Joseph Smith's Schooling/Vocabulary to produce The Book of Mormon

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Zosimus said:

I have nephews that have never seen a day in a public school, and they are arguably more educated than many high school grads.

🙃alert.

I have relatives who are smarter than many PhDs I know. 🙂

12 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Joseph's father was a teacher. Grandma Mack was also a teacher. Hyrum could have been his tutor. The Mack's valued education, as we see with Stephen Mack Jr., Joseph's cousin, was also from Turnbridge and attended Moors with Hyrum. He went on to establish educational centers in the frontier, one of which became Rockford College. In Illinois, there's even a Stephen Mack Middle School and a Hononegah High School, named after Stephen Mack's wife, two hundred years later.

I taught at Rock Valley College and had several colleagues at Rockford College. We even joined forces to form a community orchestra. 

When you say they were teachers, what exactly do you have in mind? What were their credentials and areas of expertise? College education, state certification, advanced degrees, publications, keys to the faculty lounge? 

My cousin Inteligentissimo graduated from West Point and entered the Corps of Engineers. He became Ranger, Airborne, Cold Weather, and Mountain Warfare qualified. He was appointed to lead a team in the creation of one of the first four Titan II missile silos. After obtaining advanced degrees in physics he was employed by General Dynamics, where he worked in their non-destructive testing laboratory. The projects that he worked on there included the Moon Lander, Space Shuttle, Cruise Missiles and many others.

All of that, of course, rubbed off on me as reflected in my illustrious career as a public school orchestra teacher.

12 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Bright kids, from families that valued education, could learn a lot if they had the drive. I've been reading the works of Hannah Adams. Hannah never attended school. She learned at home under the care of her father. Almost entirely self-taught, Hannah Adams would go on to write:

• View of Religious Opinions (1784)
• A Summary History of New England (1799)
• Evidences of Christianity (1801)
• The Truth and Excellence of the Christian Religion (1804)
• An Abridgment of the History of New-England: For the Use of Young Persons: Now Introduced into the Principal Schools in this Town (1807)
• History of the Jews (1812)
• Controversy with Dr. Morse (1814)
• A Dictionary of All Religions and Religious Denominations (1817)
• Letters on the Gospels (1824; second edition 1826)

There seems to be some discrepancy here. Joseph’s contemporaries called this “driven bright kid from an education-loving family” an illiterate, expressionless, dull, uneducated, impudent, deluded, stupid, knavish, peasant-like imposter and ignoramus from a family of like characters…and this in those very communities where he was studiously gleaning vast amounts of religious knowledg in the libraries and conversing with the learned populace in local parks and inns. 

Indeed, Hannah’s story is remarkably similar to Joseph’s. I learned in Wikipedia that…

Quote

Being delicate in health, [Hannah] did not attend the neighborhood school, but, under the care of her father [a Harvard College graduate], learned at home, namely, reading, writing and arithmetic. She was enthusiastic over poetry, committing much of the works of her favorite poets…

She did not neglect history or biography, in which she found, as she said, an inexhaustible fund to "feast her mind and gratify her taste." She was fond of novels, the reading of which, in the seclusion of her early years, gave her, she afterwards said, false ideas of life, the "world her imagination made being not what the real world was." Indeed, all her life she felt the lack of thorough training in her youth.

By the time she was 20 years of age, few women at that time had read more than she. Her chief delight being in literary pursuits, she eagerly accepted the offer of some gentlemen boarding at her father's house, to teach her Latin, Greek, geography and logic.

Well, at least they shared confusion about the state of religion at the time.

And Joseph read which books and went on to write…….?

Quote

• Access to books certainly helps. But I think there's very little to support the argument that Joseph didn't have access to the books he'd need to do what he was able to do. For example, he could have picked up the basics of nearly everything Hannah Adams knew about religion from one book, her "Dictionary of All Religions and Religious Denominations", which was in the Manchester Library. In History of the Jews, she talks about the different arguments supporting the claims that the Jews scattered to places as far away as the Americas, and she has some interesting comments on them being "the natural branches of the Olive Tree" broken off by unbelief, to "be grafted in again".*

He may have had potential access to all kinds of books. Do you have evidence that he spent time reading books and taking copious notes in the Manchester Library? 

*Call for references please. 

Quote

After going through many of the books that were circulating in Joseph's youth, I do believe we underestimate the information that was available and the conversations that were happening in towns like Hanover and Palmyra. You didn't need to sit in a classroom to participate in, and learn from, those discussions

When you say “circulating” what exactly do you mean? Is there evidence that Adams’ book was widely read and discussed by residents in those communities?

Edited November 2, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

And the time. 

And interest.

[MiserereNobis]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

All of that, of course, rubbed off on me as reflected in my illustrious career as an orchestra teacher.

Hey, at least your salary was worth it!

[webbles]

6 hours ago, Frank11 said:

Is that really what is taught in Sunday school, would be very sad? But since some people like it, that's probably the case.

It's good that Jesus always explains himself, in this case the core statement is Mark 11:17.

"And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves."

I found the following commentary on this:

The first half of Jesus' quote is from Isaiah 56:7. Isaiah 56:3–8 prophesies about Gentiles who will worship God, and how God is faithful to them. God promises to bring non-Jews who choose Him over their families to His mountain, give them joy, and accept their offerings. This will be entirely fulfilled in the millennial kingdom, but God's purpose for Israel always included blessing Gentiles (Isaiah 42:6).

The second half of Jesus' condemnation is from Jeremiah 7:11: "Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes?" The courtyard once dedicated to God-worshiping Gentiles is now filled with money changers, bird merchants, and locals who think of it as a common shortcut. They are "robbing" Gentiles of space dedicated for worship and prayer to God. They are robbing the customers through inflated prices and opportunism.

Jesus isn't addressing the offerings due to the priests. The Bible establishes that the priests deserve to be supported by the Israelites (Deuteronomy 18:1) just like Christian teachers deserve to make a living from their work for the kingdom (1 Corinthians 9:8–12). Jesus is speaking to laymen who are abusing the devotion of God-worshipers for their own gain. 

I'm sure there are many other commentaries, but I'd be surprised if there was one that supported your view.

That proves my point.  If someone believes in Christ, they can find commentaries, explanations, etc that explains away the issue so that they don't have to deal with it.  If they can't explain away the issue (maybe they don't agree with that commentary), then they can focus on other aspects of Christ's life to continue believing in Him.

Same with Joseph and polygamy.  If they believe Joseph is a prophet, then they can find commentaries, explanations, etc to explain away the polygamy.  Or, they focus on other aspects of his life, such as the Book of Mormon translation.

[Kevin Christensen]

23 hours ago, Frank11 said:

1. As I mentioned earlier, I cannot address every point as I lack the scientific basis to adequately review and assess it. It is similar to the ‘slippery treasures’. I'm sure there's an ancient oriental text somewhere that mentions sunken treasure, but it's more likely that the ‘slippery treasures’ in the Book of Mormon came from the 19th century folk-magic scene. I didn't actually notice it in the Book of Mormon at first because I thought it was a metaphorical description, but knowing the stories that were told in the Joseph Smith treasure hunts at the time, I now realise that it was meant much more physically in the Book of Mormon.

