David Archuleta's new single about he and (some in?) his family leaving the Faith

[Calm]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

So basically:

"If you don't accept and celebrate us and allow us full participation in the Church in spite of doctrines on chastity, you are uncaring and have zero empathy."

No, I think people assume someone is uncaring if there doesn’t appear to be an attempt to understand the experience from a different point of view and instead the person just repeats their own position over and over, including rewriting what others say to make it fit.

I do believe someone can care and still act that way.  Not everyone’s brains can shift to view an idea from any particular angle.  Probably no one can do it for all angles.  Our personal experiences are too limited.  But in that case it’s important to understand one’s own limitations.

Edited March 29, 2024 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

72 twinks?

If this kind of reasoning was in scripture I would find it much more palatable but it is mostly the stuff of folklore and reasoning out what God will do based on incomplete information. And on a personal note many promises for this life failed so I am dubious of promises from the same sources about a future life.

It is also vaguely infantilizing. Look at how lucky you are to get to suffer. It will all be worth it. Meanwhile the person suffering wants the suffering to stop. It is often done by conflating the chosen suffering of scriptural heroes with the unchosen suffering of those who had it thrust upon them.

I think my own struggles in this area have made me more empathetic and more kind. I don’t think it made me more holy. It made me more suspicious of God and led me to the conclusion that seeking and knocking don’t always lead to finding and doors being opened.

This is where it gets tiresome. You sound like gays/queers are the only ones that have to endure desires that are not in accordance with God's standards. 

God doesn't magically make inclinations go away, He helps us make the choice to be obedient. But we have to have the desire.

 

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

think my own struggles in this area have made me more empathetic and more kind. I don’t think it made me more holy. It made me more suspicious of God and led me to the conclusion that seeking and knocking don’t always lead to finding and doors being opened.

It hurts to know it has gone this way for you.  I haven’t had much finding, but somehow I have never felt alone (meaning God, I feel alone a lot in regard to people) and that has been enough.

Maybe because the way I struggle isn’t usually seen as a moral issue (though occasionally I run into someone who goes the “if you have enough faith, you will be healed” routine).  And while poor health can be very isolating, it’s more physical isolation for me and that waxes and wanes.  Emotional isolation would be much harder to deal with.

Edited March 29, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You sound like gays/queers are the only ones that have to endure desires that are not in accordance with God's standards. 

It is not just about desire.  That may not even be a big part of it.  It about how you see the world and what your place is in it, what’s expected of you, what’s good, what’s not, how you achieve balance, how you feel loss, how you belong, how you are isolated…think of it like language.  Think of being told your language is not good, that you have to change it.  You have to dump all your books, all your cultural expression, etc.  Your music, much of your art (symbology is often dependent on language, idioms, etc). That if you even think in that language for more than a brief impulse you are committing a sin.  But you have no other language to replace it and yet people are telling you “just speak my language, it’s easy enough”, only they can’t tell you how they learned it because they learned it as children just as you learned your language.

Edited March 29, 2024 by Calm

[Daniel2]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

To be with those we love in eternal family relationships there are conditions that must be met, otherwise we are around those we are the most comfortable with. As the Book of Mormon emphasizes over and over and over again- it is our choice. When personal desires make that difficult is when faith that God knows what He's doing and will make right any sacrifice we must make in this life. I can't imagine the glorious reward those who experience SSA will receive if they adhere to their covenants and sacrifice their personal desires. Heavenly Father knows the pain, loneliness, and struggles of all His children. Do we really believe He will let that all go to waste?

