A great-grandson of Noah named Jared

[Zosimus]

Had posted this in a comment in another thread, but thought it'd be an interesting discussion on its own. Masudi's Meadows of Gold includes a man named Jared (Yarej in Arabic) in Japheth's line. This Jared was said to be the grandfather of the first king in China. 

We aren't told where Masudi's Jared ends up, but in the Akhbar al Zaman, his father Abur/Amir builds ships modeled after Noah's ark to sail east to China. (source) Of course the Book of Ether also tells of the journey of a Jared and his family from the confusion of languages, across (according to Nibley) central Asia in boats across seas (and rivers?) to China and then in boats modeled after Noah's ark to the Americas.

Is Masudi's Jared related to Jared from the Book of Ether?

Edited October 15, 2024 by Zosimus

[CV75]

Is that a yes-or-no question?

[nuclearfuels]

Could be. I'm not a researcher or scholar like others on this board, so here's GenAI's take on it:
 

Probability of a connection: 40%

Here's my reasoning:

• Similar names: Both accounts feature a person named Jared (Yarej in Arabic), which could indicate a shared origin or influence.

• Noah's ark connection: Both stories mention ships or boats modeled after Noah's ark, which might suggest a common narrative thread.

• Eastward migration: Both accounts describe a journey eastward, with Masudi's Jared's father Abur/Amir sailing to China and the Book of Ether's Jared traveling to China and then the Americas.

However, there are also significant differences:

• Genealogical context: Masudi's Jared is part of Japheth's line, while the Book of Ether's Jared is a descendant of Shem.

• Geographical specifics: The routes and destinations differ between the two accounts.

• Historical and cultural context: The sources come from different traditions and time periods (Masudi's Meadows of Gold vs. the Book of Ether).

Given these points, while there are intriguing similarities, the probability of a direct connection between the two Jareds is moderate (40%). It's possible that the stories share a common ancient source or influence, but the differences suggest distinct narrative developments over time.

 

Here are the sources I used to evaluate the probability of a connection between Masudi's Jared and the Jared from the Book of Ether:

• Masudi's Meadows of Gold:

• Akhbar al-Zaman:

• Book of Ether:

• Historical and cultural context:

• Genealogical context:

1. • Al-Masudi, "Meadows of Gold and Mines of Precious Gems" (Translated by Paul Lunde and Caroline Stone, 2007)
   • Online archives of the book (e.g., Google Books, Internet Archive)
   • Ibn al-Athir, "Akhbar al-Zaman" (Translated by Carl Brockelmann, 1937)
   • Online archives of the book (e.g., Google Books, Internet Archive)
   • The Book of Ether (part of the Book of Mormon)
   • Official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ((link unavailable))
   • "The Oxford Handbook of Biblical Studies" (Edited by John W. Rogerson and Judith M. Lieu, 2006)
   • "The Cambridge History of the Middle East" (Edited by P. M. Holt, A. K. S. Lambton, and B. Lewis, 1970)
   • "The Bible Dictionary" (Edited by W. E. Vine, 1985)
   • "The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion" (Edited by R. J. Zwi Werblowsky and Geoffrey Wigoder, 1997)

[Dario_M]

Hmmmm. What has this to do with the LDS church? 

Edited October 15, 2024 by Dario_M

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Hmmmm. What has this to do with the LDS church? 

Zosimus has a different theory on where the Book of Mormon came from, so he is interested in possible similarities or connections in ancient writings and stories of various countries.  He posts his ideas here to share and get critiqued.

Edited October 15, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Zosimus has a different theory on where the Book of Mormon came from, so he is interested in possible similarities or connections in ancient writings and stories of various countries.  He posts his ideas here to share and get critiqued.

Aaah i see. That sounds interesting. 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Aaah i see. That sounds interesting. 

It is, but I get lost pretty quickly.   