2. Apart from a few sectarian groups, you will not find any religion or culture that does not find it reprehensible to interfere with an existing marital relationship. Whether sex or not, even the desire or the attempt to interfere is reprehensible. You don't have to be religious to understand that. Even if it is already explicitly stated in the 10 commandments ‘Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife’, it also makes a lot of sense for a strong community. Because disregarding it inevitably leads to disputes between people, that weakens the community. 

As you have already correctly surmised, I see the women's statements in a completely different light. Firstly, some women also clearly rejected Joseph Smith's offer, and secondly, in many of the statements I see the considerable psychological pressure under which the women agreed to the sealing. Incidentally, we have a very similar situation with the surviving women of Waco, who, no wonder, became David Koresh's wives due to a ‘divine’ instruction to him, although some of them were already married. In the interviews, the women repeatedly mention that they felt chosen by God. Does this mean that Koresh had the right to marry or better take the women?

3. The first major critique published in the Nauvoo Expositor had nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. This is hardly surprising, because apart from a few passages that might be considered racist today, there is hardly anything morally wrong with the Book of Mormon. That is why, then as now, it is above all the character of Joseph Smith that is criticised. This criticism is then countered by focussing solely on the alleged evidence, be it the testimonies about the golden plates or that Joseph Smith was too uneducated and the Book of Mormon is too complex, so therefore Joseph Smith must be a divine prophet. This is exactly what I call ‘oversimplification, which can have unexpected negative consequences’. Because this way of thinking is a dream for every cult leader, guru or Muslim preacher of hate, whose first priority is to be blindly trusted. When this blind trust is established, red lines that are set by holy scriptures or common moral concepts can be crossed.

Every time a red line is crossed, one should be very, very sceptical.

 

Like I said, I don't expect you respond to every bit of evidence I brought up.  But since you have chosen to enter into a conversation with some well informed Latter-day Saint scholars who have wrestled with the same issues you have raised, just what you do with the evidence we offer is going to have a lot to do with how persuasive you are likely to be.  Kuhn talks about paradigm debates always involve deciding "Which problems are more significant to have solved?"  

Changing the subject entirely, from the 36 step coronation pattern in King Benjamin's sermon, among other things, to slippery treasures, is not the same as directly addressing the issues.  

In the Book of Helaman, Samuel's discourse includes a few references to slippery treasures as part a range of consequences due to disobedient Nephites.  You offer this up as a key to accounting for the Book of Mormon as a 19th century text composed by a criminally minded Joseph Smith.  Okay.  How good an explanation is that?  Is it the only possible explanation?  No.

Quote

This is equally significant for the Book of Mormon. Kevin Barney has observed that “it seems more than coincidental—yet not surprising—that the concept of slippery, disappearing treasures is found both in an Egyptian text known to the ancient Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, a record with cultural, linguistic, and literary roots in the ancient Near East.”14

Hugh Nibley and Blake Ostler have also drawn attention to the condemnation of the self-indulgence of the rich in 1 Enoch as another potential ancient parallel for the curses of Samuel in Helaman 13:31–36.15 1 Enoch 94:8 reads: “Woe to you, ye rich, for ye have trusted in your riches. And from your riches shall ye depart, because ye have not remembered the Most High in the days of your riches” (emphasis added).16 “Woe unto you who acquire silver and gold in unrighteousness, . . . for your riches shall not abide but speedily ascend from you; . . . and ye shall be given over to a great curse” (1 Enoch 97:8–10, emphasis added).17 As with the Book of Mormon, this concept of riches becoming a curse against the wicked in the text of 1 Enoch is probably derived, ultimately, from a biblical background.

https://scripturecentral.org/knowhy/why-did-samuel-say-the-wealth-of-some-nephites-would-become-slippery

So it is not the only possible explanation.  And far from explaining the Book of Mormon as a whole, can, at best, account for a handful of mentions a a few pages of a 500 page book.  So much for Kuhn's criteria of "comprehensive and coherent."  It took me minutes to find some detailed discussions of the issue.  What should I think about those who don't bother to look?  Not exactly a serious wrestle with the issue.

We then go to Joseph and polygamy and sealings, which are social history, not foundational issues.  

Quote

Firstly, some women also clearly rejected Joseph Smith's offer, and secondly, in many of the statements I see the considerable psychological pressure under which the women agreed to the sealing.

Nancy Rigdon famously rejected Joseph's offer.  The most recurrent story in the testimonies of the women sealed to Joseph Smith is that they were initially shocked.  He left them space and time.  They prayed on their own, and had a powerful spiritual confirmation, and accepted.   And none of the sealings outside of Emma produced any DNA evidence of offspring.

As to David Koresh, who, I notice, while he claimed to be a prophet, did not produce anything like the Book of Mormon, nor leave behind a community as successful as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  While anyone can claim to be a prophet or to claim that Joseph Smith and Koresh are cut from the same cloth, I notice that if I bring in the 28 Biblical Tests for Discerning True and False Prophets, I immediately see many crucial and telling points of contrast.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/prophettestsfv5.pdf

And Joseph, I notice, surrendered himself to protect his followers more than once.  Liberty Jail, and then Carthage.   When did Koresh do that?  And then there is the issue of a cult leader wanting blindly trusting followers...

Quote

"I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they
will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful that
they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the
hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwa[r]t the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give their leaders,
did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right
way. Let every man and woman know, by the whisperings of the Spirit of God to
themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. (Brigham Young)

And Joseph Smith...

Quote

If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I
cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man
to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

Both quotes appear in this important discussion of the topic.

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue1901_perspectives.pdf

And more thing about the David Koresh comparison.

Quote

One of the ruling illusions of Western metaphysics is that reason can somehow grasp the world without close attention to language and arrive at a pure, self-authenticating truth or method. Derrida’s work draws attention to the ways in which language deflects the philosopher’s project. He does this by focusing on metaphors and other figurative devices in the texts of philosophy…

His method consists of showing how the privileged term is held in place by the force of the dominant metaphor, and not, as it might seem, by any conclusive logic. (Madad Sarup, Post-Structuralism and Post Modernism (Athens: University of Georgia Press, 1993), (p 51-2)

The point of bringing in Koresh is to make Koresh a metaphor for Joseph Smith, a lens through which to view him. At the Library of Congress in 2005 Richard Bushman made this point about contextualization:

Quote

the context in which [Joseph Smith] is placed profoundly affects how people see the Prophet, since the history selected for a subject colors everything about it. Is he a money digger like hundreds of other superstitious Yankees in his day, a religious fanatic like Muhammad was thought to be in Joseph’s time, a prophet like Moses, a religious revolutionary like Jesus? To a large extent, Joseph Smith assumes the character of the history selected for him.

So given an unlimited set of contextualizations, the important thing for reasonable, productive investigations, is to have a way of evaluating them that is not ideologically dependent, not self referential. That must involve comparison and asking which is better in terms of puzzle definition and testability, accuracy of key predictions, fruitfulness, simplicity and aesthetics, and future promise , not just asserting one single narrow perspective, making a self-referential judgement, and declaring that one has seen all there is to see.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited November 2, 2024 by Kevin Christensen
Typo

[Zosimus]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

When you say they were teachers, what exactly do you have in mind? What were their credentials and areas of expertise? College education, state certification, advanced degrees, publications, keys to the faculty lounge? 

