known to nearly all who hear me. The effect which his numerous works, especially his "Christian Researches in Asia," have had on the religious public in Europe and America, is beyond calculation. He has electrified the Christian world. And he continues to exert a great and most salutary influence, as widely as the English language is known...A thousand Doctor Buchanans could scarcely have accomplished so much for the benefit of mankind by the powers of speech merely, as one has accomplished by help of the press." (source)

If Brown presumed that Buchanan was well known to nearly all who might hear him, why would it be a huge assumption that the Smiths, who lived less than 5 miles from Francis Brown in 1815, would have also known or discussed Buchanan?

Well, yes it is. It's wishful thinking.

For example, in 1833 Philastus Hurlbut scrounged around for Joseph's source and came up with a whole bunch of folks who swore he cribbed the BoM from Spalding's magnum opus, which of course turned out to be a laughable bust. Many folks including Spalding's widow attested to the fact the books were in effect identical, even down to "it came to pass." Many claimed that the Smiths were lazy and untrustworthy drunkards only interested in magic and chicanery. None of these folks claimed that Joseph frequented libraries, attended lectures, spoke coherently about history and religion, hobnobbed with the local intelligentsia, took notes as he read esoteric tomes in the library, or talked with them or anyone else about such things. Perhaps he was just a passive listener, secreting away vast stores of esoterica. Howe's 1834 Mormonism Unvailed makes no mention of such activity. He surely would have ferreted this out and exposed Joseph's fraud. 

If such things were the talk of the town for decades and the minimally-educated dullard Joseph Smith was sponging it all up to be used later to fabricate his first and one-and-only magnum opus, it's curious that no one pointed out the obvious: "Joseph Smith got those ideas from Brown, Buchanan, Adams, et alia." 

But they didn't, because he didn't.

 

[Zosimus]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, yes it is. It's wishful thinking.

For example, in 1833 Philastus Hurlbut scrounged around for Joseph's source and came up with a whole bunch of folks who swore he cribbed the BoM from Spalding's magnum opus, which of course turned out to be a laughable bust. Many folks including Spalding's widow attested to the fact the books were in effect identical, even down to "it came to pass." Many claimed that the Smiths were lazy and untrustworthy drunkards only interested in magic and chicanery.

Have you read Spaulding's story? Even if its not an influence on the Book of Mormon, it's existence years before the Book of Mormon was published proves my point. That it is not at all wishful thinking to imagine that someone in America in the early 19th century could write a story about people from the Old World traveling to the New World and recording their accounts on books or scrolls or plates. It was also not uncommon for people to claim these accounts had later been found in caves or burial mounds. Spaulding made that claim about his book.

Manuscript Found is evidence that people who had lived around Hanover, NH were capable of writing stories about the origins of Native Americans. Ethan Smith, who also lived in that area, is yet another example. Joseph was the third person from that area to produce a similar story.

Quote

None of these folks claimed that Joseph frequented libraries, attended lectures, spoke coherently about history and religion, hobnobbed with the local intelligentsia, took notes as he read esoteric tomes in the library, or talked with them or anyone else about such things. Perhaps he was just a passive listener, secreting away vast stores of esoterica. Howe's 1834 Mormonism Unvailed makes no mention of such activity. He surely would have ferreted this out and exposed Joseph's fraud. 

I've shared earlier the comments of William Hyde. He said Joseph Smith Sr. would visit him frequently and discuss intelligently a number of topics for hours, including discussions about the former inhabitants of the Americas. Hyde also said Joseph Smith Sr. had an incredible memory and could recall entire chapters of books that he had read.

Lucy Mack Smith said that Asael had thrown Thomas Paine's Age of Reason at Joseph Smith Sr. bidding him to read it until he believed it. This seems to be confirmed by a response to Joseph Smith Jr's letter to the Green Mountain Boys in which its said that Joseph Smith Sr. would frequently declare that the writings of Voltaire were the best Bible then extent and Thomas Paine the best commentary. Have you read the writings of Voltaire? There's so much information there, and yes esoteric stuff like Book of Enoch and apocryphal gospels, I'll have to open another thread about it later.

In short, the Smiths weren't ignorant. They read books. They participated in discussions about books. They were intelligent and informed and they sat together to talk often. Just look at everything they did after the publication of the Book of Mormon. You can certainly argue that they were ignorant and lazy drunkards up until April 6, 1830 and then all the sudden they started reading, discussing, preaching and publishing like mad. But that seems a weak argument to me.

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If such things were the talk of the town for decades and the minimally-educated dullard Joseph Smith was sponging it all up to be used later to fabricate his first and one-and-only magnum opus, it's curious that no one pointed out the obvious: "Joseph Smith got those ideas from Brown, Buchanan, Adams, et alia." But they didn't, because he didn't.