[Zosimus]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Could be. I'm not a researcher or scholar like others on this board, so here's GenAI's take on it:

Probability of a connection: 40%

Here's my reasoning:

• Similar names: Both accounts feature a person named Jared (Yarej in Arabic), which could indicate a shared origin or influence.
• Noah's ark connection: Both stories mention ships or boats modeled after Noah's ark, which might suggest a common narrative thread.
• Eastward migration: Both accounts describe a journey eastward, with Masudi's Jared's father Abur/Amir sailing to China and the Book of Ether's Jared traveling to China and then the Americas.

These three points alone are significant, especially considering the three differences below aren't really differences:

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

However, there are also significant differences:

• Genealogical context: Masudi's Jared is part of Japheth's line, while the Book of Ether's Jared is a descendant of Shem.
• Geographical specifics: The routes and destinations differ between the two accounts.
• Historical and cultural context: The sources come from different traditions and time periods (Masudi's Meadows of Gold vs. the Book of Ether).

1. Genealogical context: afaik we don't know what line Jared in the Book of Ether comes from. Japheth is just as likely as Shem. Some have even speculated Ham, which I think is unlikely. Given the small population size in those early generations after the flood, my best guess is that it was a mixture of the Japeth, Shem and maybe even Ham. 

2. Geographical specifics: we also don't know the routes and destinations of the Jaredites. Nibley proposes they went up through Iraq/Iran and then across the steppe of Asia to the east coast of China. That's where Masudi and other Arabic historians say Amur (Yarej's father) went, following the Oxus and other rivers east to the Pacific. So the route and destination are similar. 

3. Historical and cultural context: Again, this is not a difference. I'd argue the sources come from the same traditions (Abrahamic and Judeo-Christian). The time periods of the texts are different, but only by 500 years. Masudi wrote Meadows of Gold in the 10th century. For those that consider the Book of Mormon to be a 19th century production, both texts were translated to English in the 19th century.

But we also need to consider Masudi's sources for his genealogy, especially the kings mentioned in the line under Yarej. I think there's a strong case that Masudi got his information from Nestorian, Arabic and Radhanite traders that lived among, and interacted with, the community of Jewish traders in Kaifeng. The stone inscriptions (the oldest dating to 1489) in front of the Kaifeng temple are full of interesting historical context dating back to Adam, whom they equate with Pangu.

Quote

Given these points, while there are intriguing similarities, the probability of a direct connection between the two Jareds is moderate (40%). It's possible that the stories share a common ancient source or influence, but the differences suggest distinct narrative developments over time.

So it's possible they share a common ancient source. But before we (or ChatGPT) could give any kind of estimation we'd need more info on the sources and historical context. Will share some comments on the Kaifeng stone inscriptions below

[Zosimus]

7 hours ago, CV75 said:

Is that a yes-or-no question?

nah, just an awkward attempt to open a discussion

[CV75]

31 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

nah, just an awkward attempt to open a discussion

I did a quick analysis of @nuclearfuels reply and did not share because it was too hasty. But it paralleled yours, with the exception of #3 (historical and cultural context) because it relies on the paradigm that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century invention. Still, that is not a deal-breaker because there are other ways the two histories and two "Jareds" could have been adopted into two "chains of custody" that produced both books through the respective processes each claims.

[Zosimus]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I did a quick analysis of @nuclearfuels reply and did not share because it was too hasty. But it paralleled yours, with the exception of #3 (historical and cultural context) because it relies on the paradigm that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century invention. Still, that is not a deal-breaker because there are other ways the two histories and two "Jareds" could have been adopted into two "chains of custody" that produced both books through the respective processes each claims.

Assuming there was 100 years from the ark to the flood, then Jared from the Book of Ether would be a grandson or (more likely) great-grandson of Noah. 

