How close are Latter-day Saints to building the New Jerusalem in Missouri?

[telnetd]

It's mentioned in a seminary manual (Religion 324 325 - Doctrines and Covenants Student Manual).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32493_eng.pdf

D&C 48:4. What "City" Is Referred to in This Verse?

The city is the New Jerusalem, which is to be built through the sacrifice and 
consecration of the Saints. The Church had first learned about the city from 
Ether 13:3–8 and two previous revelations to Joseph Smith (see D&C 28:9; 42:6–9). 
The exact location of this city had not been revealed at this point in the history 
of the Church (see D&C 48:5). Three months after section 48 was given, however, the 
Lord indicated that Missouri was the place for the gathering (see D&C 52:2–3), but 
he did not reveal the specific location as being Jackson County until July 1831 
(see D&C 57:1–3).

D&C 48:5–6. Who Directs the Gathering of the Saints to the New Jerusalem?

The First Presidency of the Church holds the keys of the gathering to the New 
Jerusalem. President Harold B. Lee said: "The Lord has clearly placed the 
responsibility for directing the work of gathering in the hands of the leaders of 
the Church, to whom He will reveal His will where and when such gatherings would 
take place in the future. It would be well, before the frightening events 
concerning the fulfillment of all God’s promises and predictions are upon us, that 
the Saints in every land prepare themselves and look forward to the instruction that
shall come to them from the First Presidency of this church as to where they shall 
be gathered. They should not be disturbed in their feelings until such instruction 
is given to them as it is revealed by the Lord to the proper authority." (Ye Are the 
Light of the World, p. 167.)

Based on what the manual says, will only those from Utah be gathered there in the 
future or will it include saints from the remainder of the United States and other
parts of the world?

Doctrine and Covenants 57:3 mentions the city of Independence in Missouri as "the 
center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not 
far from the courthouse".

Does the laying of the foundation of the city (also mentioned in 48:6) refer to another
city in Jackson County or will the current city of Independence be destroyed so a new
one can be rebuilt?

Edited August 6, 2024 by telnetd

[blackstrap]

For a second there I thought I was experiencing ' deja vu ' . 

There will have to be some serious negotiations with current land holders, no?

[webbles]

I remember when the Kansas City Missouri temple was announced that there was a bunch of speculation.  President Monson had said "greater Kansas City area" which encompasses Independence.

There's also a rumor I heard that either the chapel that is located on the Independence temple site or the visitor center can quickly transform into a temple.

I suspect, though, that the building of the temple in Independence is about as close as the building of the temple in Jerusalem.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, blackstrap said:

For a second there I thought I was experiencing ' deja vu ' . 

There will have to be some serious negotiations with current land holders, no?

Given that the Church of Jesus Christ (Temple Lot) is pretty well set on not selling the property (as far as I'm aware, anyway), I'd say that negotiations would be very short and conclusive in the negative! But if things are sufficiently in turmoil during the Tribulation, that church might well cease to exist. There's only about 7,000 of them worldwide at this time. And they have only nine out of the twelve apostles they are supposed to have. They do have a nice website: The Church of Christ: Temple Lot

Considering the state the world will be in during the Tribulation before the Second Coming, things like ownership of the site may become quite clouded. For example, consider the ownership status of the Spirit Lake Lodge formerly occupied by the storied Harry Truman of Mount Saint Helens fame. His lodge, including his remains, now lie somewhere beneath 150 or so feet of volcanic ash and debris. Who now owns his land? Well, the National Park Service does now, but I don't think they had to pay Harry's family for the property. But maybe they did? 

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't think they had to pay Harry's family for the property.