If God truly exists as the Elohim and Jehovah of Mormonism, and in some post-mortal judgement, I am required to stand before them and bend my knee and be judged--an event that I pondered, prayed, fasted, sacrificed, searched, and wrestled with from every conceivable angle for decades prior to leaving Mormonism--I am fully at peace submitting my life as I have it today for their judgement. Even after years of considering the unimaginable blessings promised by Mormonism, including removing my same-sex attractions, becoming heterosexual, marrying a post-mortal wife, and ultimately becoming co-joint heirs with her, God, and Christ as co-participants in an ongoing plan where I myself might have been able to reach deification, I am at peace with my decision to make the necessary changes in my life to lead the one I have today with my husband and our family at my side during this life. I am fully aware that devout members may believe I have sold my birthright for a mess of pottage.  I am confident that I'm finally living the life I was meant to live, and know that I will hold up my life and accept whatever judgement from Jehovah that He sees fit, eternally grateful for the mortal life I lived and the man I loved. My life will not have been in vain or a waste--that flies in the face of all of the fruits of the spirit, which I finally am able to experience in ways I never had before finding my husband and the relationship we share.

Edited March 29, 2024 by Daniel2

[Daniel2]

50 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Start at 2:46

“I have my agency I can do what I want” - “No you can’t! You don’t understand agency…” “The hymn is called choose the right not choose what you want.”

Exceptional example, SeekingUnderstanding. Thanks for sharing.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

If God truly exists as Elohim and Jehovah, and in some post-mortal judgement, I am required to stand before them and bend my knee and be judged--an event that I pondered, prayed, fasted, sacrificed, searched, and wrestled with from every conceivable angle for decades prior to leaving Mormonism--I am fully at peace submitting my life as I have it today for their judgement. Even after years of considering the unimaginable blessings promised by Mormonism, including removing my same-sex attractions, becoming heterosexual, and ultimately co-joint heirs with God and Christ and co-participants in an ongoing plan where I myself might have been able to reach deification, I am at peace with my decision to make the necessary changes in my life to lead the one I have today with my husband and our family at my side during this life. I am fully aware that devout members may believe I have sold my birthright for a mess of pottage.  I am confident that I'm finally living the life I was meant to live, and know that I will hold up my life and accept whatever judgement from Jehovah that He sees fit, grateful for the mortal life I lived and the man I loved. My life will not have been in vain or a waste--that flies in the face of all of the fruits of the spirit, which I finally am able to experience in ways I never had before finding my husband and the relationship we share.

I can appreciate that, would that all humbly submit to the Lord's judgement, no excuses.

No one life is in vain or a waste, all have learned things they would've never learned without this mortal probation.

[pogi]

53 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Start at 2:46

“I have my agency I can do what I want” - “No you can’t! You don’t understand agency…” “The hymn is called choose the right not choose what you want.”

I bet this is what he was referencing in his lyrics when he said, "said...we can't choose".   

 

[california boy]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

To be with those we love in eternal family relationships there are conditions that must be met, otherwise we are around those we are the most comfortable with. As the Book of Mormon emphasizes over and over and over again- it is our choice. When personal desires make that difficult is when faith that God knows what He's doing and will make right any sacrifice we must make in this life.

Oh I trust that God knows what he is doing.  I highly doubt Church leaders know what they are doing concerning LGBT issues.  There has been no revelation on gay marriage or what will happen to those who are LGBT in the next life.  

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

 

I can't imagine the glorious reward those who experience SSA will receive if they adhere to their covenants and sacrifice their personal desires. Heavenly Father knows the pain, loneliness, and struggles of all His children. Do we really believe He will let that all go to waste?

What kind of glorious reward is offered to someone who is LGBT?  I have never heard anything from a revelation from God on this issue.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

I love Pres. Nelson but I also do look forward to the day Elder Bednar assumes Joseph's seat.

Edited March 29, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[rpn]

I think the twin issues of culturally adopting a there is a one, who we are in mortal life is more important than who we are eternally are both part of how this thinking gets foster.  See last 10 minutes particularly.

