What is the light of Christ?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Edit: To be clear, I'm not really asking what the light of Christ does. I'm asking what it is.

As the church teaches, it is not the Holy Ghost.  In latter-day saint teachings it is described as an essence that is distinct and different from the third member of the Godhead.

(Honestly I had never even thought of that question before so thanks for asking it.  It has opened up some interesting thoughts in my head.)

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Edit: To be clear, I'm not really asking what the light of Christ does. I'm asking what it is.

Obviously a cricket. 

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Honestly I had never even thought of that question before so thanks for asking it.  It has opened up some interesting thoughts in my head.)

Really?  It has been near the top of my ‘questions to ask as soon as I find someone not too busy to talk in the next life’ list for a long time. 

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Really?  It has been near the top of my ‘questions to ask as soon as I find someone not too busy to talk in the next life’ list for a long time. 

Yep, really.  I think I just assumed it was the Holy Ghost since the scriptures generally refer to it as a spirit, but I never stopped to think about it long enough to even solidify that option in my head.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I see it all as ONE "thing" since the most important revelations I have ever received in my life, happened to me before I received the "Holy Ghost"- ie. joining the church at all!

I believe that what is PERCEIVED as what we call the "Holy Ghost" is the same force as the Light of Christ, but as we progress, it gets stronger.  It was difficult for me at first, but as I joined the church and etc, I found it was "easier" to feel this force.- or revelation.

It's easier now to "tap into" whatever this "is"- but now it has a different quality.

It's like the difference between black and white and color TV - when I was a kid.

We can watch movies just fine in black and white, but in color, we "get" more symbology and more nuance-a green leaf gives us more information about the seasons etc, that would not be present in a black and white view of the same leaf.

I think it's kinda like that.

The information is the same but the nuances and implications- the RELATIONSHIPS of what is "going on"- are much more nuanced through what is termed "The Holy Ghost".

It is said that one cannot step into the "Same" river twice (Heraclitus, Greek philosopher) due to the swirling of leaves, the presence of birds and all the details that make up the perceptions of the river from second to second, yet the difference between the river frozen and the river through the seasons are much more dramatically NOT the "SAME" river.

It's like that, I think.

The differences become more clear with the HG than with the LoC

Just an exploratory opinion:

The power of God comes from a united Three-Person source experienced by the same mortal person, who in turn unites with Them. Its expressions and functions differ according to the roles of the Three Persons and the recipient mind.

So, we experience the power of the Father through His Son who sets up our probation and through the Holy Ghost who ratifies our performance, and then we experience the Father’s power directly when we return as immortal (by the quickening power of Christ), and exalted (by the ratifying power of the Holy Ghost).

Why is a Third-Party Spirit Ratifier even needed? I think it has to do with transitioning from a spirit world into the resurrected world. Christ came to the earth in the flesh and finished His work of redemption. The Holy Ghost, a Spirit, finishes His perfecting work well into the spirit world up to the resurrection so that we can realize the redemption. This is the ratification.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yep, really.  I think I just assumed it was the Holy Ghost since the scriptures generally refer to it as a spirit, but I never stopped to think about it long enough to even solidify that option in my head.

It is funny how some things grab some people’s attention, but others it doesn’t register on. My guess is because I was into physics in my teens and studying what light was at times so the idea of light conveying knowledge, etc in some fashion that then communicates with our spirits and minds caught my attention (got a nice set of prisms for my tenth birthday ).

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is funny how some things grab some people’s attention, but others it doesn’t register on. My guess is because I was into physics in my teens and studying what light was at times so the idea of light conveying knowledge, etc in some fashion that then communicates with our spirits and minds caught my attention (got a nice set of prisms for my tenth birthday ).

I love prisms. Whenever I try to contemplate with the celestial kingdom looks like I think of being inside a prism with light shining through it.  I love that temples are filled with them.

