What is the light of Christ?

[Rain]

I've been reading Tao Te Ching. As I read poem 34 this morning I thought it kind of sounded like the light of Christ.  Then I realized I don't actually know what that is with the way the church teaches it. 

When you are confirmed the church teaches you have the Spirit with you all the time , communicating with you. Everyone gets the light of Christ even though not confirmed so there is obviously something different about it.  Is there a difference in closeness, how much communication or is it something entirely different than the Spirit and if so what is it? Have leaders talked about it in more detail? 

 

Edit: To be clear, I'm not really asking what the light of Christ does. I'm asking what it is.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Rain

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, Rain said:

I've been reading Tao Te Ching. As I read poem 34 this morning I thought it kind of sounded like the light of Christ.  Then I realized I don't actually know what that is with the way the church teaches it. 

When you are confirmed the church teaches you have the Spirit with you all the time , communicating with you. Everyone gets the light of Christ even though not confirmed so there is obviously something different about it.  Is there a difference in closeness, how much communication or is it something entirely different than the Spirit and if so what is it? Have leaders talked about it in more detail? 

In Doctrines of Salvation Joseph Fielding Smith talks about the Spirit that pervades all things and the Holy Spirit. How it explained it was new to me, I'll try to dig up the quote later.

[webbles]

President Oaks, back in 1996, gave a talk that talked about the difference between the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1996/10/always-have-his-spirit?lang=eng

Here's the relevant part:

Quote

In highlighting the gift of the Holy Ghost as a distinguishing characteristic of our faith, we need to understand the important differences between (1) the Light of Christ, (2) a manifestation of the Holy Ghost, and (3) the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Light of Christ, which is sometimes called the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of God, “giveth light to every man that cometh into the world” (D&C 84:46). This is the light “which is in all things, which giveth life to all things” (D&C 88:13). The prophet Mormon taught that “the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil” (Moro. 7:16; see also Moro. 7:19; 2 Ne. 2:5; Hel. 14:31). Elder Lorenzo Snow spoke of this light when he said, “Everybody has the Spirit of God” (in Journal of Discourses, 14:304). The Light of Christ enlightens and gives understanding to all men (see D&C 88:11).

In contrast, a manifestation of the Holy Ghost is more focused. This manifestation is given to acquaint sincere seekers with the truth about the Lord and his gospel. For example, the prophet Moroni promises that when we study the Book of Mormon and seek to know whether it is true, sincerely and with real intent, God will “manifest” the truth of it unto us, “by the power of the Holy Ghost” (Moro. 10:4). Moroni also records this promise from the Risen Lord: “He that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true” (Ether 4:11).

These manifestations are available to everyone. The Book of Mormon declares that the Savior “manifesteth himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost; yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people” (2 Ne. 26:13).

To repeat, the Light of Christ is given to all men and women that they may know good from evil; manifestations of the Holy Ghost are given to lead sincere seekers to gospel truths that will persuade them to repentance and baptism.

The gift of the Holy Ghost is more comprehensive.

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by webbles

[manol]

My belief is that the Light of Christ is the literal but non-physical presence of Christ, which is unconstrained by locality, as taught in Section 88 of the D&C:  

"He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through ALL THINGS, the light of truth,  which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ...  Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— The light which is in all things..." (emphasis mine)

I believe that we are in the presence of Christ right now, but we spend most of our time spiritually "tuned in" to lower "radio stations", so to speak, and so are unaware.  When we love God without reservation, and we love our neighbor as ourself, imo we are "tuned in" to that aspect of Christ which is literally within us and within all things, as described in D&C 88 and by poem 34 of the Tao Te Ching. 

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by manol

[Calm]

Light of Christ was essentially taught to me as our own Jiminy Cricket…but conveyed as feelings and thoughts or perhaps just vague awareness, not personified

In an odd twist, I just came across this when double checking the spelling:

Quote

"Jiminy", along with variants "Jiminy Christmas" and "Jiminy cricket" have been used as minced oaths for "Jesus Christ" since at least 1803.^[7] 

Of course this was in Primary and early MIA.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

I notice that some have trouble understanding me, so I will add more capitalized words which are important to the concept I am trying to convey, and see if that works. 