According to this he leased the site from Burlington Railroad…

https://www.oregonlive.com/history/2020/05/harry-r-truman-still-believed-in-love-as-mount-st-helens-eruption-loomed-refused-to-leave-the-mountain-that-gave-him-everything.html

And according to this Burlington did a land swap with the government after the disaster.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,796820

Edited August 6, 2024 by Calm

[Mark Beesley]

We are about as close to establishing the New Jerusalem as we are to being a Zion people, i.e. not very close. Also, the New Jerusalem will be built primarily by Lehi’s seed, with the rest of us assisting. Expect a massive influx of Lehi’s seed from the south when this happens. (Perhaps the current “crisis” on our southern border is a prelude to this. 😉)

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

According to this he leased the site from Burlington Railroad…

https://www.oregonlive.com/history/2020/05/harry-r-truman-still-believed-in-love-as-mount-st-helens-eruption-loomed-refused-to-leave-the-mountain-that-gave-him-everything.html

And according to this Burlington did a land swap with the government after the disaster.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,796820

Thanks for that! Had curiosity about it, but not enough to look it up. You did my work for me!  

[CV75]

22 hours ago, telnetd said:

It's mentioned in a seminary manual (Religion 324 325 - Doctrines and Covenants Student Manual).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32493_eng.pdf

D&C 48:4. What "City" Is Referred to in This Verse?

The city is the New Jerusalem, which is to be built through the sacrifice and 
consecration of the Saints. The Church had first learned about the city from 
Ether 13:3–8 and two previous revelations to Joseph Smith (see D&C 28:9; 42:6–9). 
The exact location of this city had not been revealed at this point in the history 
of the Church (see D&C 48:5). Three months after section 48 was given, however, the 
Lord indicated that Missouri was the place for the gathering (see D&C 52:2–3), but 
he did not reveal the specific location as being Jackson County until July 1831 
(see D&C 57:1–3).

D&C 48:5–6. Who Directs the Gathering of the Saints to the New Jerusalem?

The First Presidency of the Church holds the keys of the gathering to the New 
Jerusalem. President Harold B. Lee said: "The Lord has clearly placed the 
responsibility for directing the work of gathering in the hands of the leaders of 
the Church, to whom He will reveal His will where and when such gatherings would 
take place in the future. It would be well, before the frightening events 
concerning the fulfillment of all God’s promises and predictions are upon us, that 
the Saints in every land prepare themselves and look forward to the instruction that
shall come to them from the First Presidency of this church as to where they shall 
be gathered. They should not be disturbed in their feelings until such instruction 
is given to them as it is revealed by the Lord to the proper authority." (Ye Are the 
Light of the World, p. 167.)

Based on what the manual says, will only those from Utah be gathered there in the 
future or will it include saints from the remainder of the United States and other
parts of the world?

Doctrine and Covenants 57:3 mentions the city of Independence in Missouri as "the 
center place; and a spot for the temple is lying westward, upon a lot which is not 
far from the courthouse".

Does the laying of the foundation of the city (also mentioned in 48:6) refer to another
city in Jackson County or will the current city of Independence be destroyed so a new
one can be rebuilt?

Where does the manual indicate only saints from Utah? It stands to reason they would come from anywhere. It is also important to understand that terms like Israel, Zion, Jerusalem and New Jerusalem, etc. also refer to covenantal concepts as well as geographic spots, and both kinds of events occur together.

I take Independence, MO to include the immediate surrounding areas (let’s say 100 miles to include far West/Spring Hill MO), and it doesn’t necessarily need to be destroyed for the New Jerusalem to be built. Some things will change, no doubt, in the process.

Take a look at this, an old article that has been updated I am sure: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1979/04/missouri-myths?lang=eng old article 

[Stargazer]

Never mind the New Jerusalem temple, apparently, the Church is helping rebuild some pagan temples in Japan after an earthquake.

One comment on the video (Ward Radio, which I sometimes cringe over) below...

Quote

@dbat480

Served my mission in Japan. We actually did a lot of service projects with Shinto and Buddhist folks. The LDS church and the Shinto, Buddhists and Senzo of Okinawa are really good friends. The Buddhists and Shintos are probably some of the greatest people to have ever lived. I'm grateful to be a part of a church that believes in protecting the religious beliefs of others and in helping them continue doing good. Very often when visiting a Shinto or Buddhist shrine I'd feel the Spirit. There are a lot of similarities between those religions and ours. They have a lot of truth.