Not sure, I had learned that from the Interpreter article you shared earlier. Brian Hales didn't share any details beyond: "Joseph Smith grew up in a family that valued education. Both his father, Joseph Smith Sr., and grandmother, Lydia Mack, had taught school. Their academic involvement demonstrated their devotion to learning, probably making education a priority in their homes."

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

My cousin Inteligentissimo graduated from West Point and entered the Corps of Engineers. He became Ranger, Airborne, Cold Weather, and Mountain Warfare qualified. He was appointed to lead a team in the creation of one of the first four Titan II missile silos. After obtaining advanced degrees in physics he was employed by General Dynamics, where he worked in their non-destructive testing laboratory. The projects that he worked on there included the Moon Lander, Space Shuttle, Cruise Missiles and many others.

All of that, of course, rubbed off on me as reflected in my illustrious career as a public school orchestra teacher.

The opposite argument could be made. 200 years from now someone might look at his accomplishments as an engineer of intercontinental ballistic missiles, moon landers, and space shuttles and argue that there's no way a kid from a family/community of musicians from Rockford could have done that. Of course, that kind of argument isn't worth much.

The irony is that you know your cousin well enough to track his career from West Point to NASA. You know what he is capable of. Stephan Mack Jr, a cousin of Joseph and Hyrum with a very similar background, would have known Joseph and his capabilities. Stephen Mack Jr. probably read the Book of Mormon in the 1830s. As far as I know, Stephen Mack Jr. never joined the church. That makes me think he probably didn't believe that it was an impossible feat for Joseph. He probably understood it as something that Joseph was fully capable of producing by natural means.

I stand corrected if Stephen Mack Jr. did join the church and had a testimony that the Book of Mormon was a translation of a record written on gold plates. But I haven't been able to find evidence of that.

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

and this in those very communities where he was studiously gleaning vast amounts of religious knowledge in the libraries and conversing with the learned populace in local parks and inns. 

There's a couple interviews, one from an antagonistic source and another from the Deseret News, with a man named William Hyde who was a good friend of Joseph Smith Sr. and Martin Harris. He also knew Joseph Jr. and Oliver Cowdery. He said this about Joseph Sr.:

Antagonistic newspaper: "One evening in the early part of 1828 Smith senior visited me. He seemed to be such a solemn looking duck that I didn't court his friendship, but he was so entertaining that after conversing with him until after midnight, I told him to call often. He was a slim man about 5 feet 11, and always appeared to be in a deep study. From the time of his first visit until his religious scheme was sprung I don't believe he missed a night without stopping with me for at least three hours. There wasn't a subject he couldn't discuss intelligently, and my opinion of him was high. His memory was something extraordinary. He could repeat several chapters of a book verbatim after it had been read rapidly."

Follow up from Deseret News: "I was well acquainted with the elder Smith; he often came to see me, and we had many long talks together. I did not see much of the younger Smith. He seemed a very quiet, unassuming lad. For the Elder Smith I had the highest regard; he seemed well informed on every imaginable topic, and there was no subject upon which he could not talk intelligently."

These two sources with opposing biases both confirm William Hyde's assessment that his friend Joseph Smith Sr. was well-informed and he could speak intelligently on every imaginable subject, for hours at a time. This would be the environment Joseph Smith Jr. grew up in.

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

He may have had potential access to all kinds of books. Do you have evidence that he spent time reading books and taking copious notes in the Manchester Library? 

*Call for references please. 

I don't have evidence that Joseph Jr. was reading books and taking copious notes in the Manchester Library. But we know Joseph Smith Jr. did read books. There are accounts of him reading Arabian Nights and books on William Kidd.

However, more telling is the Hyde account above claiming that Joseph Smith Sr. was able to "repeat several chapters of a book verbatim after it had been read rapidly." Of course there's no evidence Joseph jr. could do this, but if his father had the ability to recite books from memory then Joseph Jr. would have had access to the content of books, even if he wasn't much of a reader.

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

When you say “circulating” what exactly do you mean? Is there evidence that Adams’ book was widely read and discussed by residents in those communities?

Well, Adams Dictionary had four editions, and was in the Manchester Library. That gives us some idea of how widely distributed it was in the Manchester area. I can't say if people were actually reading and discussing that particular book, but a reviewer of Adams' Dictionary at the time said that Adams was "in such full possession of public regard, from the benefit conferred by her writings, and the merits of her several publications are so generally known, that we do not deem it necessary to enter into an elaborate investigation of the manner in which she has executed this new edition of a very useful book" More recently, Michael Altman said "Adams's books were useful resources for the New England reading public to investigate the variety of religious beliefs throughout history." (source) 

Given Joseph Smith Sr.'s interest in religion, his ability to speak intelligently across a number of topics for hours day after day with friends, and his ability to recite pages of books from memory, I'd think it plausible that anything that was available in the Manchester Library would have been known to Joseph Smith Sr.. I also think it plausible that Joseph Smith Sr. discussed such things with his son, perhaps even reciting entire chapters of such books

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

Not sure, I had learned that from the Interpreter article you shared earlier. Brian Hales didn't share any details beyond: "Joseph Smith grew up in a family that valued education. Both his father, Joseph Smith Sr., and grandmother, Lydia Mack, had taught school. Their academic involvement demonstrated their devotion to learning, probably making education a priority in their homes."

Yes, but it says nothing about their abilities, accomplishments, expertise, or credentials as teachers. AFAIK, such details are not available. Valuing an education does not mean much in that context. School teaching then is nothing like it is now, so we should not project modern notions on them. Teachers were chosen more for their moral character than their intellectual prowess. Most teachers were young men who soon abandoned their situation for other more lucrative opportunities. In any case, the evidence shows that Joseph’s education was rudimentary.

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

The opposite argument could be made. 200 years from now someone might look at his accomplishments as an engineer of intercontinental ballistic missiles, moon landers, and space shuttles and argue that there's no way a kid from a family/community of musicians from Rockford could have done that. Of course, that kind of argument isn't worth much.

No, it’s not. He was from Arizona, by the way. 

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

The irony is that you know your cousin well enough to track his career from West Point to NASA. You know what he is capable of. Stephan Mack Jr, a cousin of Joseph and Hyrum with a very similar background, would have known Joseph and his capabilities. Stephen Mack Jr. probably read the Book of Mormon in the 1830s. As far as I know, Stephen Mack Jr. never joined the church. That makes me think he probably didn't believe that it was an impossible feat for Joseph. He probably understood it as something that Joseph was fully capable of producing by natural means.

Probably? How can we know that?

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

I stand corrected if Stephen Mack Jr. did join the church and had a testimony that the Book of Mormon was a translation of a record written on gold plates. But I haven't been able to find evidence of that.

Yep. That’s a problem. 

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

There's a couple interviews, one from an antagonistic source and another from the Deseret News, with a man named William Hyde who was a good friend of Joseph Smith Sr. and Martin Harris. He also knew Joseph Jr. and Oliver Cowdery. He said this about Joseph Sr.:

Antagonistic newspaper: "One evening in the early part of 1828 Smith senior visited me. He seemed to be such a solemn looking duck that I didn't court his friendship, but he was so entertaining that after conversing with him until after midnight, I told him to call often. He was a slim man about 5 feet 11, and always appeared to be in a deep study. From the time of his first visit until his religious scheme was sprung I don't believe he missed a night without stopping with me for at least three hours. There wasn't a subject he couldn't discuss intelligently, and my opinion of him was high. His memory was something extraordinary. He could repeat several chapters of a book verbatim after it had been read rapidly."