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

And a most important thing to understand is that this divine intelligence is material, and that the Father and the Son possess this tangible, divine material substance of holy light, knowledge and power in infinite and eternal fullness. It is by the means of this mutually and equally shared divine material substance of intelligence that the Father is able to dwell in the Son and the Son is able to dwell in the Father. It’s the ultimate purpose of God that his sons and daughters might also be filled to infinite and eternal fullness with this divine material substance of holy light, knowledge and power, and this that the saints may dwell in the Father and the Son, and that the Father and the Son dwell in the saints. Like it or not, it is this intelligent material substance that unifies all things in God, and here’s the proof.

LECTURE 5 - Lectures of Faith
Lec 5:2m and these three constitute the Godhead and are one: the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness;

Lec 5:2n filling all in all -the Son being filled with the fullness of the Mind, glory, and power; or in other words the Spirit, glory, and power of the Father - possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom;

Lec 5:2o sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father - a Mediator for man - being filled with the fullness of the Mind of the Father, or in other words, the Spirit of the Father;

Lec 5:2p which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments;

Lec 5:2q and all those who keep his commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ;

Lec 5:2r possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all;

Lec 5:2s being filled with the fullness of his glory, and become one in him, even as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. (Lectures on Faith 5). 

Great post- great ideas, and right on the money in my view.  It IS a material phenomenon as are all phenomena are- what we see and hear and taste etc can be seen as the "causes" of what we see phenomenally, like, I think,- the analogy I often use = COLOR.  The cause of what we see phenomenally is "caused" by light- a source of what we call"energy" which is of course "matter refined".   But what we SEE is not light- but COLORS.  So similarly, what we see is a material "energy" caused by the divine mind and upholding its existence in our minds responding in what we call "things" as we see them.  

The problem is that language breaks down in trying to speak about it- but one can FEEL the difference,which happens not in what is entering the mind/intelligence within us- but what our individual  intelligences DO with it.

And that, I think is where "righteousness" comes it- it colors our perceptions of everything as we grow closer to God.   It is as if we are born wearing dark sunglasses that make it POSSIBLE to see- sort of- but as we "chose the right" they get lighter and lighter until- after we have passed- they disappear and we see things finally "as they are".

Not sure about how coherent this is- language muddles everything.  But as our intelligence grows more Godly, our perceptions and knowledge of the world changes with it as those sunglasses gradually become clearer and clearer. 

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Rain said:

Edit: To be clear, I'm not really asking what the light of Christ does. I'm asking what it is.

Getting back to this more direct question, other have mentioned D&C 88. I would summarize it as the most fundamental organizing agent of any particle, however that particle subsequently interacts with other particles to form other entities and their particular properties and interacting forces, and whether those entities are the kind that act (e.g., a person) or are acted upon (e.g. that person's hair).

[Rain]

37 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Getting back to this more direct question, other have mentioned D&C 88. I would summarize it as the most fundamental organizing agent of any particle, however that particle subsequently interacts with other particles to form other entities and their particular properties and interacting forces, and whether those entities are the kind that act (e.g., a person) or are acted upon (e.g. that person's hair).

So would you say the priesthood uses it to create? Or works with it? Or is it? Or works along side it? Doesn’t have anything to do with it?...

[JVW]

Here's a question for you... Is there any light that exists in the entire universe that is not the "light of Christ"? Is there any other source of light besides Christ?

Consider this as well. Our entire reality is the electromagnetic spectrum and it's a real shame that people who research Electromagnetic Radiation (EMR) are regarded as pseudo-scientists. The way we perceive everything, all of our senses, our planet, the internet, whatever you name, it's all electromagnetic. There are waves, and particles, and fields, and all are invisible and interacting with us. I recently learned that scientists have been debating for decades about whether or not the DNA stored in our cells is an antenna or not. I believe there have been experiments done that have shown DNA to receive radio frequencies (or other electromagnetic wavelengths). Also consider the few ways that we've learned recently on how light impacts us. There is red light therapy, there's a thing with green light that I don't remember what it was, there is blue light that keeps us awake. In tracker rings like Oura there are little LEDs in the ring that just shine against your finger to give back biometric data to the app. Needless to say, I don't think it's an understatement to suggest that we know less than .01% of everything we can know about light and how it impacts our being. We even generate light in our bodies. And light appears to have some sort of intelligence, a classic example being the double slit experiment in which light behaved differently depending on whether or not it was being observed.