Like I mentioned earlier, there were other American missionaries (eg. the group Brown was addressing in his sermon linked above) that were inspired by Buchanan's account. The first group of missionaries departed from Salem in 1812, the year before Joseph was there with his Uncle Jesse. Those missionaries also discovered a lost gold book containing the spiritual history of the natives. The accounts of these missionaries were widely published in America. However, It wasn't until last year (2023) that someone connected the origins of the story of the Burma gold book to Buchanan's account in the Star in the East. Why do you suppose that is?

Edited November 20, 2024 by Zosimus

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Have you read Spaulding's story? Even if its not an influence on the Book of Mormon, it's existence years before the Book of Mormon was published proves my point. That it is not at all wishful thinking to imagine that someone in America in the early 19th century could write a story about people from the Old World traveling to the New World and recording their accounts on books or scrolls or plates. It was also not uncommon for people to claim these accounts had later been found in caves or burial mounds. Spaulding made that claim about his book.

Manuscript Found is evidence that people who had lived around Hanover, NH were capable of writing stories about the origins of Native Americans. Ethan Smith, who also lived in that area, is yet another example. Joseph was the third person from that area to produce a similar story.

Yes, I have studied both Smith and Spalding, the latter in depth. VOTH was a scholarly attempt to harmonize what had been observed of Native Americans with a Christian understanding of Hebrew scripture. The other just a badly written romance devoid of religion. The Book of Mormon is neither. That the Reverends Smith (Dartmouth College graduate, ordained minister, age 61 at time of writing) and Spalding (Dartmouth College graduate, ordained minister, age around 80 at the time of writing) could write books about Native Americans has no bearing on Joseph Smith's abilities (even if he had read and memorized both of them) which is the subject of this thread. None of Joseph's contemporaries ever suggested he cribbed from Ethan Smith. The attempt to link him to Spalding fails on even the slightest investigation. Though they may share a few things in common, the authors and their books  stand apart from each other in the most significant ways.

Humans have hidden records in caves, tombs, and mounds since pre-historic times. Qumran comes to mind in this setting. From the earliest European contacts to the present time Native American origins have been a rich source of speculation. That New Englanders hypothesized on their origins comes at no surprise. The debate still rages today, fueled by genetic science. 

20 hours ago, Zosimus said:

I've shared earlier the comments of William Hyde. He said Joseph Smith Sr. would visit him frequently and discuss intelligently a number of topics for hours, including discussions about the former inhabitants of the Americas. Hyde also said Joseph Smith Sr. had an incredible memory and could recall entire chapters of books that he had read.

On its face, this is not plausible. Perhaps what really happened is that Joseph Jr. shared with his family that which Moroni was instructing him in preparation for the work of translation, and in conversations with Hyde and others Father Smith told of these things. No one that I am aware of claimed that Father Smith had eidetic memory

20 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Lucy Mack Smith said that Asael had thrown Thomas Paine's Age of Reason at Joseph Smith Sr. bidding him to read it until he believed it. This seems to be confirmed by a response to Joseph Smith Jr's letter to the Green Mountain Boys in which its said that Joseph Smith Sr. would frequently declare that the writings of Voltaire were the best Bible then extent and Thomas Paine the best commentary.** Have you read the writings of Voltaire? There's so much information there, and yes esoteric stuff like Book of Enoch and apocryphal gospels, I'll have to open another thread about it later.

Excellent. A French source for the Book of Mormon. And the Pearl of Great Price, too. Would you please provide a list of your proposed sources Joseph used to produce  the Book of Mormon? Buchanan, Adams, Brown, Voltaire, Paine, Ethan Smith, newspaper accounts, college lectures, libraries, community discussions, Smith family reading lists........? Hurlbut and Howe missed all this?

**Please provide sources for the bolded statements?

20 hours ago, Zosimus said:

In short, the Smiths weren't ignorant. They read books. They participated in discussions about books. They were intelligent and informed and they sat together to talk often. Just look at everything they did after the publication of the Book of Mormon. You can certainly argue that they were ignorant and lazy drunkards up until April 6, 1830 and then all the sudden they started reading, discussing, preaching and publishing like mad. But that seems a weak argument to me.

👉Straw man alert 👈  No one (except their neighbors) thinks they were ignorant and lazy drunkards. I celebrate what they accomplished physically, intellectually, and spiritually; however,  they were by no means the mental giants you seem to think they were. Certainly not Joseph between 1805 and 1827. In fact the bulk of what they achieved (outside the phenomenal labors on their farms) did come after the Restoration began.