Virtually every religion believes in some sort of "intelligence" in "the universe", or some kind of "force" that guides and directs us- but many of these religions also do not connect it to the concept of "God".

There are atheists who acknowledge a "force" like this but denying that it comes from some entity- it is more LIKE, say, the magnetic field of the earth.  I am not saying they say this force IS the magnetic field, but the field is an ANALOGY for its existence without needing to postulate that it has anything to do an entity like God.

This is an example of a worldly interpretation of what we CALL "the light of Christ" put together by that great theologian  Oprah Winfrey:

https://www.oprah.com/own-digitaloriginals/oprah-pay-attention-to-the-whispers-of-the-universe-video

I personally see the LoC  as the INTELLIGENCE of God permeating the universe that we are able to "tap into"- or that in fact we were CREATED to use as a built-in "Liahona"- and that it operates as a kind of "quale"-plural- "Qualia"- like a sixth sense.  That is a philosophical concept.  

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, manol said:

My belief is that the Light of Christ is the literal but non-physical presence of Christ, which is unconstrained by locality, as taught in Section 88 of the D&C:  

"He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through ALL THINGS, the light of truth,  which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ...  Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— The light which is in all things..." (emphasis mine)

I believe that we are in the presence of Christ right now, but we spend most of our time spiritually "tuned in" to lower "radio stations", so to speak, and so are unaware.  When we love God without reservation, and we love our neighbor as ourself, imo we are "tuned in" to that aspect of Christ which is literally within us and within all things, as described in D&C 88 and by poem 34 of the Tao Te Ching. 

 

Yep.

It's like tapping into God's own INTELLIGENCE that permeates all that God knows.   He is the library we go to with questions.

No, it is not the internet , but there are some analogies!

 

[mfbukowski]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Light of Christ was essentially taught to me as our own Jiminy Cricket…but conveyed as feelings and thoughts or perhaps just vague awareness, not personified

In an odd twist, I just came across this when double checking the spelling:

Of course this was in Primary and early MIA.

Amazing that Disney would get this close to being "religious".

Ah yes, the good old days.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I've been reading Tao Te Ching. As I read poem 34 this morning I thought it kind of sounded like the light of Christ.  Then I realized I don't actually know what that is with the way the church teaches it. 

When you are confirmed the church teaches you have the Spirit with you all the time , communicating with you. Everyone gets the light of Christ even though not confirmed so there is obviously something different about it.  Is there a difference in closeness, how much communication or is it something entirely different than the Spirit and if so what is it? Have leaders talked about it in more detail? 

In addition to the other comments, the Light of Christ comes from Him to all creation, with various levels of interplay between Him personally (if belief is sufficient) and secondarily (where belief has nothing to do with it), depending on whether, and the degree with which, the organized entity is acting or is being acted upon. It sets the laws in motion.

The Holy Ghost, as a God, has similar power and influence as Christ, but it is limited to witnessing of the Father and the Son, with an eye toward the formal covenant relationship that comes by way of ordinance. The Gift and constant (in terms of both relational reliability and duration) companionship of the Holy Ghost are two formal aspects of that covenant relationship that lead to full fruition of that divine relationship. They help us set charity/love in motion as we become one with God in applying the laws that have been set in motion by the Light of Christ.

[ZealouslyStriving]

BTW, the Tao Te Ching is awesome! I consider it one of the best apocryphal books. Do you have the app. with the gorgeous paintings?

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, CV75 said:

but it is limited to witnessing of the Father and the Son, with an eye toward the formal covenant relationship that comes by way of ordinance.

So are you suggesting that we confuse inspiration from the Light of Christ with whispering of the Spirit if it is more than witnessing of the Father and Son for those who do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost?  If so, I can see that, but it seems contrary to scripture or at least my impression of what scripture teaches because no specifics are popping into my mind yet.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Amazing that Disney would get this close to being "religious".

Ah yes, the good old days.