Is your take then that there are two unrelated lines from Noah that migrated from the tower across the steppe to east Asia? I see the similarities and differences as outlined below. Given my biases, would you say I have left anything out or included anything that shouldn't be included

Book of Ether:

• Noah
• [Ham/Shem/Japheth]
• [Unknown Grandson]
• Jared
  • Builds barges and migrates across inland seas and rivers to China
  • Builds barges modeled after Noah's Ark to migrate to promised land
• First kings in promised land

Meadows of Gold:

• Noah
• Japheth
• Amur
  • Portion of children migrate to India (Hindus)
  • Portion of children migrate to Tibet (Tibetans and Mongols)
• Yarej
  • Leads majority of Amur's children along the rivers to extremities of China
• First kings of China

Edited October 16, 2024 by Zosimus

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Assuming there was 100 years from the ark to the flood, then Jared from the Book of Ether would be a grandson or (more likely) great-grandson of Noah. 

Is your take then that there are two unrelated lines from Noah that migrated from the tower across the steppe to east Asia? I see the similarities and differences as outlined below. Given my biases, would you say I have left anything out or included anything that shouldn't be included

Book of Ether:

• Noah
• [Ham/Shem/Japheth]
• [Unknown Grandson]
• Jared
  • Builds barges and migrates across inland seas and rivers to China
  • Builds barges modeled after Noah's Ark to migrate to promised land
• First kings in promised land

Meadows of Gold:

• Noah
• Japheth
• Amur
  • Portion of children migrate to India (Hindus)
  • Portion of children migrate to Tibet (Tibetans and Mongols)
• Yarej
  • Leads majority of Amur's children along the rivers to extremities of China
• First kings of China

I'm thinking more in terms of two narratives for the same great-grandson. It is possible that both narratives are a true and faithful record in that the same great-grandson (a) had two sons who carried his name in the narrative as they assumed the lead of two separate journeys; (b) set apart two close relatives or sons, giving them the same title-name (Yarej/Jared) and who assumed the lead of two separate journeys. A lot worse has been done in the name of legitimizing the origins of a people. This allows both accounts to be "correct enough."

PS how did the other project turn out (geographical locale for the Book of Mormon)?

[Zosimus]

44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm thinking more in terms of two narratives for the same great-grandson. It is possible that both narratives are a true and faithful record in that the same great-grandson (a) had two sons who carried his name in the narrative as they assumed the lead of two separate journeys; (b) set apart two close relatives or sons, giving them the same title-name (Yarej/Jared) and who assumed the lead of two separate journeys. A lot worse has been done in the name of legitimizing the origins of a people. This allows both accounts to be "correct enough."

If there's any substance to the Masudi account, the story in the 10th century at least was that the grandsons split off and stayed behind along the way, to keep the commandment to multiply and replenish (fill) the earth. This works well with the commandment given to Jared to gather up his family, Mahonri Moriancumer's family, and a group of friends:

Ether 1:41 "Go to and gather together thy flocks, both male and female, of every kind; and also of the seed of the earth of every kind; and thy families; and also Jared thy brother and his family; and also thy friends and their families, and the friends of Jared and their families."

That seems like a big group starting out, but by the time they get to the promised land, Jared has only four sons and there are only 22 others. 

So my thinking is, the account in Ether is the story of the sons and grandsons of Amur (Gomer) as they fill their quarter of the earth. Masudi informs us that some of Amur's sons stay behind and settle India and Tibet, while Jared/Yarej continues to China. Notice Masudi doesn't say that Yarej was the first king, but rather his son/grandson. So maybe Jared continued on to the promised land with the four sons mentioned in Ether. 

[Zosimus]

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

PS how did the other project turn out (geographical locale for the Book of Mormon)?