We have come full circle back to the original question: could Joseph have written the Book of Mormon? IMO, no.

 

Edited November 20, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8

On 11/19/2024 at 9:45 PM, Zosimus said:

Like I mentioned earlier, there were other American missionaries (eg. the group Brown was addressing in his sermon linked above) that were inspired by Buchanan's account. The first group of missionaries departed from Salem in 1812, the year before Joseph was there with his Uncle Jesse. Those missionaries also discovered a lost gold book containing the spiritual history of the natives. The accounts of these missionaries were widely published in America.  

However, It wasn't until last year (2023) that someone connected the origins of the story of the Burma gold book to Buchanan's account in the Star in the East. Why do you suppose that is?

I have no idea why that would be. If I recall correctly, there is/was a member here who was making a case that the BoM actually was the history of people in Burma.

Please answer this CFR. It’s one of the board rules. 

On 11/20/2024 at 3:00 PM, Bernard Gui said:

This seems to be confirmed by a response to Joseph Smith Jr's letter to the Green Mountain Boys in which its said that Joseph Smith Sr. would frequently declare that the writings of Voltaire were the best Bible then extent and Thomas Paine the best commentary.**

 

[Zosimus]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have no idea why that would be. If I recall correctly, there is/was a member here who was making a case that the BoM actually was the history of people in Burma.

That's been me, arguing for that for a good ten years or more here. But I couldn't demonstrate that the Karen gold book legend was any more ancient than the American missionaries that arrived there in 1828. The book I link to above, published iast year, provided confirmation that the missionaries were the source of the gold book legend as it was known to Americans in the 1800s.

As much as I don't love that conclusion, I'll follow the data, even if it goes against what I'd previously believed

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please answer this CFR. It’s one of the board rules. 

Apologies, i've been traveling for holidays. You can find that here. I've shared this reference here in other threads on this board, but there are missing lines in the Uncle Dale version, including the important bit about hindoo shastras, which would be referring to Voltaire's discussion about JZ Holwell's translations of the gentoo shastras. More on that later.

Edited November 25, 2024 by Zosimus

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Zosimus said:

That's been me, arguing for that for a good ten years or more here. But I couldn't demonstrate that the Karen gold book legend was any more ancient than the American missionaries that arrived there in 1828. The book I link to above, published iast year, provided confirmation that the missionaries were the source of the gold book legend as it was known to Americans in the 1800s.

As much as I don't love that conclusion, I'll follow the data, even if it goes against what I'd previously believed.

Thanks. I knew some of this sounded familiar. I should have figured it out. 

4 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Apologies, i've been traveling for holidays. You can find that here. I've shared this reference here in other threads on this board, but there are missing lines in the Uncle Dale version, including the important bit about hindoo shastras, which would be referring to Voltaire's discussion about JZ Holwell's translations of the gentoo shastras. More on that later.

Joseph’s contemporaries ED Howe, Philastus Hurlbut, and Abner Cole took it upon themselves to investigate, expose, and destroy Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Why did they and their correspondents not mention any of these sources that you have proposed? 

[Zosimus]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Joseph’s contemporaries ED Howe, Philastus Hurlbut, and Abner Cole took it upon themselves to investigate, expose, and destroy Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Why did they and their correspondents not mention any of these sources that you have proposed? 

Howe, Hurlbut and Cole were trying to demonstrate that the Book of Mormon was full of absurdities and contradictions. The Buchanan account would have been evidence that the Book of Mormon was historically accurate. Why would they draw attention to any data that went against their efforts?

Do you doubt that the Buchanan account of Israelites with brass plates fleeing Jerusalem in 600 BC was not known in the Hanover-Turnbridge area in the 1810s-1820s?

What exactly in the Book of Mormon was beyond the capabilities of Joseph Smith in 1829?

[Kevin Christensen]

On 11/25/2024 at 1:31 PM, Zosimus said:

Howe, Hurlbut and Cole were trying to demonstrate that the Book of Mormon was full of absurdities and contradictions. The Buchanan account would have been evidence that the Book of Mormon was historically accurate. Why would they draw attention to any data that went against their efforts?

Do you doubt that the Buchanan account of Israelites with brass plates fleeing Jerusalem in 600 BC was not known in the Hanover-Turnbridge area in the 1810s-1820s?

What exactly in the Book of Mormon was beyond the capabilities of Joseph Smith in 1829?