The Smiths’ neighbors did not share this view of Joseph Sr or his son. They said the Smiths were ignorant, lazy, and stupid. 

He looked solemn and in deep thought because he suffered from depression. When was this published?

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

Follow up from Deseret News: "I was well acquainted with the elder Smith; he often came to see me, and we had many long talks together. I did not see much of the younger Smith. He seemed a very quiet, unassuming lad. For the Elder Smith I had the highest regard; he seemed well informed on every imaginable topic, and there was no subject upon which he could not talk intelligently."

Lots of folks who said they knew the Smiths said quite the opposite about him. 

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

These two sources with opposing biases both confirm William Hyde's assessment that his friend Joseph Smith Sr. was well-informed and he could speak intelligently on every imaginable subject, for hours at a time. This would be the environment Joseph Smith Jr. grew up in.

Would be if….

Please provide citations for these Hyde comments  

 

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

I don't have evidence that Joseph Jr. was reading books and taking copious notes in the Manchester Library. But we know Joseph Smith Jr. did read books. There are accounts of him reading Arabian Nights and books on William Kidd.

Those are among the most scholarly books a young man could read. I preferred Mad Magazine and Howard’s Conan novellas when I was his age. They served me well in later scholarly endeavors. 

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

However, more telling is the Hyde account above claiming that Joseph Smith Sr. was able to "repeat several chapters of a book verbatim after it had been read rapidly." Of course there's no evidence Joseph jr. could do this, but if his father had the ability to recite books from memory then Joseph Jr. would have had access to the content of books, even if he wasn't much of a reader.

And there’s only Hydes recollections for evidence, and then major suppositions. Not at all persuasive. 

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

Well, Adams Dictionary had four editions, and was in the Manchester Library. That gives us some idea of how widely distributed it was in the Manchester area. I can't say if people were actually reading and discussing that particular book, but a reviewer of Adams' Dictionary at the time said that Adams was "in such full possession of public regard, from the benefit conferred by her writings, and the merits of her several publications are so generally known, that we do not deem it necessary to enter into an elaborate investigation of the manner in which she has executed this new edition of a very useful book" More recently, Michael Altman said "Adams's books were useful resources for the New England reading public to investigate the variety of religious beliefs throughout history." (source) 

Having four volumes does not prove anyone read or discussed them, nor is it evidence that the Smiths had any contact with them. Even if they did, that would not have facilitated Joseph writing a complex 500 page book. 

On 11/2/2024 at 10:31 PM, Zosimus said:

Given Joseph Smith Sr.'s interest in religion, his ability to speak intelligently across a number of topics for hours day after day with friends, and his ability to recite pages of books from memory, I'd think it plausible that anything that was available in the Manchester Library would have been known to Joseph Smith Sr.. I also think it plausible that Joseph Smith Sr. discussed such things with his son, perhaps even reciting entire chapters of such books

Those are certainly not givens. So many, many, many variables, ifs, suppositions, and guesses.

How do we know that the Smiths frequented the library? When did the Smiths have time for all this academic activity? Contrary to the false testimonies of their neighbors, they were industriously involved in seriously hard labor.

My CFR is still out there. Please honor it. 

Edited November 5, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[webbles]

22 hours ago, Zosimus said:

The irony is that you know your cousin well enough to track his career from West Point to NASA. You know what he is capable of. Stephan Mack Jr, a cousin of Joseph and Hyrum with a very similar background, would have known Joseph and his capabilities. Stephen Mack Jr. probably read the Book of Mormon in the 1830s. As far as I know, Stephen Mack Jr. never joined the church. That makes me think he probably didn't believe that it was an impossible feat for Joseph. He probably understood it as something that Joseph was fully capable of producing by natural means.

I stand corrected if Stephen Mack Jr. did join the church and had a testimony that the Book of Mormon was a translation of a record written on gold plates. But I haven't been able to find evidence of that.

Why do you think that Stephen Mack Jr. read in the 1830s?  His father moved to Michigan around 1800 and then brought his family by 1822.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Mack) Stephen Jr went on to Illinois and was in Chicago by 1830 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Mack_Jr.).  He founded Macktown (named after him - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macktown_Historic_District) in the 1830s in the northern part of Illinois.

His sister, Almira, joined the church in 1830 when she was visiting her Aunt Lucy.  She, along with Hyrum and Lucy, went back to her family in 1832 and her mother, Temperance, was converted along with another sister.  Stephen Jr doesn't appear to be around at that time.  There's also a letter from Almira in Liberty, MO to her sister back in Michigan and she asks if her sister has heard any word of Stephen Jr.  It seems more likely that Stephen Jr had no opportunity to hear about it.  He was never near his family when they heard it.

Also, if he did hear of it, he could just as easily thought that Joseph couldn't produce it but instead was being a fraud and got it from someone else.  That was an extremely common idea of the time.  I don't think Stephen Jr's non-acceptance of the Book of Mormon is useful in determining if Joseph could or could not produce it.

[Calm]

On 11/2/2024 at 8:31 PM, Zosimus said:

Stephan Mack Jr, a cousin of Joseph and Hyrum with a very similar background, would have known Joseph and his capabilities.

Why?  While my father and his brother were very close, I knew my cousins very little as we rarely met after I was about 7 years old and my dad never talked about his family (he wasn’t into chit chat).  And it was a lot easier to communicate in my youth than in Joseph’s. Our grandmother was the one who told us the most and we learned after she died she wasn’t that accurate in her descriptions as she used each family to guilt trip the other (for our own good of course…but probably the biggest reason there is no contact between the families though as we grew up disliking each other after years of being told “why aren’t you more like your cousins?”).

Edited November 4, 2024 by Calm

[Zosimus]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Why?  While my father and his brother were very close, I knew my cousins very little as we rarely met after I was about 7 years old and my dad never talked about his family (he wasn’t into chit chat).  And it was a lot easier to communicate in my youth than in Joseph’s. 

Did you live in the same town? 

afaict Stephen was living in Hanover alongside his Aunt Lucy's family and his cousins for three or four years. I suppose its possible that Stephen didn't visit often enough to know Joseph and Hyrum very well, but he'd have to try real hard to avoid Hyrum at school.

[Zosimus]

5 hours ago, webbles said:

Why do you think that Stephen Mack Jr. read in the 1830s?  His father moved to Michigan around 1800 and then brought his family by 1822.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Mack) Stephen Jr went on to Illinois and was in Chicago by 1830 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Mack_Jr.).  He founded Macktown (named after him - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macktown_Historic_District) in the 1830s in the northern part of Illinois.

Well, I don't have proof that he read the Book of Mormon. But honestly, are you confident that he didn't? Stephen Mack married a Native American woman in 1829. At that same time, his cousin was telling the family that he was translating a native american history. A few years later, all of America knows about this golden native American Bible. Its in the newspapers in Chicago where he lived at the time. Stephen's mother and sisters convert. Stephen writes letters back and forth to his Mormon sisters.

And you're confident that Stephen Mack Jr. never read the Book of Mormon?

Quote

There's also a letter from Almira in Liberty, MO to her sister back in Michigan and she asks if her sister has heard any word of Stephen Jr.  It seems more likely that Stephen Jr had no opportunity to hear about it.  He was never near his family when they heard it.

