Abstain from all appearance of evil.

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, bearhoof said:

I'm interested in stories about counsel you received (or gave to others) about avoiding the appearance of evil. For example, as a child my spouse was told by her mother not to drink from a mug lest someone think she was drinking coffee. In a recent EQ discussion one man stated that he only drank water when attending work-related social gatherings, another man one-upped him by claiming that he doesn't drink anything at all when attending these gatherings. What were you counseled to do to "avoid the appearance of evil?"

I think these people need to lighten up! I am not sad I've changed my mindset I had when an active full on believer to a more nuanced believer now. These things wouldn't even cross my mind now. I do have an experience to share though. My dad was a coffee drinker my whole life. And in order for him to go to the temple when I got married to see the ceremony is if he switched to decaf coffee, he was an endowed member (sealed to my mother). And I remember a conversation with someone, now I can't remember who, about the appearance of evil when drinking out of a coffee cup. Brain is quite fuzzy on this, but the conversation surrounded the appearance of evil thing. 

Edited March 13 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, ksfisher said:

You really like to bash Utah, don't you.

Well, if the bash is true......

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My friend used to brag about her “I only drink milk in public” policy.  I found her to be pompous. 

The Dude appeared to only drink milk in public:

(of course, there's also vodka and kahlua in there, but it kinda looks like milk, right?  )

[Peacefully]

52 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

The Dude appeared to only drink milk in public:

(of course, there's also vodka and kahlua in there, but it kinda looks like milk, right?  )

There is always Bailey’s Irish Cream. It looks kind of like chocolate milk, lol. 

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Long ago when I was a waiter in college, a couple of women asked me to serve them wine in mugs. It was lunch time and they didn’t want people seeing them day drink. 

Does this count? 😁

The two ladies who ran the convenience store where I grew up would walk around all day drinking from coffee mugs that were filled with wine.  They fooled no one, and no one really cared. 

[sunstoned]

52 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

There is always Bailey’s Irish Cream. It looks kind of like chocolate milk, lol. 

On my partner's side of the family, they have a family drink called house coffee.  It is coffee with a liberal amount of Irish Cream.

[Peacefully]

Deleted

Edited March 13 by Peacefully

[Kenngo1969]

Feel free to ignore my [perhaps irrelevant] contribution.  I don't hang out a lot where something I do might be misconstrued, and [(s)imply by default], I don't hang out with many people who are likely to misconstrue something I do.  (Perhaps I should be more ashamed of that than I am, but that's another subject for another day.)

I'm embarrassed to admit that, for the first time in my life [given my rapidly-advancing age], I'm endeavoring, over time and from start to finish, to stand in as proxy for all of a [deceased, of course] relative's Temple ordinances.  I'm not sure I'm close enough to anyone to get an "I'm disappointed that you [a Latter-day Saint] would do such a thing" speech from anyone outside my family.  (Incidentally, in addition to serving as proxy for my own relative, I got a chance to "knock [at least some of] the rust off" of the Priesthood that I hold and to officiate in a couple of the ordinances my mom did for one of our ancestors.  (The "professionals" actually let a "rank amateur" do something that, usually, is their province.  Now, that was cool ... especially since [and again, I'm ashamed to admit this], I don't remember the last time I performed any ordinances ... I need to work on that.)

The last time I remember being cognizant, explicitly, of how someone might construe any example I might set (good or bad) by something I might do (or not) as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was when my parents and I accompanied a tour group to Spain.  A couple of times, we did have the "Where are you from?", "We're from Utah," "Oh, are you Mormon [sic]?" conversation.  A couple of times, aspects of our faith may have come up in conversation, but we didn't really press the issue, and perhaps I wasn't as "bold" as I should have been ( "Would you like to know more?!" ).

I'm not setting myself up as any kind of an example [except a poor one] in saying this, but the more concerted effort at Temple attendance that the start-to-finish ordinance chain has spurred has caused me to reflect more on my own covenants and on how seriously I take them, on what more I might be able to do to show that I do take them seriously, on how aware my "spirit relative" might be about my efforts on his behalf, on how he might feel about those efforts, on, as a result of those efforts, how any "reunion" between us might be, and so on.

I know, for myself, that my increased time in the Temple lately has led me to the conclusion I have spent entirely too much time caught up in "the thick of the really thin things" here in mortality.  I'd forgotten to "not sweat the small stuff"; and I'd forgotten that, here in mortality, it's all "small stuff."  That having been said, do a lot of very important things happen here in mortality?  Sure.  Do I rue the fact that some of those important things haven't happened to me ... yet?  I don't know how any mortal who finds himself in a circumstance that's similar to mine couldn't feel that way. But I know that, ultimately (Ay, there's the rub! ), "No blessing will be withheld."

One thing I have realized (and again, it's not because I'm perfect, or anywhere near it: Far from it) is that I don't want to be sitting in the Temple wishing that I were the kind of person who is better prepared for the experience: Already, I want to be the kind of person who ... whatever faults, flaws, and failings he has (and, surely, those are legion) notwithstanding, already is the kind of person who is well-prepared for the experience.