Light is in all things, through all things, and all things need it. I suggest that the "light of Christ" is a synonym for "light" but it adds additional definitions to the term. One, it attributes light to the One who creates it. Two, it suggests that light impacts us on a moral level. Three, it suggests that light impacts our intelligence and ability to exercise agency in correct ways. Four, it suggests that we store light and can increase the amount we store. Christ said "if your eye is single then your whole body shall be full of light" and "if the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness". So light is a topic that the perfect One chose to spend brief moments of His ministry speaking about. It is important, and you asked a good question.

I don't think that light and the Holy Ghost are the same thing. The Holy Ghost is definitely a member of the Godhead, and light emanates from God, it is not one person of the Godhead. As far as the Holy Ghost is concerned that's an entirely different topic, I'm not even sure that the Holy Ghost is male. (It is implied, but not explicitly stated in Nephi, but other than that there is no reference to the gender of the Holy Ghost.) Part of me likes to think of the Holy Ghost as being related to the love of the Mother, because thinking of the Godhead as the Father, the Mother, and the Son has a nice familial ring to it. On the other hand, the Godhead being all male is very traditional and falls under my beliefs about the use of the priesthood during mortal probation.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

So would you say the priesthood uses it to create? Or works with it? Or is it? Or works along side it? Doesn’t have anything to do with it?...

I think it depends on who is using it. D&C 88 describes it as an attribute of Christ which He sues to govern all things that are acted upon, and to govern all things that act and who are willing to be governed (those who are so unwilling to be governed may be acted upon, as in the Flood, and of course we cannot control consequences). These latter entities use it as they see fit, but it comes from Christ.

We use the light of Christ whenever we choose, and whenever we apply those things that we act upon, either righteously or not. All things have the light in Christ in them, so working with it is unavoidable. We act upon the laws of nature, our resources and stewardships, our minds and bodies, with other people with various degrees of mastery and effectiveness. When we choose and act righteously, the priesthood (by that I mean the power of God) is behind us, and when we do not, amen to that backup.

[CV75]

41 minutes ago, JVW said:

Here's a question for you... Is there any light that exists in the entire universe that is not the "light of Christ"? Is there any other source of light besides Christ?

Consider this as well. Our entire reality is the electromagnetic spectrum and it's a real shame that people who research Electromagnetic Radiation (EMR) are regarded as pseudo-scientists. The way we perceive everything, all of our senses, our planet, the internet, whatever you name, it's all electromagnetic. There are waves, and particles, and fields, and all are invisible and interacting with us. I recently learned that scientists have been debating for decades about whether or not the DNA stored in our cells is an antenna or not. I believe there have been experiments done that have shown DNA to receive radio frequencies (or other electromagnetic wavelengths). Also consider the few ways that we've learned recently on how light impacts us. There is red light therapy, there's a thing with green light that I don't remember what it was, there is blue light that keeps us awake. In tracker rings like Oura there are little LEDs in the ring that just shine against your finger to give back biometric data to the app. Needless to say, I don't think it's an understatement to suggest that we know less than .01% of everything we can know about light and how it impacts our being. We even generate light in our bodies. And light appears to have some sort of intelligence, a classic example being the double slit experiment in which light behaved differently depending on whether or not it was being observed.