Stephen was in contact. His personal letters to his family from 1818 to 1849 are in the Macktown Library in Rockton, Illinois. I suppose those could clear things up.

Quote

Also, if he did hear of it, he could just as easily thought that Joseph couldn't produce it but instead was being a fraud and got it from someone else.  That was an extremely common idea of the time.  I don't think Stephen Jr's non-acceptance of the Book of Mormon is useful in determining if Joseph could or could not produce it.

Well that's an entirely different thing, and there seems to be support for that being the view of close relatives on the Asael Smith side. Uncle Jesse sure had a lot of things to say about about what he believed Joseph and Hyrum were capable of.

[Zosimus]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, but it says nothing about their abilities, accomplishments, expertise, or credentials as teachers. AFAIK, such details are not available. Valuing an education does not mean much in that context. School teaching then is nothing like it is now, so we should not project modern notions on them. Teachers were chosen more for their moral character than their intellectual prowess. Most teachers were young men who soon abandoned their situation for other more lucrative opportunities. In any case, the evidence shows that Joseph’s education was rudimentary.

What then is your take on this? Is your position that Joseph Smith Jr. was so ignorant and uneducated that there's no possible way he could have produced the Book of Mormon, Book of Moses, Book of Abraham and revelations in the D&C by himself? Therefore his claims of divine intervention are true. I'm always open to that conclusion, I've held it myself for many decades. I am presently undecided.

IMO the Book of Mormon is too sophisticated to accept either of the extreme conclusions being discussed here. There's no doubt in my mind that Joseph restored ancient and uncommon truths. A lazy sheep thief would not be able to do what he did. A stupid kid would not be able to do what he did. But I am also not yet convinced that he was so ignorant that he couldn't have done it.  So I push back on the claims that he was ignorant, lazy and stupid

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Probably? How can we know that?

If you happen to still live in Rockford, head over to the Macktown Library and dig out those letters between Stephen and his family.

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The Smiths’ neighbors did not share this view of Joseph Sr or his son. They said the Smiths were ignorant, lazy, and stupid. 

He looked solemn and in deep thought because he suffered from depression. When was this published?

But not all neighbors shared that view. Some even joined the Church. Hyde’s article was published in the Chicago Times in 1888, certainly a late date. But like the Fayette Lapham interview with Sr. that wasn't published until 1870, some of these recollections seem to come from notes or journals written in 1828/1829. Hyde's account published in the Chicago Times was based on a history he had written earlier called The Birth of Mormonism.

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Lots of folks who said they knew the Smiths said quite the opposite about him. 

Hyde explains why in his interview that was intended to correct errors inserted by the Chicago Times. Hyde was unhappy about this and requested the Times publish a correction, which they didn't do. So the Deseret News did a follow up with Hyde to correct the errors. The Deseret News interview provides an answer to the contradiction you point out here:

Deseret News: "You said a little while ago that no one thought otherwise than well of the Smiths until after the discovery of the plates. How did this ill-feeling originate?"

William Hyde: "The failure of the treasure-seeking expedition and the consequent disappointment of many raised a temporary excitement, but there was nothing very serious said or done, until the religious excitement began -- after the translation of the plates and the organization of the 'Church of Jesus Christ' -- when the Smiths and their followers, of which there was a great number then, moved away to Ohio. Then families broke up, and the popular feeling against the Smiths became very bitter, their moral character was never attacked even then; they were considered religious fanatics."

From Hyde's perspective, the negative view of the Smiths came only after the failure of the treasure quests and the organization of the Church. Hyde is open about his own contradictory feelings about both Smith Sr and Martin Harris. He respected both as honest friends, but he felt that when it came to religion they were "slightly demented". I can imagine many of the people of Palmyra experiencing the same conflicted opinions.

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please provide citations for these Hyde comments  

Both interviews are here: https://zosimus.notion.site/William-Hyde-on-Joseph-Smith-Sr-52bee002902d4813979cb627eb070453?pvs=73

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Those are among the most scholarly books a young man could read. I preferred Mad Magazine and Howard’s Conan novellas when I was his age. They served me well in later scholarly endeavors. 

Have you ever read Arabian Nights? It's not a kid's book. It's a collection of often bloody and scandalous stories from Egypt, Syria, India, and Persia of a king from "the peninsulas of India and Indochina” (source) who kills off his virgin wives one by one before they get the chance to betray him. The first to mention it was Masudi, in his 10th century Meadows of Gold, discussed here recently. Here are a few paragraphs from the most common translation that would have been available to Joseph Smith before he turned 18.

Joseph could have learned about the obscure Biblical references to fallen angels and giants:

"The ancient Persians affirmed, and by most oriental nations it is credited, that these genii inhabited the world before the creation of Adam, but falling at length into general corruption, they were driven into the mountainous region of Caucasus, where they were finally reduced by Tahmuras, one of the ancient kings of Persia. These beings are of various denominations. Some are termed Genii, others Peries, some Deo, Dio, or Giants, others Ghole, Tucween, &c. &c. and have various offices and qualities assigned them in the fabulous legends and heroic poems and romances of the East, of which, as well as of the 1001 Nights, they form the most considerable part of the machinery."

Joseph could have learned about antediluvian ministering angels that believe in the dispensation of Moses and fly from one end of the earth to another:

"The Mahummedan tradition respecting genii corresponds with that of the Jews concerning a sort of dæmons named Shiddeem, whom some of the rabbins fancy to have been begotten by two angels, named Aza and Azael, on Naamah, daughter of Lamech, before the flood; and they say that these spirits, like the ministration angels, have wings, fly from one end of the world to the other, and have a knowledge of futurity, but are not immortal. They affirm, also, that some of them believe in the dispensation of Moses, and that others are infidels and reprobate."

Joseph could have learned about lost antediluvian scriptures written by Adam, Seth, and Enoch and also a post-flood set to Abraham:

"The Moosulmauns are taught in the Koraun that God has made revelations of his will to various prophets in writing, all of which it is requisite to believe. The whole of the sacred books are said to be one hundred and four, of which ten were given to Adam, fifty to Seth, thirty to Idrees or Enoch, ten to Abraham, and the other four, being the Pentateuch, the Psalms, the Gospel, and the Koraun, were delivered to Moses, David, Jesus Christ, and Mahummud, whose revelation being the seal of prophecy and mission, no other dispensation will be made. All the divine books, except the four last, the Moosulmauns believe to be entirely lost."

Joseph could have learned about the teaching of Jews on an impermanent "hell" and the release that comes through the intercession of prophets:

"The Mahummedans believe in a general resurrection and a future judgment, at which man will be doomed to happiness or misery according to his faith and actions in this life; but that the punishment of the Moosulmauns will not be everlasting, as, after having expiated their sins by long sufferings, they will be released from hell and admitted into Paradise. According to a tradition said to have been delivered from Mahummud, the period of torment will not be less than nine hundred years in any case, nor extend beyond seven thousand. The magicians and the Jews, from whom Mahummud probably borrowed the doctrine, believed, that after a long purgatory sinners would be released from torment at the intercession of their law-givers and prophets."

All that is in the 88-page preface to the Scott translation of Arabian Nights (1810). We certainly can't dismiss Arabian Nights as childish entertainment. 

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

My CFR is still out there. Please honor it. 

Your CFR is related to something I never said: "Do you have evidence that he spent time reading books and taking copious notes in the Manchester Library?"