Perhaps ultimately, that's what "avoiding even the mere appearance of evil," "not trying to maintain a Summer cottage in Babylon and a home in Zion the rest of the year," being "in the world but not of the world," and so on, are really all about.  Just food for thought, and just my meager $0.02, actual value, as always, much less.

Edited March 13 by Kenngo1969

[Doctor Steuss]

Many moons ago, I was on a youth trip (I think it was a Priests trip).  One evening, the leaders gathered us all together to give us a lecture on avoiding the appearance of evil.  Apparently, one of us kids (who was inactive as far as church attendance went, but would attend events) had been chewing on the remains of a gutted pen, and a leader thought they were smoking.

After a good 10 minutes of warning us about the appearance of evil, the kid who had been accosted with the false accusation of smoking raised his hand.  He said something along the lines of "It seems to me, a more important lesson here is the dangers of judging others."

From the mouths of babes, and all that jazz.

From there on out, it made me realize just how much avoiding the appearance of evil had been reframed in many religious traditions to not be about staying as far away from sin as possible, lest you be tempted; but, instead into basically protecting others from their inability to refrain from judging others.  No longer "if your right eye offends you" but instead "if your right eye has done nothing wrong but offends someone else..."

[Maestrophil]

My grandpa told me not to ever order hot chocolate at a restaurant because it would be in the same mug as coffee and people would not know that I wasn't drinking coffee.  I always thought it was dumb - if I am drinking water in a glass, could that be vodka?  

[ksfisher]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, if the bash is true......

Seems kind of ironic though, in a post about not judging.

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, ksfisher said:

You really like to bash Utah, don't you.

Lived in SLC for one year and was not a happy camper.

I was looking for Zion, and all I saw was contention between "members" and "nonmembers", as us shown right here in this thread.

"Don't let anyone think you are 'one of THOSE'."

Guess what? 

"THOSE" are the ones you should be WANTING to see in sacrament meeting, of all races/colors, wearing jeans and tattoos, and women in pants, or skirts a little too short, or with shoulders exposed.

Who was Jesus looking for?

The classiest wearing their Sunday Best, and putting down those who "don't fit"?

Heck yeah, I bash LDS Utahns with those attitudes.

Drinking out of the wrong cup?

Unbelievable.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Can you imagine:

"Hey Jesus, stop hanging out with IRS agents, prostitutes, drunkards... people might get the wrong idea about you."

??

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Seems kind of ironic though, in a post about not judging.

Good point, and I admit it.  I will try to repent, wwJd... What Would Jesus Do?

But even Jesus turned over a few tables of simple people just trying to make a living, though ordinarily such behavior is wrong.

Ok folks, I've said my piece/peace.

Toodle-loo on this one!  Love y'all 👍

Even I make mistakes!  I don't shine my shoes for Sacrament either!

Ain't repentance great? 😉

 

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

My grandpa told me not to ever order hot chocolate at a restaurant because it would be in the same mug as coffee and people would not know that I wasn't drinking coffee.  I always thought it was dumb - if I am drinking water in a glass, could that be vodka?  

About 25 yrs ago my no-longer-active youngest brother and his then wife invited my active wife and I to Starbucks to chill for awhile. We both struggled with the notion that we would be seen in Starbucks even if we weren't drinking coffee! Good grief! I know, I know... We went anyway and the visit was enjoyable. My mistake was that I had ordered a strawberry creme frappuccino which then led to a ~2-3 yrs long quasi-addiction to the drink! I stopped because they changed up the ingredients and I tired of paying 4+ dollars for it. Needless-to-say, I quickly got over my reluctance to been seen at Starbucks. ; )  

[ksfisher]

53 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Lived in SLC for one year and was not a happy camper.

I was looking for Zion, and all I saw was contention between "members" and "nonmembers", as us shown right here in this thread.

"Don't let anyone think you are 'one of THOSE'."

Guess what? 

"THOSE" are the ones you should be WANTING to see in sacrament meeting, of all races/colors, wearing jeans and tattoos, and women in pants, or skirts a little too short, or with shoulders exposed.

Who was Jesus looking for?

The classiest wearing their Sunday Best, and putting down those who "don't fit"?

Heck yeah, I bash LDS Utahns with those attitudes.

Drinking out of the wrong cup?

Unbelievable.

 

I've lived in Salt Lake all my life and I don't really see any conflict between members of the church and those who aren't.  But I don't really go looking for it either.  However, there are stupid people everywhere (both members of the church and nonmembers, both in Utah and outside) and I'm sure if I wanted to find one of them I could.

I have visited lots of places and it seems to me that people are pretty much the same wherever I go.  Most people are really nice, both members of the church and nonmembers, both in Utah and elsewhere.

Labels are dangerous things.  Drawing an imaginary line around an area on a map and labeling people inside that as this or that does a disservice to everyone.