 

Edited August 7, 2024 by Stargazer

[Analytics]

I think it is interesting that while about 95% of Kansas City is in Jackson County, the KC temple is in a part of the city that is in Clay County and is perhaps 4 miles away from the Jackson County border. It is also about 10 miles away from the prophesied site in downtown Independence.

If the KC area ever needed a second temple, they’d want to put it on the opposite side of the metro, probably in Overland Park Kansas. In terms of practical needs, it will never make sense to put one in Independence, so close to the existing KC temple.

Edited August 7, 2024 by Analytics

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Never mind the New Jerusalem temple, apparently, the Church is helping rebuild some pagan temples in Japan after an earthquake.

One comment on the video (Ward Radio, which I sometimes cringe over) below...

 

A comment on the comment: The light of Christ is a wondrous thing and as described in D&C 88 and Alma 30:44, abounds in nature. When we tap into it, we can feel a profound awe a spiritual sentiments. Most people don't know from where (rather, from Whom) this power, connection and feeling comes, and so attribute it to nature, the universe, ancestors, survival of the fittest, etc. Sometimes they attribute it to the things that convey the light of Christ to them and end up worshipping them and sometimes in an idolatrous sense when they should know better. Others sometimes develop powerful spiritual gifts (not the same as gifts of the Spirit). The thing about the light of Christ is that it shines within and through and about all things (there's no escaping it), so gets directed by things which have the agency to act, sometimes in ignorance and sometimes for good ("the way of the gods" -- Shinto) or evil (devil appearing as an angel of light). I think fundamentally all world religions and adherents are meant to bring out the best use of this power.

Because it eventually leads to the spiritual gift of discernment, given the opportunity (Alma 29:8), some people begin to discern and exercise faith in God and Christ. They get baptized in water and fire, and having the gift of the Holy Ghost, develop gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit of Promise seals them to the Source of this light, Who then brings them into His presence.

I think it perfectly congruent for the Church to promote the favorable use of the light of Christ in all its forms. This post focuses on religions, but the same applies to the sciences (I'm thinking BYU and CES, and humanitarian aid).

[Stargazer]

18 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I think it is interesting that while about 95% of Kansas City is in Jackson County, the KC temple is in a part of the city that is in Clay County and is perhaps 4 miles away from the Jackson County border. It is also about 10 miles away from the prophesied site in downtown Independence.

If the KC area ever needed a second temple, they’d want to put it on the opposite side of the metro, probably in Overland Park Kansas. In terms of practical needs, it will never make sense to put one in Independence, so close to the existing KC temple.

It kind of doesn't need to make sense. 

That's because that temple will be special, kind of like the Kirtland Temple is special, though differently special. The KT is historically significant, but it is not a "working temple." The NJT may be a "working temple," but I think its primary function will be as one of the two centers of divine government, during the Millennium, along with the temple in Old Jerusalem.

In Guide to the Scriptures, under the term "New Jerusalem," the text includes the following:

"The place where the Saints will gather and Christ will personally reign with them during the Millennium. Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent, and the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory (A of F 1:10). It also refers to a holy city that will come down out of heaven at the beginning of the Millennium."

Thus is seems that a holy city may come down out of heaven and replace Kansas City. Which when it happens will be quite interesting to watch! If that's what it means.

Edited August 7, 2024 by Stargazer

[CV75]

removed (wrong thread)

Edited August 9, 2024 by CV75

[telnetd]

On 8/7/2024 at 9:32 AM, CV75 said:

Where does the manual indicate only saints from Utah? It stands to reason they would come from anywhere. It is also important to understand that terms like Israel, Zion, Jerusalem and New Jerusalem, etc. also refer to covenantal concepts as well as geographic spots, and both kinds of events occur together.

It doesn't mention Utah. It was just part of the question I posed. 

How will the church persuade all the current residents of the area to evacuate in order to build
this city so a new influx of people could settle there?

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, telnetd said:

It doesn't mention Utah. It was just part of the question I posed. 

How will the church persuade all the current residents of the area to evacuate in order to build
this city so a new influx of people could settle there?

From scripture, it seems certain that there will be a LOT of devastation worldwide occurring in the Tribulation preceding the Lord's return. See the latter chapters of the Book of Revelation. Much of the Tribulation will be natural, but some will be manmade. See Chapter 36 of Doctrines of the Gospel, Student Manual. 