[california boy]

24 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

If God truly exists as the Elohim and Jehovah of Mormonism, and in some post-mortal judgement, I am required to stand before them and bend my knee and be judged--an event that I pondered, prayed, fasted, sacrificed, searched, and wrestled with from every conceivable angle for decades prior to leaving Mormonism--I am fully at peace submitting my life as I have it today for their judgement. Even after years of considering the unimaginable blessings promised by Mormonism, including removing my same-sex attractions, becoming heterosexual, and ultimately co-joint heirs with God and Christ and co-participants in an ongoing plan where I myself might have been able to reach deification, I am at peace with my decision to make the necessary changes in my life to lead the one I have today with my husband and our family at my side during this life. I am fully aware that devout members may believe I have sold my birthright for a mess of pottage.  I am confident that I'm finally living the life I was meant to live, and know that I will hold up my life and accept whatever judgement from Jehovah that He sees fit, grateful for the mortal life I lived and the man I loved. My life will not have been in vain or a waste--that flies in the face of all of the fruits of the spirit, which I finally am able to experience in ways I never had before finding my husband and the relationship we share.

Like you, I thought a lot about the judgement of God.  As much as I tried through fasting, prayer, and crying to God to not be gay, nothing ever changed.  I was as gay as I was when I first realized it at age 12.  I actually decided to go on a mission because in my mind, I thought that when I stood before God and he condemned me for being gay, I could at least say that I had given up two years of my life for Him.  i even got married because Church leaders promised that if I just married a woman, these feelings and attractions I had for men would fade away.  Yeah, that proved to be untrue.  I am no longer ashamed to be gay.  I have no regrets finding the love of my life and the many. joys and love that has brought into my life.  God will do with me what he may.  My hope, like Joseph Smiths is that if I am sent to hell, I will be with some of the finest people I have ever met.  

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

This is where it gets tiresome. You sound like gays/queers are the only ones that have to endure desires that are not in accordance with God's standards. 

God doesn't magically make inclinations go away, He helps us make the choice to be obedient. But we have to have the desire.

In their error President Kimball and the others who insisted God wouldn’t make people like this saw this more clearly than you do. The desire to bond with a spouse is tied inextricably to the ordinances of exaltation. To them this was so fundamental that God would NEVER put that on anyone because it would be unfair and unjust.

Then when reality shows that God in fact does let exactly that happen the whole thing is downplayed as being just like any other desire or inclination.

Which is it? Are the ordinances of exaltation not as important as we thought and making people who are indifferent to or repulsed by them okay? Or are they a big deal?

This kind of waffling doesn’t exactly inspire confidence that statements come via revelation.

Edited March 29, 2024 by The Nehor

[Daniel2]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Ok.  Just watched the video.  It's a touching tribute to dude's mother's love.  I can appreciate it on its merits, while still disagreeing with the overall message.

It makes me think about my totally a-religious father, who went his entire life utterly uninterested in religion.  I've done his temple work, but absent some other-side-of-the-veil mighty change of heart, he's off organizing a poker game in paradise.  Looking for the postmortal version of beer, chortling over some risque thoughts about what girl angels have under their robes.  I loved and love the guy, and have spent a lifetime seeking to emulate his more desirable characteristics.  But I won't be abandoning my faith because he may not be exalted.  He would think less of me if I did.  Plus, I have no clue where I'll end up.  Plus, I do have hope and trust that all will be well, and the eternal perfect blend of justice and mercy will work in favor of both me and my dad.

The notion that "I'm built in a way that excludes me from heaven" is one that our church rejects strongly, and often preaches against.  Sorry to hear another one is buyin' the lie.

Thanks for the link to the lyrics video. I found it even more moving. It’s also clear to me based on the imagery, used that David Archuleta wrote this as a far more universal reflection of many’s religious/LGBT experience then just Mormonism, as is also evidenced by the diversity of religions represented in the comments on the YouTube site.

[ttribe]

33 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I love Pres. Nelson but I also do look forward to the day Elder Bednar assumes Joseph's seat.

So do many exmos, but probably for very different reasons.

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In their error President Kimball and the others who insisted God wouldn’t make people like this saw this more clearly than you do. The desire to bond with a spouse is tied inextricably to the ordinances of exaltation. To them this was so fundamental that God would NEVER put that on anyone because it would be unfair and unjust.

Then when reality shows that God in fact does let exactly that happen the whole thing is downplayed as being just like any other desire or inclination.

Which is it? Are the ordinances of exaltation not as important as we thought and making people who are indifferent to or repulsed by them okay? Or are they a big deal?