Light is in all things, through all things, and all things need it. I suggest that the "light of Christ" is a synonym for "light" but it adds additional definitions to the term. One, it attributes light to the One who creates it. Two, it suggests that light impacts us on a moral level. Three, it suggests that light impacts our intelligence and ability to exercise agency in correct ways. Four, it suggests that we store light and can increase the amount we store. Christ said "if your eye is single then your whole body shall be full of light" and "if the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness". So light is a topic that the perfect One chose to spend brief moments of His ministry speaking about. It is important, and you asked a good question.

I don't think that light and the Holy Ghost are the same thing. The Holy Ghost is definitely a member of the Godhead, and light emanates from God, it is not one person of the Godhead. As far as the Holy Ghost is concerned that's an entirely different topic, I'm not even sure that the Holy Ghost is male. (It is implied, but not explicitly stated in Nephi, but other than that there is no reference to the gender of the Holy Ghost.) Part of me likes to think of the Holy Ghost as being related to the love of the Mother, because thinking of the Godhead as the Father, the Mother, and the Son has a nice familial ring to it. On the other hand, the Godhead being all male is very traditional and falls under my beliefs about the use of the priesthood during mortal probation.

I would say that no light that exists in the entire universe is not governed by the "light of Christ." Without it (that glory -- D&C 93:30, 36) there is no existence anyway. Anything we designate as light is availed to us under the governance and organization of Christ. He may allow some/most of it to float around randomly in some spheres of chaos, but He does intervene quite a bit to organize it and uses His power and authority to do that. He allows us to use it to live and advance in the world around us, and He even allows the devil to use it to appear as an angel of light (hence Perdition, the eventual loss of all abused light).

Edited July 19, 2024 by CV75

[Nofear]

If one wants to go with the Light of Christ being a portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, than the microwaves associated with the cosmic microwave background would be the obvious choice as it quite literally pervades the entire universe. But, despite my belief in the literal and material nature of the Light of Christ, I don't believe it is part of the electromagnetic spectrum. For one, electromagnetic waves and spirit matter have a very poor, if any, interaction cross section (i.e. they pretty much just pass through each other). I suppose one could also argue for the cosmic neutrino background. But, same objection. Nevertheless, the physics of some thing of some sort or another pervading the immensity of space has precedent.

[marineland]

On 7/18/2024 at 11:38 AM, Rain said:

I've been reading Tao Te Ching. As I read poem 34 this morning I thought it kind of sounded like the light of Christ.

Tao Te Ching identified this impersonal source as something like electricity.  In 
poem 34, a few names are given for it. The Great is one of them.  It is also called
The Mother of all things in poem 25. 

The instruction in the beginning of poem 35 is dangerous.

I'm reading it from https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Works-Lao-Tzu-Ching/dp/0937064009

"When the subtle Way of the universe is taught,
people know where to go and what to learn,
because they know that they will not be harmed
but will receive great peace".

[Calm]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

The instruction in the beginning of poem 35 is dangerous.

Why?

[manol]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

The instruction in the beginning of poem 35 is dangerous.

How so?

[marineland]

On 7/19/2024 at 5:44 PM, Calm said:

Why?

@Manol

"When the subtle Way of the universe is taught,
people know where to go and what to learn,
because they know that they will not be harmed
but will receive great peace".

In Taoism, the subtle way of the universe refers to the Tao (or Dao), which can 
be understood as the fundamental principle or way that underlies everything in 
existence. The Tao is often described as elusive, subtle, and yet omnipresent. 
It is not easily grasped or articulated in words because it transcends conceptual 
understanding. 

Here are a few key points that elaborate on the subtle way of the universe in 
Taoist thought:

1. Tao as the Way: The term "Tao" literally means "way" or "path." It signifies 
the natural order and process of the universe. This includes both the physical 
laws governing the cosmos and the underlying principles of balance and harmony.

2. Subtlety and Effortlessness: Taoism emphasizes that the Tao operates subtly 
and effortlessly. It does not force or assert itself but instead flows naturally. 
Effortlessness is a key concept—actions that align with the Tao are spontaneous 
and in harmony with the natural flow of things.