I've changed up my approach. I'm now looking first at the geography of the Book of Moses. IMO the east sea mentioned in Moses is the same east sea described in Enoch and the Book of Giants. Mahujah in the Book of Moses playing the same role as Mahaway in the Book of Giants, in the same geography. The lay of the antedilluvian geography becomes more defined after the flood in Arabic and Syriac accounts of the Land of Shir and the Mountain of Victories (also known as Mount Shir in some accounts). My take is Mount Shir in the Land of Shir is the same as Mount Shim in the Valley of Shurr in Jaredite geography. Mount Shir, where the texts are stored and maintained plays a similar role to Mount Shim in the Book of Mormon where the records are kept

If you haven't read the Revelation of the Magi (set in the Land of Shir) yet, the similarities to the Book of Mormon are startling

“One Drop of Salvation from the House of Majesty”: An Analysis of the Revelation of the Magi and Restoration Scripture

My approach now is to set the Book of Mormon geography in the same location as the Land of Shir

Edited October 17, 2024 by Zosimus

[JarMan]

On 10/14/2024 at 6:46 PM, Zosimus said:

Had posted this in a comment in another thread, but thought it'd be an interesting discussion on its own. Masudi's Meadows of Gold includes a man named Jared (Yarej in Arabic) in Japheth's line. This Jared was said to be the grandfather of the first king in China. 

We aren't told where Masudi's Jared ends up, but in the Akhbar al Zaman, his father Abur/Amir builds ships modeled after Noah's ark to sail east to China. (source) Of course the Book of Ether also tells of the journey of a Jared and his family from the confusion of languages, across (according to Nibley) central Asia in boats across seas (and rivers?) to China and then in boats modeled after Noah's ark to the Americas.

Is Masudi's Jared related to Jared from the Book of Ether?

Do we have any idea when Masudi’s Jared is supposed to have lived?

[Zosimus]

41 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Do we have any idea when Masudi’s Jared is supposed to have lived?

He was a grandson of Japheth, so it would have been roughly the same time as Jared in the Book of Ether. Three or four generations after Noah around the time of the tower

[JarMan]

On 10/16/2024 at 7:39 PM, Zosimus said:

I've changed up my approach. I'm now looking first at the geography of the Book of Moses. IMO the east sea mentioned in Moses is the same east sea described in Enoch and the Book of Giants. Mahujah in the Book of Moses playing the same role as Mahaway in the Book of Giants, in the same geography. The lay of the antedilluvian geography becomes more defined after the flood in Arabic and Syriac accounts of the Land of Shir and the Mountain of Victories (also known as Mount Shir in some accounts). My take is Mount Shir in the Land of Shir is the same as Mount Shim in the Valley of Shurr in Jaredite geography. Mount Shir, where the texts are stored and maintained plays a similar role to Mount Shim in the Book of Mormon where the records are kept

If you haven't read the Revelation of the Magi (set in the Land of Shir) yet, the similarities to the Book of Mormon are startling

“One Drop of Salvation from the House of Majesty”: An Analysis of the Revelation of the Magi and Restoration Scripture

My approach now is to set the Book of Mormon geography in the same location as the Land of Shir

Do you have a location or proposed location for Shir?

[Zosimus]

59 minutes ago, JarMan said:

Do you have a location or proposed location for Shir?

Brent Landau wrote his dissertation on Revelation of the Magi. Its a fun read:

The Sages and the Star-Child: An Introduction to the Revelation of the Magi, An Ancient Christian Apocryphon

He goes into some detail about the location of Shir, but mostly draws from:

The Land “Seiris” (Sir) and the People of Serer in Jewish and Christian Traditions by G.J. Reinink
(Journal for the Study of Judaism in the Persian, Hellenistic, and Roman Period)

It's in German so I've ran it through ChatGPT for an informal translation. You can find that here.

tl;dr the toponym Seiris is first found in Josephus, as the location where the pillars holding antedilluvian inscriptions were located. Reinink equates this (and other mentions of Sir or Serer) with the Seres people in Asia. Landau follows this conclusion. The Land of Shir is the land of the Seres, of Serica, somewhere in east Asia. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

Edited October 18, 2024 by Zosimus

[Zosimus]

Here's something I came across while searching Joseph Smith Papers for any commentary on Noahite and Jaredite migrations after the flood.