While I had said: "there's very little to support the argument that Joseph didn't have access to the books he'd need to do what he was able to do."

Maybe you could list a few ideas that you believe are found in the Book of Mormon that would not have been available in a published text before 1830. Then we might determine how accessible or inaccessible those ideas were.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Zosimus

[webbles]

7 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Well, I don't have proof that he read the Book of Mormon. But honestly, are you confident that he didn't? Stephen Mack married a Native American woman in 1829. At that same time, his cousin was telling the family that he was translating a native american history. A few years later, all of America knows about this golden native American Bible. Its in the newspapers in Chicago where he lived at the time. Stephen's mother and sisters convert. Stephen writes letters back and forth to his Mormon sisters.

And you're confident that Stephen Mack Jr. never read the Book of Mormon?

Stephen was in contact. His personal letters to his family from 1818 to 1849 are in the Macktown Library in Rockton, Illinois. I suppose those could clear things up.

I'm not confident he read or didn't read.  I was wondering if you had evidence.  His letters might be interesting to see what they say.  But till then, I don't see him as a good point of evidence to whether Joseph could or could not have written the Book of Mormon.

7 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Well that's an entirely different thing, and there seems to be support for that being the view of close relatives on the Asael Smith side. Uncle Jesse sure had a lot of things to say about about what he believed Joseph and Hyrum were capable of.

I haven't read anything from Jesse besides that he didn't care for the Church.  Do you have links to things that he said or wrote that talks about what Joseph was capable of?  I'm not sure why Hyrum matters since Hyrum didn't write the Book of Mormon, unless you think he did it and had Joseph pass it off as his own work?

[Zosimus]

Quote

I'm not sure why Hyrum matters since Hyrum didn't write the Book of Mormon, unless you think he did it and had Joseph pass it off as his own work?

Jesse's letter was addressed to Hyrum. He seems to think Joseph Sr., Hyrum and Joseph Jr. were all involved in the production of the Book of Mormon. Letter is below.

That said, I'm aware that family members joined the Church and others didn't. 

55 minutes ago, webbles said:

I haven't read anything from Jesse besides that he didn't care for the Church. Do you have links to things that he said or wrote that talks about what Joseph was capable of? 

Jesse Smith to Hyrum Smith
Stockholm June 17th 1829

Mr Hiram [Hyrum] Smith

Once as I thot my promising Nephew, You wrote to my Father long ago, that after struggling thro various scenes of adversity, you and your family, you had at last been taught the very salutary lesson that the God that made the heavens and the earth would at once give success to your endeavours, this if true, is very well, exactly as it should be— but— alas what is man when left to his own way, he makes his own gods, if a golden calf, he falls down and worship’s before it, and says this is my god which brought me out of the land of Vermont— if it be a gold book discovered by the necromancy of infidelity, & dug from the mines of atheism, he writes that the Angel of the Lord has revealed to him the hidden treasures of wisdom & knowledge, even divine revelation, which has lain in the bowels of the earth for thousands of years is at last made known to him, he says he has eyes to see things that are not, and then has the audacity to say they are; And this Angel of the Lord (Devil it should be) has put me in possession of great wealth, gold and silver and precious stones so that I shall have the dominion in all the land of Palmyra.—

In a subsequent letter you write that you learn from your Grandfather’s letter that uncle Jesse [Smith] thinks you are carrying on a work of deception, in this he and you are right, Uncle Jesse did, and still does think the whole pretended discovery, not a very deep, but a very clear and foolish deception, a very great wickedness, unpardonable, unless you are shielded by your ignorance. Again you say, if you are deceived God is your deceiver, Blasphemous wretch— how dare you utter such a sentence, how dare you harbor such a thot— aye, you never did think so, but being hardened in iniquity, you made use of the holy name of Jehovah! for what, why to cover your nefarious designs & impose on the credulity of your Grandfather, one of the oldest men on the earth, Blackness of darkness! 

You say you have God for a witness— to prove the truth of what you write miserable creature, not to say perjured villain, how dare you thus trifle, in taking the name of God in vain, nay far worse than vain— that God with whom you thus trifle, is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity he cannot look on sin with any degree of approbation or complacency it is true he passeth by iniquity transgression and sin in his redeemed ones, he sees their shield, and for his sake receives them to favour, but to such as make lead books, and declare to the world that they are of the most fine gold, calling on the great & dreadful name of the most High to witness the truth of their assertions, He says “depart from me ye that work iniquity,” and again “these shall go away into everlasting punishment, they shall be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” these are the angels that tell where to find gold books.——

Your Grandfather is sorely disappointed he would not have listened a moment to your foolery, had he been forty years younger, he would have discovered barefaced falsehood in every line of your statement, nor would he as it is, but they say there must be one fool in the play, your good, pious & methodistical uncle Asahel [Smith] induced his father to give credit to your tale of nonsense, your abominable wickedness.— but now the poor old man just dropping into the grave is in tears day and night as David, mourning as did David over Absolam, who fell in rebellion against God & man, my poor old father is in deep mourning, not for his younger son, he sleeps in the dust, his ashes are not disturbed by your horrible deeds, he was taken from this evil, he mourns for <Joe &> his numerous family, not because wild beasts have torn him in pieces, but because he has destroyed himself & associated so much with thieves and robbers murderers etc etc

Your father would not be implicated in this place, but for the message he sent by the hands of a fool to my brother Saml [Smith] this fellow says that you and your father are in this business very deep the fellow also believes all to be a fact, this to be sure, for no one unless predisposed to believe a lie would have heard a syllable from either of you on the subject, he says your father has a wand or rod like Jannes & Jambres who withstood Moses in Egypt— that he can tell the distance from India to Ethiopia or another fool story, many other things alike ridiculous.

You state your Father cannot write by reason of a nervous affection this is a poor excuse, worse than none, he can dictate to others and they can write, If he knows not what to write, he can get your Brother’s spectacles he would then be as able to dictate a letter, as Joe is to decypher hieroglyphics, if more should be wanting he can employ the same scoundrel of a scribe, and then not only the matter but manner and style would be correct.

My compliments to your Father and Mother, tell them I wish them to review through years <that are> past, and say if they have done well in not writing to me these many years, tell them the time has been when they were glad to see me, but I am suspicious that the length of time since we last parted, has in some measure obliterated me from their memory, so that they would not now be pleased to receive a visit from me, If they will write me that I may know their affairs and how they do, I will give them a history of the family concern &c

I write this at the request of my Father not for your sake you have not written to me, the story is that the gold book proved to be lead, that the Authority have taken it & Joe is under bonds to appear before his betters, so let it be.

Jesse Smith

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Jesse's letter was addressed to Hyrum. He seems to think Joseph Sr., Hyrum and Joseph Jr. were all involved in the production of the Book of Mormon. Letter is below.

That said, I'm aware that family members joined the Church and others didn't. 

Thanks.  The letter can also be seen at https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letterbook-2/64

Jesse definitely feels like the whole thing is made up (which is a really common thought).  But this letter is before the Book of Mormon was published so I don't think it is useful to determine if Jesse thought Joseph could write it.  He definitely thinks that Joseph is making it up, but who knows what he is expecting Joseph to write.  Maybe he was thinking it would be a short novel?  Did he ever say anything after it was published about what whether or not Joseph wrote it?

