A great-grandson of Noah named Jared

[Zosimus]

5 hours ago, JarMan said:

So, maybe the Korean Peninsula?

That's probably not far off. Masudi, who is pretty close in time to the authors of the Revelation of the Magi, was one of the first old worlders to refer to Korea. He called it something like Slid which could be Silla, a name that persists until today in Seoul. The Japanese called Korea Shiragi long time ago, so that is a decent stab at the identity of the land of Shir. But its also quite likely that Shir is the name given to the entire east side on the known world, and more of a mythic land associated with paradise

This is what the world looked like to Masudi about 200 years after Revelation of the Magi. I had to flip it because their south was up. Korea (Syla) is highlighted in yellow

Some more on Sila. Masudi says the inhabitants of Sila were also descended from Amur, so should be one of the sons eg Jerah:

"As regards the eastern limits of the world al-Mas‘ūdī followed the opinions of the Arab writers of the 9th and 10th centuries who placed a group of islands named Sīlā to the east of China. These, he believed, to be the end of the world in this direction. The common belief at that time was that these islands were inhabited by white-complexioned people who lived at peace with the Chinese on the mainland. Sulaymān remarks that no Arab had ever advanced as far as Sīlā. Al-Mas‘ūdī, on the contrary, asserts that Arabs had penetrated into these islands, but almost all of them decided to stay there on account of the mildness of the climate and abundance of wealth. He further adds that the indigenous population of these islands originally came from China and that they belonged to the race of ‘Amur’. It is difficult not to identify these islands with Japan whose inhabitants maintained, for a long time, commercial relations with China." source

Edited October 21, 2024 by Zosimus

[JarMan]

21 hours ago, Zosimus said:

That's probably not far off. Masudi, who is pretty close in time to the authors of the Revelation of the Magi, was one of the first old worlders to refer to Korea. He called it something like Slid which could be Silla, a name that persists until today in Seoul. The Japanese called Korea Shiragi long time ago, so that is a decent stab at the identity of the land of Shir. But its also quite likely that Shir is the name given to the entire east side on the known world, and more of a mythic land associated with paradise

This is what the world looked like to Masudi about 200 years after Revelation of the Magi. I had to flip it because their south was up. Korea (Syla) is highlighted in yellow

Some more on Sila. Masudi says the inhabitants of Sila were also descended from Amur, so should be one of the sons eg Jerah:

"As regards the eastern limits of the world al-Mas‘ūdī followed the opinions of the Arab writers of the 9th and 10th centuries who placed a group of islands named Sīlā to the east of China. These, he believed, to be the end of the world in this direction. The common belief at that time was that these islands were inhabited by white-complexioned people who lived at peace with the Chinese on the mainland. Sulaymān remarks that no Arab had ever advanced as far as Sīlā. Al-Mas‘ūdī, on the contrary, asserts that Arabs had penetrated into these islands, but almost all of them decided to stay there on account of the mildness of the climate and abundance of wealth. He further adds that the indigenous population of these islands originally came from China and that they belonged to the race of ‘Amur’. It is difficult not to identify these islands with Japan whose inhabitants maintained, for a long time, commercial relations with China." source

I actually think the Malay geography model is the best fit of the proposed models I've seen. I'm not sure how Japan or even Korea can come close. Japan didn't have elephants, right? I don't know about silk. 

Nevertheless, you bring up some interesting material. Of course my question is whether the Magi source and Masudi was available to early modern scholars. My guess is that they were. There are several early modern European scholars who knew Syriac and Arabic.

Edited October 22, 2024 by JarMan

[Zosimus]

1 hour ago, JarMan said:

I actually think the Malay geography model is the best fit of the proposed models I've seen. I'm not sure how Japan or even Korea can come close. Japan didn't have elephants, right? I don't know about silk. 

Most Americans in 1830 barely knew the difference between India, Siam, China, Japan and Korea. It was all the exotic orient in their minds and most probably assumed that silk and elephants were found everywhere in the orient. But was it unusual for Americans in 1830 to believe that elephants and silk were common in the Americas? Elephants maybe, since mammoth bones were being found all over the place. But silk?

1 hour ago, JarMan said:

Nevertheless, you bring up some interesting material. Of course my question is whether the Magi source and Masudi was available to early modern scholars. My guess is that they were. There are several early modern European scholars who knew Syriac and Arabic.

Revelation of the Magi, probably not available to Joseph Smith. It wasn't even known or discussed until recently. But there was an earlier source text that both the 8th century Revelation of the Magi and the 5th century Opus imperfectum in Matthaeum borrowed from. And the Opus imperfectum in Matthaeum was absolutely available in 1830.

One author that the Smiths were familiar with had written a detailed summary of it. I’m still verifying my sources and don’t want to open a public discussion about it until I’m confident about my claims. Will DM you for your thoughts