Mount Ararat, and the Early Abode of Noah and his Descendants

"In the opinion of the most learned among the moderns, Mount Ararat, where the ark of Noah rested, after the deluge, was in Armenia, or Thibet, and between 90o and 100o E. long. and between 30o and 35o north lat. north of Hindostan and Persia, west of the river Indus and of central Asia, and east of Mesopotamia and of the Caspian Sea. This is a temperate clime, and favorable to health and long life, as well as to the pursuits of the shepherd and agriculturist. The Ararat, the Caucasus, and the Taurus are connected, and form almost one group or range, extending a great distance from what is usually called Asia Minor, to India.

The Indian and Hindoo traditions of the earliest times point to Noah and the Deluge; and they claim to be the descendants of that patriarch. Noah and his sons would not long remain on the mountain where the ark rested, on the subsiding of the waters. They advanced no doubt, to the south, to a milder climate and a more champaign country. In the fourth generation, or one hundred and fifty years from the deluge, they removed westward, to the plains of Shinar, where they began to construct a building which should reach to heaven. Dispersed from this place about one hundred and fifty or one hundred and sixty years after the deluge, they went forth, in different companies, east, west, north and south; but most to the south and to the east, as both the face of the country and the climate would invite. Noah lived two hundred years after this event, and probably journeyed east, where traditions relating to the flood, and the safety of a few from that catastrophe have much prevailed.— From Noah and his sons would be communicated to their posterity whatever was known by them of antedeluvian discoveries and inventions in the arts of life. These could not have been very small during seventeen hundred years, the duration of the old world, according to the common computation; but at this distance of time, and in the want of early records, no very accurate opinion can be formed as to how great, or what those inventions were. But we may safely conclude, that they were not very great; otherwise the early generations after the deluge would have been more civilized than there is now evidence or reason to believe."

This editorial is significant for a few reasons:

1. The view that Ararat was in Tibet was uncommon in 1842, making it possible to narrow down this statement to sources considered by the editors to be the "most learned of the moderns".
2. The latitude and longitude provided does not correspond to the area being discussed, this suggests a map with an alternative system was referenced. 
3. The coordinates on ptolemaic maps do correspond to the coordinates of the area discussed in the editorial, suggesting a ptolemaic map was referenced.
4. The comment that "Ararat, Caucasus and the Taurus are connected" and form almost "one range, extending to India" supports the argument that a ptolemiac map was referenced.
5. The view that early Indian and Hindoo traditions point to Noah and the Deluge and that Indians "claim to be the descendants" of Noah suggest that specific orientalist sources were referenced.
6. The path of Noah and his sons south from the Tajikistan/Afghanistan region into Persia and Hindustan, and then west into Shinar, suggests that specific sources were referenced.
7. The tower event and scattering after the confusion of languages was in the fourth generation, this would imply Jared was a great-grandson of Noah.
8. The majority of tribes/families went south and east, this would imply the area known in the early 1800s as Hindustan.
9. The view that Noah "probably" traveled east into India after the tower was uncommon in 1842.
10. Antedeluvian discoveries and inventions in the arts of life were carried by Noah and his sons east into Hindustan and possibly beyond was an uncommon view in 1842.

There were only a few people speculating about #1, #6, #9 and #10 before 1842. But all of this, including the ptolemaic coordinates and dating of the migrations, seems to come directly from Sir Walter Raleigh's "History of the World" (1614)

Edited October 19, 2024 by Zosimus

[Pyreaux]

Then there is Shem's descendants after the Tower of Babel, who became contemporary dynasties of Bnei Ever consisting solely of Joktan & Peleg in whose time "the earth was divided" (Gen 10:25). Joktan settlements extended all the way to Sephar, the eastern hill country. He is believed to be the progenitor of a number of the ancient peoples in the Arabian Peninsula. Last descendants were Jerah, and the Brother of Jerah, Ophir went to an uninhabited region suggests Arabia and not Asia. Some early Bible translations call Jerah "Jared". The two Hebrew words yeh'-red and yeh'-rakh are simular.