I also find it interesting that he says "he can get your Brother’s spectacles he would then be as able to dictate a letter, as Joe is to decypher hieroglyphics, if more should be wanting he can employ the same scoundrel of a scribe, and then not only the matter but manner and style would be correct."  That kind of looks like he thinks the scribe is the one putting in the "manner and style"; kind of hinting that he doesn't think Joseph would have good style in his writing.  It could also be read that he is just talking about the manner and style of dictation.  Who knows?

[Kevin Christensen]

For the Manchester Library see "Joseph Smith and the Manchester (New York) Library" in Paul, Robert (1982) "Joseph Smith and the Manchester (New York) Library," BYU Studies Quarterly: Vol. 22 : Iss. 3 , Article 6. 

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2129&context=byusq

This concludes:

Quote

given his unlettered background however it is likely that during the 1820s he simply was not a part of the literary culture that portion of the population for which books provided a substantial part of its intellectual experiences. If Joseph in fact did not avail himself of published books at this early date however there still remains a wide range of literary sources to which he may have had access such as newspapers lectures and tracts both religious and political and almanacs such sources would certainly be more in keeping with his informal educational background and that of his frontier neighbors the existence of these other sources may in fact account more directly for joseph's non probable noninvolvement involvement with the Manchester library and perhaps most other libraries and bookstores of his region.

It happens that the library was five miles away, and the Smiths were not members.   And Harmony, where most the Book of Mormon translation occurred, had neither library nor bookstore. 

Rather than speculating that Joseph could have had access to this or that text or library, I consider whether his more educated peers, such as Alexander Campbell Jr. or Sidney Rigdon, or Orson Pratt, or Grandin, or Emma could have written the Book of Mormon with all potentially available resources?  I find myself unimpressed by attempts to explain away the Book of Mormon by people who never seem to bother seriously addressing the full problem that the Book of Mormon represents for even the best educated person anywhere on earth in 1829-1830.  

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited December 16, 2024 by Kevin Christensen
typo, grammar

[Nevo]

13 hours ago, Zosimus said:

afaict Stephen was living in Hanover alongside his Aunt Lucy's family and his cousins for three or four years. I suppose its possible that Stephen didn't visit often enough to know Joseph and Hyrum very well, but he'd have to try real hard to avoid Hyrum at school.

I agree that there was some overlap, but 3–4 years is way too long. Dan Vogel and other researchers have the Smiths arriving in Lebanon, NH, after May 1812 and leaving in the summer or fall of 1814.

Stephen Mack's name appears on Moor's School records for the 1813/14 school year (when Hyrum wasn't attending) but doesn't appear again after that. His Wikipedia entry claims he attended from 1813 to 1816 but I don't know what that is based on. I haven't seen any evidence that he was a student after August 1814. His name doesn't appear in the annual examination reports for 1815 and 1816.

In 1813/14, Stephen was listed as studying arithmetic, English grammar, and geography, and was examined in those subjects in August 1814.

There's a chance that Stephen and Hyrum were classmates during the 1812/13 school year (since students usually studied reading before moving on to study arithmetic), but there's no way to be sure since school records are missing for that year. Lucy tells us that Hyrum left part way through the year, probably in early 1813, so if Stephen was a student that year, they may have been classmates for 5 or 6 months.

On 11/2/2024 at 8:31 PM, Zosimus said:

There are accounts of him reading Arabian Nights and books on William Kidd.

But are any of these accounts credible? The Captain Kidd claim seems to have originated with Pomeroy Tucker. Was he reporting personal observation, town gossip, or just making things up?

Tucker wrote: "Joseph, moreover, as he grew in years, had learned to read comprehensively, in which qualification he was far in advance of his elder brother, and even of his father; and his talent was assiduously devoted, as he quitted or modified his idle habits, to the perusal of works of fiction and records of criminality, such for instance as would be classed with 'dime novels' of the present day. The stories of Stephen Burroughs* and Captain Kidd, and the like, presented the highest charms for his expanding mental perceptions" (EMD, 3:93–94).

It's possible that Tucker (or his informant) is conveying accurate information—perhaps Joseph had such books in his hands when he and his brothers "were frequently seen lounging about the stores and the shops in the village, distinguished only for their vagabondish appearance and loaferly habits" (EMD, 3:68)—but I think it's more likely that Tucker was indulging in artistic license here. Tucker's other descriptions of Joseph show that he didn't know him well. The boy he remembered was quiet and unprepossessing: "a dull-eyed, flaxen-haired, ragged boy . . . of taciturn habits—seldom speaking unless first spoken to while out among folks" (EMD, 3:69). Only in light of Joseph's later notoriety did Tucker come to see him as "a thinking, calculating, mischief-brewing genius" possessed of a "wholly secretive mind."

The account of Joseph reading the Arabian Nights comes from an article published in 1923 that purports to represent statements made by Palmyra resident Philetus Spear (1811–1901) around 1873: "His father was a fortune-teller, and had a poor reputation among the townsmen. Joe was an ungainly looking lad, clothing poor, with associates of the lower class. He had for a library a copy of the 'Arabian Nights,' stories of Captain Kidd, and a few novels."

There's no reason to think that Philetus Spear had firsthand knowledge of the contents of Joseph's "library." More likely he is reporting half-remembered town gossip or what he'd read in Pomeroy Tucker's Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism (1867).

I have a strong suspicion that the "accounts of [Joseph Smith] reading Arabian Nights and books on William Kidd" are made up. None of Joseph's family or neighbors or close acquaintances remembered him being much of a reader at all, let alone being "assiduously devoted" to reading trashy novels and "records of criminality." We have good evidence that he read the Bible and perhaps the local newspaper and school texts, and that's about it. Whatever else he read is largely unknown.

* A bit of obscure trivia: Rev. John Smith's funeral sermon was preached by Stephen Burrough's dad, the Rev. Eden Burroughs.

Edited November 4, 2024 by Nevo

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Zosimus said:

<From Hyde's perspective, the negative view of the Smiths came only after the failure of the treasure quests and the organization of the Church. Hyde is open about his own contradictory feelings about both Smith Sr and Martin Harris. He respected both as honest friends, but he felt that when it came to religion they were "slightly demented".>

Did he think the plates were in their heads?

[Zosimus]

If you feel that I never bother to seriously address "the full problems that the Book of Mormon represents" then I invite you to read my comments above and elsewhere.

8 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I find myself unimpressed by attempts to explain away the Book of Mormon by people who never seem to bother seriously addressing the full problem that the Book of Mormon represents for even the best educated person anywhere on earth in 1829-1830.  

That's a fair challenge. Who then would you say was the best educated person in America in 1829-1830? Let's narrow it down to the people involved directly in the events. I'd propose Samuel Mitchill as the most knowledgable American connected to the events leading up to the publication of the Book of Mormon in 1830.

We already know that Harris told at least two people (Butler and Hyde) that Mitchill confirmed that the characters on the gold plates originated with an extinct nation in the east of North America, which he named. Harris later confirms in JS History that Mitchill sanctioned Anthon's comments identifying the characters as true. So we can safely assume that Mitchill, had he lived long enough, would have been curious enough to read the Book of Mormon.

As the first academic to acknowledge the authenticity of the charcaters on the gold plates, what problems would the translated and published Book of Mormon have represented for Samuel Mitchill? What elements of the Book of Mormon would have been novel, surprising, innovative or unique to America's best educated man in 1830?