As long as you ignore the racism in many of the older animated films, I guess.  I loved Dumbo as a child.  Next time I saw it I cringed.  My husband was a big fan of the Brer Rabbit stories and loved Song of the South.  Brer Rabbit is still a classic trickster character (skip the movie and go for the original stories…well, the written versions of the oral traditions) but a white, middle aged man doing the dialects definitely gives a different impression than a little kid doing them.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I notice that some have trouble understanding me, so I will add more capitalized words which are important to the concept I am trying to convey, and see if that works. 

Virtually every religion believes in some sort of "intelligence" in "the universe", or some kind of "force" that guides and directs us- but many of these religions also do not connect it to the concept of "God".

There are atheists who acknowledge a "force" like this but denying that it comes from some entity- it is more LIKE, say, the magnetic field of the earth.  I am not saying they say this force IS the magnetic field, but the field is an ANALOGY for its existence without needing to postulate that it has anything to do an entity like God.

This is an example of a worldly interpretation of what we CALL "the light of Christ" put together by that great theologian  Oprah Winfrey:

https://www.oprah.com/own-digitaloriginals/oprah-pay-attention-to-the-whispers-of-the-universe-video

I personally see the LoC  as the INTELLIGENCE of God permeating the universe that we are able to "tap into"- or that in fact we were CREATED to use as a built-in "Liahona"- and that it operates as a kind of "quale"-plural- "Qualia"- like a sixth sense.  That is a philosophical concept.  

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/

 

Rather than editing what has already been read, I want to add this to the above quoted post.

If a bird with a tiny brain can follow "The Light of Christ"- sort of? then why do people doubt that such things are possible?

Maybe it evolved or maybe God designed it all- I have no doubt whatsoever that this "Force" exists and we can tap into it.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/hudsonian-godwit-flies-thousands-miles-without-resting-180979248/

 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

So are you suggesting that we confuse inspiration from the Light of Christ with whispering of the Spirit if it is more than witnessing of the Father and Son for those who do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost?  If so, I can see that, but it seems contrary to scripture or at least my impression of what scripture teaches because no specifics are popping into my mind yet.

@Calm ETA: Apologies, I did this on my phone and did not grasp what you were asking!

The specific scriptures I am thinking about for people having a spiritual witnesses without the Gift of the Holy Ghost are Moroni 10:4 5 and 3 Nephi 9: 20. I don't think these examples show a manifestation that is "more than witnessing of the Father and Son." The same people can enjoy the light of Christ in many areas, all of which affirm life and bring happiness. Because the light shines in darkness, people can enjoy it even when they do not have the Gospel, or are involved in what we might consider wicked practices. I see this as a form of grace, since they still find happiness in the doing all the light they can do, if not the darkness. Hence a returned missionary once told our ward that the cannibals were some of the most spiritual people he ever met.

On the other hand, The Gift of the Holy Ghost is obtained by ordinance following the baptism covenant, and the companionship of the Holy Ghost is an outgrowth of honoring that baptismal covenant, the beginning of an ongoing, growing covenant relationship. Any point of doctrine, ordinance, offering, service or sacrifice we make, when ratified by the Holy Ghost, all witness of the Father and the Son (more so as we become like Christ. No one can have this ratification without the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which can be had eventually by anyone honoring the light of Christ they are given. People without the Gift of the Holy Ghost can do plenty of good things, and their familiarity with the light of Christ will someday lead them to the Gospel message, ordinances and covenants, whether here or in the hereafter.

---

original post:

I think there are many kinds of inspiration, some resulting from the fundamental quickening of our minds / mental states brought about by the light of Christ that do not testify of Christ and God,  and some coming as a communication from the Holy Ghost which witnesses. The faithful may enjoy their inspiration from the light of Christ with the added glory of the companionship of the Holy Ghost because of their doctrinal knowledge, in which case they may leverage such inspiration to improve their companionship with and answers from the Holy Ghost.

Some inspiration comes from reduced quickening of senses that have been prejudiced, dulled or otherwise interferred with; some from filtered communication from the Holy Ghost for similar reasons; some from other people or muses; and, some from darker sources and forces.

I would say the inspiration from the light of Christ, when applied to goodness, gets us into a moral position to receive inspiration from the Holy Ghost, which gets us inro a covenant position with God.