So there may not be a lot of people who need to evacuate the area.

 

[CV75]

15 minutes ago, telnetd said:

It doesn't mention Utah. It was just part of the question I posed. 

How will the church persuade all the current residents of the area to evacuate in order to build
this city so a new influx of people could settle there?

It is far from a given that all the current residents would have to evacuate the area to build this city so that a new influx of people could settle there.

Maybe they will simply be converted!  

More realistically, the population density of the area is quite modest, with quite a bit of room to grow if that happens to be the case. For example, Independence, MO is 19 times less dense than NYC.

[Dario_M]

The new Jerusalem? You mean a new temple. 🤔

[telnetd]

On 8/9/2024 at 1:25 PM, CV75 said:

More realistically, the population density of the area is quite modest, with quite a bit of room to grow if that happens to be the case. For example, Independence, MO is 19 times less dense than NYC.

It sounds like you don't believe a city will be built but rather the existing area
will just be filled in.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

It sounds like you don't believe a city will be built but rather the existing area
will just be filled in.

I believe New Jerusalem will be physically built in the existing area through a combination of new, renewed, improved, and replacement buildings, homes and infrastructure as indicated and guided by the Lord. My comment on today's relatively small urban population density has nothing to do with this belief, only with the potential for growth, which if the 100-mile radius is to be filled in, would be the case.

[carbon dioxide]

I propose we build the temple today offsite and then when the time is right, we can move it to the final resting place on trucks.   Just build it in sections that can be assembled easily like Legos.

Edited August 12, 2024 by carbon dioxide

[manol]

31 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I propose we build the temple today offsite and then when the time is right, we can move it to the final resting place on trucks.   Just build it in sections that can be assembled easily like Legos.

Forty-something years ago I took a trip to Israel with emigration in mind (which ended up not happening).  The "faith-promoting rumor" I encountered at the time was that the future Jerusalem temple had indeed already been built in sections, which were in storage, and which could be moved on-site and assembled very quickly (my recollection is that "three days" was mentioned).

I've been out of that loop for far too long to have heard any updated versions of the rumor. 

But, yeah, your idea makes enough sense that it might already have been done! 

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 8/9/2024 at 10:55 AM, telnetd said:

How will the church persuade all the current residents of the area to evacuate in order to build
this city so a new influx of people could settle there?

Heh.  I was a little boy growing up in SLC in the 1970's.  The little neighbor girl and I had decided we'd get married when we grew up.  

Then her dad decided it was time to up and move the whole family to Jackson county because "it was almost time", and that was that.  9 was a tender age to experience such heartbreak, even if the dad did partly justify the move by saying "we're going now so the rest of you will have a place to stay when it's time".  

🤷‍♂️

Edited August 12, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[randy]

On 8/6/2024 at 2:10 PM, webbles said:

I remember when the Kansas City Missouri temple was announced that there was a bunch of speculation.  President Monson had said "greater Kansas City area" which encompasses Independence.

There's also a rumor I heard that either the chapel that is located on the Independence temple site or the visitor center can quickly transform into a temple.

I suspect, though, that the building of the temple in Independence is about as close as the building of the temple in Jerusalem.

I was born and raised in Indep. Mo...and as a young man (18yrs) I was blessed to help build the Indep. Mo Stake Center.  Bowers Constr. Co was the General Contractor (if I remember correctly) I remember a group of us were having a discussion about the Stake Center/Indep. Temple etc.   I do recall that our Boss Man told us that to his knowledge, up to that time, the Indep. Mo Stake Center was the only one he was aware of that was specifically built with a full basement.  Read what you will into all that extra space being available.    As to the Indep. MO Visitors Center, Alvin R. Dyer in his book "Refiners Fire" made it pretty clear that the VC was contemplated to be part of the Independence Temple complex.  FYI....Alvin R. Dyer was an Apostle, but not a member of the Q of 12.  His calling was to act as a special liason to the First Presidency of all things Indep, Far West, Adam Ondi Ahman, Indep. Temple etc.