3. Non-duality: The Taoist understanding of the universe is non-dualistic, 
meaning it sees all phenomena as interconnected and inseparable. This contrasts 
with Western dualistic views that often separate things into opposites (e.g., 
good vs. evil). In Taoism, there is a recognition of the unity of opposites within 
the Tao.

4. Mystical and Philosophical Dimensions: Taoism encompasses both mystical and 
philosophical dimensions. On one hand, it explores practices like meditation and 
internal alchemy to align with the Tao. On the other hand, it offers philosophical 
insights into the nature of reality, human conduct, and the role of individuals 
within the larger cosmos.

5. Living in Harmony: Understanding and aligning with the subtle way of the 
universe involves living in harmony with nature, oneself, and others. This harmony 
arises from an intuitive understanding of the Tao rather than from rigid rules or 
doctrines.

In essence, the subtle way of the universe in Taoism invites individuals to perceive 
and align with the natural order and flow of existence, embracing the principle of 
effortless action and living in harmony with the Tao.

[manol]

29 minutes ago, marineland said:

@Manol

"When the subtle Way of the universe is taught,
people know where to go and what to learn,
because they know that they will not be harmed
but will receive great peace".

In Taoism, the subtle way of the universe refers to the Tao (or Dao), which can 
be understood as the fundamental principle or way that underlies everything in 
existence. The Tao is often described as elusive, subtle, and yet omnipresent. 
It is not easily grasped or articulated in words because it transcends conceptual 
understanding. 

Here are a few key points that elaborate on the subtle way of the universe in 
Taoist thought:

1. Tao as the Way: The term "Tao" literally means "way" or "path." It signifies 
the natural order and process of the universe. This includes both the physical 
laws governing the cosmos and the underlying principles of balance and harmony.

2. Subtlety and Effortlessness: Taoism emphasizes that the Tao operates subtly 
and effortlessly. It does not force or assert itself but instead flows naturally. 
Effortlessness is a key concept—actions that align with the Tao are spontaneous 
and in harmony with the natural flow of things.

3. Non-duality: The Taoist understanding of the universe is non-dualistic, 
meaning it sees all phenomena as interconnected and inseparable. This contrasts 
with Western dualistic views that often separate things into opposites (e.g., 
good vs. evil). In Taoism, there is a recognition of the unity of opposites within 
the Tao.

4. Mystical and Philosophical Dimensions: Taoism encompasses both mystical and 
philosophical dimensions. On one hand, it explores practices like meditation and 
internal alchemy to align with the Tao. On the other hand, it offers philosophical 
insights into the nature of reality, human conduct, and the role of individuals 
within the larger cosmos.

5. Living in Harmony: Understanding and aligning with the subtle way of the 
universe involves living in harmony with nature, oneself, and others. This harmony 
arises from an intuitive understanding of the Tao rather than from rigid rules or 
doctrines.

In essence, the subtle way of the universe in Taoism invites individuals to perceive 
and align with the natural order and flow of existence, embracing the principle of 
effortless action and living in harmony with the Tao.

Thank you for this in-depth reply. 

I must be missing something obvious... can you explain why this is "dangerous"? 

Edited July 21, 2024 by manol

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, manol said:

must be missing something obvious... can you explain why this is "dangerous"? 

This…

[Kenngo1969]

I'm on my phone, so I haven't had the opportunity I otherwise might have to contemplate the thread in any depth.  I happened upon this in my Cyber travels.  I don't know if it does anything to answer the question, but, for what it's  worth ...

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-54-moroni-7?lang=eng

[marineland]

On 7/21/2024 at 12:54 PM, manol said:

Thank you for this in-depth reply. 

I must be missing something obvious... can you explain why this is "dangerous"? 

Tao is not the way. Jesus is the way.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, marineland said:

Tao is not the way. Jesus is the way.

From Alma 30: 40, "The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." All things denote there is a God, but they are not God. By the light of Christ all things will lead us to Jesus and the way once we have the opportunity. The danger is in willfully substituting things that only denote there is a God for God (idolatry in all its forms).