Edited July 18, 2024 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

So are you suggesting that we confuse inspiration from the Light of Christ with whispering of the Spirit if it is more than witnessing of the Father and Son for those who do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost?  If so, I can see that, but it seems contrary to scripture or at least my impression of what scripture teaches because no specifics are popping into my mind yet.

I see it all as ONE "thing" since the most important revelations I have ever received in my life, happened to me before I received the "Holy Ghost"- ie. joining the church at all!

I believe that what is PERCEIVED as what we call the "Holy Ghost" is the same force as the Light of Christ, but as we progress, it gets stronger.  It was difficult for me at first, but as I joined the church and etc, I found it was "easier" to feel this force.- or revelation.

It's easier now to "tap into" whatever this "is"- but now it has a different quality.

It's like the difference between black and white and color TV - when I was a kid.

We can watch movies just fine in black and white, but in color, we "get" more symbology and more nuance-a green leaf gives us more information about the seasons etc, that would not be present in a black and white view of the same leaf.

I think it's kinda like that.

The information is the same but the nuances and implications- the RELATIONSHIPS of what is "going on"- are much more nuanced through what is termed "The Holy Ghost".

It is said that one cannot step into the "Same" river twice (Heraclitus, Greek philosopher) due to the swirling of leaves, the presence of birds and all the details that make up the perceptions of the river from second to second, yet the difference between the river frozen and the river through the seasons are much more dramatically NOT the "SAME" river.

It's like that, I think.

The differences become more clear with the HG than with the LoC

Edited July 18, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Saint Bonaventure]

In the Catholic Church the Lumen Christi is bursting with meaning both at Easter Vigil and at baptism.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, manol said:

My belief is that the Light of Christ is the literal but non-physical presence of Christ, which is unconstrained by locality, as taught in Section 88 of the D&C:  

So would you feel the bold is similar with the Holy Ghost? That what people feel is the literal, but non physical presence of the Holy Ghost?

Do you think this is different or the same that the church would think about it? 

4 hours ago, manol said:

"He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through ALL THINGS, the light of truth,  which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ...  Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— The light which is in all things..." (emphasis mine)

I believe that we are in the presence of Christ right now, but we spend most of our time spiritually "tuned in" to lower "radio stations", so to speak, and so are unaware.  When we love God without reservation, and we love our neighbor as ourself, imo we are "tuned in" to that aspect of Christ which is literally within us and within all things, as described in D&C 88 and by poem 34 of the Tao Te Ching. 

 

 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Rain said:

I've been reading Tao Te Ching. As I read poem 34 this morning I thought it kind of sounded like the light of Christ.  Then I realized I don't actually know what that is with the way the church teaches it. 

When you are confirmed the church teaches you have the Spirit with you all the time , communicating with you. Everyone gets the light of Christ even though not confirmed so there is obviously something different about it.  Is there a difference in closeness, how much communication or is it something entirely different than the Spirit and if so what is it? Have leaders talked about it in more detail? 

Edit: To be clear, I'm not really asking what the light of Christ does. I'm asking what it is.

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep.

It's like tapping into God's own INTELLIGENCE that permeates all that God knows.   He is the library we go to with questions.

No, it is not the internet , but there are some analogies!

 

And a most important thing to understand is that this divine intelligence is material, and that the Father and the Son possess this tangible, divine material substance of holy light, knowledge and power in infinite and eternal fullness. It is by the means of this mutually and equally shared divine material substance of intelligence that the Father is able to dwell in the Son and the Son is able to dwell in the Father. It’s the ultimate purpose of God that his sons and daughters might also be filled to infinite and eternal fullness with this divine material substance of holy light, knowledge and power, and this that the saints may dwell in the Father and the Son, and that the Father and the Son dwell in the saints. Like it or not, it is this intelligent material substance that unifies all things in God, and here’s the proof.