This kind of waffling doesn’t exactly inspire confidence that statements come via revelation.

I think the desire to bond is natural. The ordinance is a covenant and a choice. The desire to bond with God, in my opinion, is basically natural for those coming into mortality but can be corrupted due to tradition or trauma (I use the terms broadly), usually to the point of refusing the ordinance(s). All of God's children have to discover or rediscover this desire as accountable beings. But in the gospel, or Zion, this intentional bond with God has to come before choosing to employ sexual bonding as one of the many expressions of the ordinance or covenant of marriage.

So I would say that sexual bonding is one if the expressions of the ordinance of exaltation (marriage), but that the desire for sexual bonding is not to be the driver. It is obviously the driver for many other relationships and covenants, but the ordinance of God is driven by the desire for bonding with Him and Adam and Eve's covenant family and future posterity born into that covenant. He is the driver and it is driven on His terms. Granted that is a bigger picture than what is customarily recognized and put out there. 

Edited March 30, 2024 by CV75

[pogi]

I haven’t watched it yet, but here is the Mormon stories episode with David’s mom.  Might add some context to the song.

 

[Daniel2]

David has an official comment below his YouTube video that provides additional insight—the song is indeed based on a comment his mother made when he let he know he was stepping away.  

Edited March 30, 2024 by Daniel2

[ZealouslyStriving]

https://youtu.be/7696h0Qeb_s?si=7T7LfiBVHrCAkqWM

[Calm]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

I think the twin issues of culturally adopting a there is a one, who we are in mortal life is more important than who we are eternally are both part of how this thinking gets foster.  See last 10 minutes particularly.

I do like the idea of the core of the person’s being is they are a child of God, child of the covenant, and a disciple of Christ and other aspects being orbital to that core***.  But I don’t understand why the roles of father and husband/mother and wife can be part of that core being, but sexual identity/expression is not, it is only orbital when fatherhood and husband/motherhood and wife is part of one’s sexual identity in this life (we are married in part because it’s an expression of our attraction as is having children).

***There is also the issue of what those three natures actually mean and how does one determine the meaning.

Edited March 30, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

Journal of Discourses 17:159; “Joseph used to say that he would have her (Emma)hereafter, if he had to go to hell for her, and he will have to go to hell for her as sure as he ever gets her.” – Brigham Young, Lehi City, Utah, August 9, 1874

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

Journal of Discourses 17:159; “Joseph used to say that he would have her (Emma)hereafter, if he had to go to hell for her, and he will have to go to hell for her as sure as he ever gets her.” – Brigham Young, Lehi City, Utah, August 9, 1874

Joseph was never in danger of losing Emma:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God." (D&C 132:26)

*Brigham's hyperbole is entertaining sometimes.*

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God." (D&C 132:26)

So someone could become a son of perdition and as long as they don’t murder someone, they will still be exalted?

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

So someone could become a son of perdition and as long as they don’t murder someone, they will still be exalted?

If they've become a son of perdition I believe they are excluded.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Joseph was never in danger of losing Emma:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God." (D&C 132:26)

*Brigham's hyperbole is entertaining sometimes.*

This is one of the scriptures that leads me to believe movement between the kingdoms is possible, including up to exaltation…or perhaps we will simply all be in the Celestial Kingdom by the time of the day of redemption (and what a day that will be if so!)

It doesn’t make sense to me one is exalted solely on the basis of receiving an ordinance and not by behaviour, especially since this ordinance has been very limited to very few having personally done it and will be given to all with the chance to accept according to our current doctrine by proxy.

Nor that someone has the chance to accept the ordinance because they have had 3000 years  or whatever since their death to be ministered to and so have repented, but someone who dies right before Christ comes doesn’t have enough time for their heart to be changed by the deadline date and so get tossed to the TK forever when they made the same choices in their mortal life (or the equivalent ones).

If the proxy ceremony is as effective as the live one as we claim it is if accepted, then everyone has the opportunity to accept the ordinance and endure the buffetings of Satan and then receive their exaltation.

Edited March 30, 2024 by Calm