Howe, Hurbut, and Cole were also trying to explain the Book of Mormon.  The neighbors expected an absurd silly book (see The Book of Pukei) and when Joseph produced a formidable book, they looked for other potential authors such as Spaulding or Rigdon.  At the time, no one mentioned View of the Hebrews or The Great War.  John Gee noticed the implications of Pukei, Manuscript Found, and View of the Hebrews:

Quote

All three accounts show bias towards Latin in phraseology
and cultural background and discuss subjects that were
common at the time: satire, romance, money digging,
and speculation about the lost ten tribes. All three also
depict the inhabitants of the New World as resembling the
Native American tribes in the vicinity of New York and
New England. As has been shown, the natives described
in the Book of Mormon are not the Native Americans of
the world of Joseph Smith. Further, the Book of Mormon
scarcely mentions the major subjects of the Book of Pukei
or “Manuscript Found,” and it treats the subject of View
of the Hebrews very differently. Moreover, rather than
reflecting Latin influences, the Book of Mormon bears
trademark features of having come from an ancient Near
Eastern background—all the more remarkable because
it was translated half a dozen years before Joseph Smith
started studying Hebrew.

https://scripturecentral.org/archive/books/book-chapter/wrong-type-book

As to parallels, parallels are extremely common.  If the Book of Mormon provides anything relevant to its readership, then that means parallels exist.  Would it be more impressive if it were incomprehensible and irrelevant?  So it's not just parallels, but also contrasts, and even more importantly, the particulars of what it says.  For instance, the particulars of Jerusalem 600 BCE.  In The Great Angel, Margaret Barker observed that the exile in Babylon provides a great obstacle to anyone trying to reconstruct what was going in in Jerusalem 600BCE.  Joseph Smith and Barker use very different methods and sources.  It would not be surprising if their pictures were mutually contradictory and very different.  Indeed, Barker used the evidence of pre-Christian writings preserved only by Christian writers and discovered only by the accidents of archeology subsequent to the production of the Book of Mormon.

We have the Book of Mormon picture and the picture provided by the most recent research. 

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/mi/39/ 

And there is the journey from Jerusalem to Bountiful.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/books/into-arabia/

And there is the problem of Jaredite culture and Epic literature

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/mi/50/.

And there is the issue of the New World context, as explored by Sorenson, Gardner, Wright, and others.

https://scripturecentral.org/archive/books/book-chapter/book-mormon-mesoamerican-record

https://fairlatterdaysaints.org/store/product/traditions-of-the-fathers-the-book-of-mormon-as-history/

And there are countless other aspects of the Book of Mormon, such as Ben McGuire's essay showing that parallels between the story of Nephi and Laban and David and Goliath all fit on one side of two different accounts spliced together in the Bible, or the NDE parallels to Alma, and the techniques of type scenes and allusion recovered by Robert Alter's revolutionary 1980 book, The Art of Biblical Narrative, and the impressive work on the evidence of Hebrew word play explored by Matthew Bowen in dozens of essays, and the elaborate literary complexities and ritual backgrounds for Mosiah's discourse.  And the money system and dating correlations Robert Smith has explored.  And much more, including the distinct theory of the Atonement, comparisons to 40 Day accounts, the complexities of warfare, compared to the theories of Clausewitz, Mao Tse Tung, Che Guevera and other notables.  And the recent interesting revolutionary LiDar surveys, which had the potential to severely undercut the Book of Mormon picture, but instead, supported what had been thought to be unrealistic excesses.

Rather than deal with any of this, I have noticed that most critics like to cite a few high level parallels, and to ignore the vast majority of this work.  Nibley observed that Book of Mormon critics have made an art of explaining the whole of the Book of Mormon via a very small part.  

In The Older Testament, Barker quoted remarks by Steiner that:

Quote

When  the artist must be the architect of his own mythology, time is against him.  He cannot live long enough to impose his special vision and the symbols he has devised for it on the habits and language on his society... without an orthodox or public frame to support it... it does not take root in the public soil.  (Barker, 4)

Some of the parallels, such as writing on metal (what other material would survive from ancient times), and Hebraic origins for Native Americans, are not odd, but rather, answer the demands of the situation, or mask some crucial differences.  Lehi and Mulek and the Jaredites are all different than Lost 10 Tribes notions.  The power of the ingrained mythology provided both a soil in which the Book of Mormon could take root, but also a distortion field that interferes with comprehension of the text.  A good example of that is Harold Bloom's claim that that Book of Mormon is about the Lost 10 tribes.  Bloom admitted to a student that he had not read the Book of Mormon.

Kuhn's criteria include testability, accuracy of key predictions, comprehensiveness and coherence, fruitfulness, simplicity and aesthetics, and future promise.  I have yet to see any environmental approach that seriously accounts for the Book of Mormon in depth and breadth and detail.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited November 27, 2024 by Kevin Christensen
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