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Your CFR is related to something I never said: "Do you have evidence that he spent time reading books and taking copious notes in the Manchester Library?"

While I had said: "there's very little to support the argument that Joseph didn't have access to the books he'd need to do what he was able to do."

Not so. Note the * and the bolded words. 
 

Quote

• argument that Joseph didn't have access to the books he'd need to do what he was able to do. For example, he could have picked up the basics of nearly everything Hannah Adams knew about religion from one book, her "Dictionary of All Religions and Religious Denominations", which was in the Manchester Library. In History of the Jews, she talks about the different arguments supporting the claims that the Jews scattered to places as far away as the Americas, and she has some interesting comments on them being "the natural branches of the Olive Tree" broken off by unbelief, to "be grafted in again".*

He may have had potential access to all kinds of books. Do you have evidence that he spent time reading books and taking copious notes in the Manchester Library? 

*Call for references please. 

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Zosimus]

10 hours ago, Nevo said:

But are any of these accounts credible? The Captain Kidd claim seems to have originated with Pomeroy Tucker. Was he reporting personal observation, town gossip, or just making things up?

The safe answer would be that enough people knew that Joseph Smith was actively digging for treasure that they assumed he was reading stories about Captain Kidd. It makes sense to me that someone who was trying to make a living as a treasure digger would read books about the pirate who buried the treasure. But even if he didn't read, my main point is that there would have been others reading Kidd stories and reciting them as they dug for Kidd's treasure. I find it very unlikely that treasure diggers in New York in the 1820s weren't sharing the stories about Captain Kidd published in various books circulating in the area. For example, Washington Irving's Kidd the Pirate:

"Such is the main outline of Kidd's history; but it has given birth to an innumerable progeny of traditions. The report of his having buried great treasures of gold and jewels before his arrest, set the brains of all the good people along the coast in a ferment. There were rumors on rumors of great sums of money found here and there, sometimes in one part of the country, sometimes in another; of coins with Moorish inscriptions, doubtless the spoils of his eastern prizes, but which the common people looked upon with superstitious awe, regarding the Moorish letters as diabolical or magical characters."

Something I hadn't realized until I read Irving's Kidd the Pirate. There was another notorious pirate captain who was jailed and executed alongside William Kidd who was also burying Moorish Malay booty around New York. He was the great-uncle of Palmyra resident, John Bradish, father of Luther Bradish, who just happened to be Irving’s literary agent:

"Peechy Prauw, who never could remain silent, observed that the gentleman certainly was in the right. Kidd never did bury money up the Hudson, nor indeed in any of those parts, though many affirmed such to be the fact. It was Bradish and others of the buccaneers who had buried money; some said in Turtle Bay, others on Long Island, others in the neighborhood of Hell-gate." - Wolfert Webber by Washington Irving

10 hours ago, Nevo said:

I have a strong suspicion that the "accounts of [Joseph Smith] reading Arabian Nights and books on William Kidd" are made up. None of Joseph's family or neighbors or close acquaintances remembered him being much of a reader at all, let alone being "assiduously devoted" to reading trashy novels and "records of criminality." We have good evidence that he read the Bible and perhaps the local newspaper and school texts, and that's about it. Whatever else he read is largely unknown.

They could be made up, but I don't think it was out of the blue. My guess is that William Kidd and Arabian Nights stories were common topics of discussion at that time. People that had read those books, talked about those books in certain circles, and those that participated in those conversations were assumed to be readers of those books. One example is William Purple's account of Joseph Smith Jr's treasure digging expeditions around Bainbridge:

"How difficult to believe it could have been enacted in the nineteenth century of the Christian era! It could have been done only by the hallucination of diseased minds, that drew all their philosophy from the Arabian nights and other kindred literature of that period!"

IMO Joseph was in those circles and just like someone could sit through a discussion at a book club and learn a lot about a book, Joseph could have drawn some of his philosophy from Arabian Nights, and other kindred literature of that period, without ever touching a book.

Edited November 5, 2024 by Zosimus

[Zosimus]

58 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not so. Note the *. 

Oops, missed the *

It’s from Hannah Adams, History of the Jews. The link should take you directly to the parts about the grafting of olive trees. In addition, Dan Vogel writes:

"Adams discusses the Indian Israelite theory of Manasseh ben Israel and James Adair (2:333-38) and mentions the black Jews of Cochin and their brass plates (2:197-99)."

Source: Dan Vogel, "Bibliography" Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon, Salt Lake City, Signature Books, 1986, pp. 105-144.

There's further discussion about the white and black Jews of Cochin and their brass plates here, and other threads on this forum

Edited November 5, 2024 by Zosimus

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Maybe you could list a few ideas that you believe are found in the Book of Mormon that would not have been available in a published text before 1830. Then we might determine how accessible or inaccessible those ideas were.

That’s an odd request. What constitutes such an idea? What would establish its  accessibility? Let’s try this out. 

Following massive destruction at the time of his death, the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to the survivors who were of a culture that had come to the New World from Jerusalem 600 years earlier to escape captivity, sailing in boats built by desert dwellers and directed by a compass-like object that was powered by faith in God; were led by prophets who personally knew the pre-mortal Lord Jesus Christ; were baptized in His name while at the same time observing the Law of Moses; anticipating His visit because of visions and prophecies over centuries; experiencing His intimate ministry to them during which He established His Church and taught them His gospel; who eventually suffered massive apostasy and genocidal wars at the hands of their brothers, but were promised to be restored in the Last Days when their story would miraculously be revealed to an poor untutored farm boy in New York by one of their last great prophets and his son.

 

[Bernard Gui]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s an odd request. What constitutes such an idea? What would establish its  accessibility? Let’s try this out. 

Following massive destruction at the time of his death, the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to the survivors who were of a culture that had come to the New World from Jerusalem 600 years earlier to escape captivity, sailing in boats built by desert dwellers and directed by a compass-like object that was powered by faith in God; were led by prophets who personally knew the pre-mortal Lord Jesus Christ; were baptized in His name while at the same time observing the Law of Moses; anticipating His visit because of visions and prophecies over centuries; experiencing His intimate ministry to them during which He established His Church and taught them His gospel; who eventually suffered massive apostasy and genocidal wars at the hands of their brothers, but were promised to be restored in the Last Days when their story would miraculously be revealed to an poor untutored farm boy in New York by one of their last great prophets and his son.

 

By the way, Palmyra is 300-400 miles away from Captain Kidd’s haunts, but I suppose the folks around Palmrya didn’t care about that detail.

[Zosimus]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

By the way, Palmyra is 300-400 miles away from Captain Kidd’s haunts, but I suppose the folks around Palmrya didn’t care about that detail.

Porter Rockwell told Elizabeth W. Kane in the early 1870s that "the phantom treasure of Captain Kidd were sought for far and near, and even in places like Cumorah."

Here's a case, among many, of a hunt for Kidd's treasure 300 miles away from Boston as late as the 1880s

"The general supposition is that the money was placed there by Captain Kidd, some time in the sixteenth century.  Being hard  pressed on the Chesapeake Bay, by other pirates, he entered the Susquehanna river and sailed to  Crooks Riffles, which at that time formed part of the island.  In order to save the money, he buried it, end  and was afterward killed in a battle with the pursuer."