The mountainous country to the east (and the possible location of Babel) make Arabia the obvious route to the ocean. The "many waters" and reference to "beyond the sea in the wilderness" suggests Arabia and not Asia. "The great sea which divideth the lands" suggests the Indian ocean, not the Pacific ocean. The relatively small space devoted to the initial journey suggests it was not across Asia.

The evidence suggests Book of Mormon exoduses, by Nephi and the brother of Jarod, were via Arabia. The children of Joktan, who parallel the Jaredites in other ways, went to Arabia. In the earliest times, the Persian Gulf was the center of world shipping.

 

Edited October 19, 2024 by Pyreaux

[Zosimus]

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Then there is Shem's descendants after the Tower of Babel, who became contemporary dynasties of Bnei Ever consisting solely of Joktan & Peleg in whose time "the earth was divided" (Gen 10:25). Joktan settlements extended all the way to Sephar, the eastern hill country. He is believed to be the progenitor of a number of the ancient peoples in the Arabian Peninsula. Last descendants were Jerah, and the Brother of Jerah, Ophir went to an uninhabited region suggests Arabia and not Asia. Some early Bible translations call Jerah "Jared". The two Hebrew words yeh'-red and yeh'-rakh are simular.

In looking at the original Arabic for Yarej in Meadows of Gold it appears to be closer to be yeh'-rakh. Unusual since Jerah in Genesis was a Shemite this would mean in the traditions that Masudi was familiar with there was also a Jerah from the line of Japheth.

I'd disagree that it was the common understanding that Shem's line Jerah, Ophir and Havilah colonized the Arabian Peninsula. One example, I shared the editorial from T&S above. This editorial seems to be borrowing heavily from Sir Walter Raleigh's History of the World. The map below was included in that text. You can see the "passage of Nimrod" from the Ark (in Afghanistan) to Babylon. Going east you can see the "passage of Ophir and Havilah into India". I'd say it's most probable that Joseph Smith had this understanding, since the T&S editorial pretty much says the same, in terms that seem to be borrowed from Sir Walter Raleigh's text. It could be that the map below is the understanding Joseph Smith had when he translated the Book of Ether. If that is the case, the Jaredites (like Noah in the Times and Seasons editorial) went south and east, into India. They could have descended the Ganges as seen in Raleigh's map to the Sea in the Wilderness (Indian Ocean).

Edited October 20, 2024 by Zosimus

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

In looking at the original Arabic for Yarej in Meadows of Gold it appears to be closer to be yeh'-rakh

Are you going by spelling or by sound?

[Zosimus]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you going by spelling or by sound?

I'm no expert, so asked GPT. Maybe there's some Arabic readers on the board that could confirm if the following is correct, or not

[JarMan]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:17 PM, Zosimus said:

Brent Landau wrote his dissertation on Revelation of the Magi. Its a fun read:

The Sages and the Star-Child: An Introduction to the Revelation of the Magi, An Ancient Christian Apocryphon

He goes into some detail about the location of Shir, but mostly draws from:

The Land “Seiris” (Sir) and the People of Serer in Jewish and Christian Traditions by G.J. Reinink
(Journal for the Study of Judaism in the Persian, Hellenistic, and Roman Period)

It's in German so I've ran it through ChatGPT for an informal translation. You can find that here.

tl;dr the toponym Seiris is first found in Josephus, as the location where the pillars holding antedilluvian inscriptions were located. Reinink equates this (and other mentions of Sir or Serer) with the Seres people in Asia. Landau follows this conclusion. The Land of Shir is the land of the Seres, of Serica, somewhere in east Asia. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

So, maybe the Korean Peninsula?

[Dario_M]

On 10/15/2024 at 5:50 PM, CV75 said:

Is that a yes-or-no question?

I guesse so i'm afrait.