[manol]

9 hours ago, marineland said:

Tao is not the way. Jesus is the way.

Thank you for clarifying.

I guess my tendency is to see God's hand in all things (D&C 59:81), or at least in all things that lead men and women to do good (Moroni 7:12-14). So I don't see the teachings of Christ that we have in the scriptures, and the Tao, as being in competition.  Given that God commands people all over the world to write the words he speaks to them (2 Nephi 29:11), I don't find it surprising to find some of the teachings of Christ showing up in books which are not in the LDS canon, and imo the Tao Te Ching is one such book.

And arguably the Tao Te Ching's not being overtly religious has allowed it to continue leading men and women to do good in the context of an atheist, anti-religious society.   Maybe that's not an accident?  Maybe the hand of God is in it? 

Quoting from your previous post, and then following with a few paraphrased thoughts:

On 7/21/2024 at 11:27 AM, marineland said:

1. Tao as the Way: The term "Tao" literally means "way" or "path." It signifies the natural order and process of the universe. This includes both the physical laws governing the cosmos and the underlying principles of balance and harmony.

Some related ideas from the LDS canon:  Christ is the way, and Christ's teachings are also the way.  God is in all things, and through all things, and all things are by him, and of him.  We are to acknowledge God's hand in all things.  As Christ is one with the Father, we are to be one with Christ.

 

On 7/21/2024 at 11:27 AM, marineland said:

2. Subtlety and Effortlessness: Taoism emphasizes that the Tao operates subtly and effortlessly. It does not force or assert itself but instead flows naturally. Effortlessness is a key concept—actions that align with the Tao are spontaneous and in harmony with the natural flow of things.

Some related ideas from the LDS canon: Christ taught, “My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” God speaks to us in a still, small, subtle voice.

 

On 7/21/2024 at 11:27 AM, marineland said:

3. Non-duality: The Taoist understanding of the universe is non-dualistic, meaning it sees all phenomena as interconnected and inseparable. This contrasts with Western dualistic views that often separate things into opposites (e.g., good vs. evil). In Taoism, there is a recognition of the unity of opposites within the Tao.

Some related ideas from the LDS canon:  All of these things shall give you experience and shall be for your good. God is in all things and through all things, and all things are by him and of him.

 

On 7/21/2024 at 11:27 AM, marineland said:

4. Mystical and Philosophical Dimensions: Taoism encompasses both mystical and philosophical dimensions. On one hand, it explores practices like meditation and internal alchemy to align with the Tao. On the other hand, it offers philosophical insights into the nature of reality, human conduct, and the role of individuals within the larger cosmos.

Some related ideas from the LDS canon: We are to commune with God in secret, in our heart and in our mind. We are to love God without reservation, and love our neighbor as if our neighbor is ourself.

 

On 7/21/2024 at 11:27 AM, marineland said:

5. Living in Harmony: Understanding and aligning with the subtle way of the universe involves living in harmony with nature, oneself, and others. This harmony arises from an intuitive understanding of the Tao rather than from rigid rules or doctrines.

Some related ideas from the LDS canon:  We are to be peacemakers.  We are to forgive without keeping score. The letter of the law killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

*  *  *

Drawing simultaneously from both paradigms:  Christ is the Way.  Christ is the Tao.

If you open yourself to the Tao, you and Tao become one. If you open yourself to Christ, you and Christ become one.

Isn't that what's supposed to happen?

Edited July 24, 2024 by manol

[marineland]

On 7/23/2024 at 9:57 PM, manol said:

Drawing simultaneously from both paradigms:  Christ is the Way.  Christ is the Tao.

If you open yourself to the Tao, you and Tao become one. If you open yourself to Christ, you and Christ become one.

Isn't that what's supposed to happen?

Taoism, with other eastern religious philosophies, reject the atonement of Christ.