LECTURE 5 - Lectures of Faith
Lec 5:2m and these three constitute the Godhead and are one: the Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same wisdom, glory, power, and fullness;

Lec 5:2n filling all in all -the Son being filled with the fullness of the Mind, glory, and power; or in other words the Spirit, glory, and power of the Father - possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom;

Lec 5:2o sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father - a Mediator for man - being filled with the fullness of the Mind of the Father, or in other words, the Spirit of the Father;

Lec 5:2p which Spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments;

Lec 5:2q and all those who keep his commandments shall grow up from grace to grace, and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ;

Lec 5:2r possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all;

Lec 5:2s being filled with the fullness of his glory, and become one in him, even as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. (Lectures on Faith 5). 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I notice that some have trouble understanding me, so I will add more capitalized words which are important to the concept I am trying to convey, and see if that works. 

Virtually every religion believes in some sort of "intelligence" in "the universe", or some kind of "force" that guides and directs us- but many of these religions also do not connect it to the concept of "God".

There are atheists who acknowledge a "force" like this but denying that it comes from some entity- it is more LIKE, say, the magnetic field of the earth.  I am not saying they say this force IS the magnetic field, but the field is an ANALOGY for its existence without needing to postulate that it has anything to do an entity like God.

This is an example of a worldly interpretation of what we CALL "the light of Christ" put together by that great theologian  Oprah Winfrey:

https://www.oprah.com/own-digitaloriginals/oprah-pay-attention-to-the-whispers-of-the-universe-video

I personally see the LoC  as the INTELLIGENCE of God permeating the universe that we are able to "tap into"- or that in fact we were CREATED to use as a built-in "Liahona"- and that it operates as a kind of "quale"-plural- "Qualia"- like a sixth sense.  That is a philosophical concept.  

So you feel it is intelligence that has power ("force")?

Do you feel this is how the church thinks of it?

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/

 

 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

BTW, the Tao Te Ching is awesome! I consider it one of the best apocryphal books. Do you have the app. with the gorgeous paintings?

I do not. Which app? 

[Rain]

48 minutes ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

In the Catholic Church the Lumen Christi is bursting with meaning both at Easter Vigil and at baptism.

Would you tell me more about this please?

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

I do not. Which app? 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=wisdomLabs.dailyandrandomtao

It has a bunch of different translation to choose from and beautiful artwork.

[manol]

53 minutes ago, Rain said:

So would you feel the bold is similar with the Holy Ghost? That what people feel is the literal, but non physical presence of the Holy Ghost?

I am unable to differentiate between the two.  I haven't been a member for over two decades and don't recall having a "the heavens are now closed to me" experience, and of course there could be multiple possible explanations for this.

@mfbukowski said it better than I could:

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I see it all as ONE "thing" since the most important revelations I have ever received in my life, happened to me before I received the "Holy Ghost"- ie. joining the church at all!

I believe that what is PERCEIVED as what we call the "Holy Ghost" is the same force as the Light of Christ...

I think they are probably the same thing, rather than two different things from two different sources, but I could easily be wrong.

 

53 minutes ago, Rain said:

Do you think this is different or the same that the church would think about it?

My current belief (that the two are probably the same) is quite a bit different from what I believed during my years as a member.  I used to believe they came from different sources and had different and specific roles.

My current belief is that the LDS practice of bestowing the Gift of the Holy Ghost on a person immediately after baptism is brilliant regardless of whether or not it is functionally any different from the Light of Christ, because it gives permission/empowers/validates/emphasizes individuals seeking and aligning to and listening for and trusting in the still, small inner voice that speaks for God.

And imo the concept of "the companionship of the Holy Ghost" is likewise highly valuable, as it teaches that one can remain "tuned in" to the "radio station" the inner voice that speaks for God is "broadcasting" on. 

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by manol

[Saint Bonaventure]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Would you tell me more about this please?

Glad to do so.

It is traditional to have a fire for Easter Vigil Mass, and to light candles for everyone from that fire. Then everyone processes into the darkened church while the priest says, "the light of Christ," or "Lumen Christi," and the congregation responds with "Thanks be to God," or "Deo Gratias." This signifies Christ's victory over death and his role as the light that dispels darkness. Dante may have been drawing on this ceremony a bit in Inferno.

At baptism, a candle, a "Lumen Christi," is lit to signify that the newly baptized person has received the light of Christ and that they are called to live as children of light.

There is also a tradition amongst those who pray the liturgy of the hours to light a candle when praying the Vespers prayer, as a way of representing that the Light of Christ dispels the darkness.