Edited March 13 by ksfisher

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Many moons ago, I was on a youth trip (I think it was a Priests trip).  One evening, the leaders gathered us all together to give us a lecture on avoiding the appearance of evil.  Apparently, one of us kids (who was inactive as far as church attendance went, but would attend events) had been chewing on the remains of a gutted pen, and a leader thought they were smoking.

After a good 10 minutes of warning us about the appearance of evil, the kid who had been accosted with the false accusation of smoking raised his hand.  He said something along the lines of "It seems to me, a more important lesson here is the dangers of judging others."

From the mouths of babes, and all that jazz.

From there on out, it made me realize just how much avoiding the appearance of evil had been reframed in many religious traditions to not be about staying as far away from sin as possible, lest you be tempted; but, instead into basically protecting others from their inability to refrain from judging others.  No longer "if your right eye offends you" but instead "if your right eye has done nothing wrong but offends someone else..."

In my mind's eye I remember a talk somewhere with someone that saw another member down the hall in an office building with a white pen in their mouth from far off and they thought that they were smoking, has someone else heard this talk? But did think of another occasion, that may or may not be up this alley, it was when my husband was playing in a stake baseball tournament (do they still do this?) and he was chewing on sunflower seeds. Well the referee stopped the game for a moment and walked up to my husband and asked if he was chewing tobacco. Luckily he was not.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Seems kind of ironic though, in a post about not judging.

blink emoji

[Rock_N_Roll]

I had a neighbor who forbid his kids from drinking root beer from a glass bottle lest someone think they were drinking beer. I guess they didn’t realize beer comes in cans as well.

The issue I see with most of these examples is that drinking alcohol, coffee, or tea is not evil! We covenant to not drink these things when we are baptized, but it’s not “evil” if we do.

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I guess I've been weighed, measured, and found wanting.

Hey, haven't we all!

I didn't mean to make you feel that way mi amigo, I thought I was just making a semi- logical argument against another semi-logical and cohesive argument.

Didn't see it as "personal"in any way.

You know me, I just argue against positions, not people! 

[mfbukowski]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

In my mind's eye I remember a talk somewhere with someone that saw another member down the hall in an office building with a white pen in their mouth from far off and they thought that they were smoking, has someone else heard this talk?

I gotta comment on this!

LA vs SL.

I actually bought a pencil that is round and white, with a brown eraser and is DESIGNED to look like a cigarette....

I love to use it at church ... 

https://images.app.goo.gl/aPJUa38x5mwozeBz7

Edited March 13 by mfbukowski

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I had a neighbor who forbid his kids from drinking root beer from a glass bottle lest someone think they were drinking beer. I guess they didn’t realize beer comes in cans as well.

The issue I see with most of these examples is that drinking alcohol, coffee, or tea is not evil! We covenant to not drink these things when we are baptized, but it’s not “evil” if we do.

👍The prohibition is for our temporal salvation, and so our minds are clear to receive revelation - thus why obedience is prerequisite for temple attendance.

[Tacenda]

47 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Good point, and I admit it.  I will try to repent, wwJd... What Would Jesus Do?

But even Jesus turned over a few tables of simple people just trying to make a living, though ordinarily such behavior is wrong.

Ok folks, I've said my piece/peace.

Toodle-loo on this one!  Love y'all 👍

Even I make mistakes!  I don't shine my shoes for Sacrament either!

Ain't repentance great? 😉

 

No, in this case you have a very good point. Like you say, you live out of the morridor (Mormon corridor) and it's unheard of there, this behavior. I think many general conference talks have not totally centered on this particular behavior but have brought up how we judge or treat our non LDS members. I believe they had morridor in mind, just my opinion from my experience of living here for my entire life and hearing from those non LDS members that move here and their heartbreaking experiences. 

I belong to a FB group for those that grew up in the Bountiful Utah area, and they have had topics about the problem with so many comments of how the outsiders are treated by their LDS neighbors as far as if they allow their children to play with non members etc. If possible I might c/p some and show them here for proof. But I'm sure many that are from Utah on this board already know the sad truth.  But this may be different from the appearance of evil, but feels the same in my own way of thinking. 

[Doctor Steuss]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

In my mind's eye I remember a talk somewhere with someone that saw another member down the hall in an office building with a white pen in their mouth from far off and they thought that they were smoking, has someone else heard this talk? [...]

It sounds familiar, but it might just be a Mandella effect (I seem to be particularly susceptible to the rascally thing... in particular with things LDS).

[Doctor Steuss]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

But even Jesus turned over a few tables of simple people just trying to make a living, though ordinarily such behavior is wrong.

Just a little note on this story, and why (like the poor unfortunate cursed fig that wasn't even in season that bookends it) it is likely allegorical and didn't actually happen.  The temple guard during this period didn't mess about.  This type of event, had it happened, would have resulted in Jesus' immediate arrest (or worse).  All it took was a Roman guard giving a southern salute once in the outer area for a riot that ended in thousands dead.

You didn't mess around on temple grounds, regardless of who you were, unless you wanted to have a very uncivil and swift meeting with some zealous Levites, or Sanhedrin temple guards.