Nephi as an Electric Catfish

[firepatch36]

I always found the story of Nephi shocking his brothers during the building of the ship a little weird (1 Nephi 17: 53-4). Listening to a podcast on ancient Egypt, it mentioned electric catfish that live in the Nile. The shock the fish gives isn't enough to kill a man, but it is strong. National Geographic had an article on how catfish were viewed by the ancient Egyptians:

Quote

 

The upside-down catfish (Synodontis batensoda)... Amulets of these creatures have been found throughout Old and Middle Kingdom sites in Egypt. These objects, it was believed, prevented drowning and were worn as necklaces or as hair ornaments. 

....

Many species of catfish live in the Nile... Another type of catfish, Malapterurus electricus, the electric catfish, was, very literally, a source of shock and awe to Egyptians: Its maximum charge of 350 volts can stun prey and deter predators, and deliver a nonlethal but painful shock to humans. Its representation on Old Kingdom reliefs of fishermen are the world’s earliest known depictions of these creatures.

The catfish’s ability to navigate the murky bottom of the Nile seemed to give it magical qualities. The Egyptians believed that the catfish could guide the solar bark that bore the sun disc through the darkness of the underworld. Since the underworld was conceived of as a watery realm, the catfish could continue to protect people after death as well as in life.

 

There are different kinds of catfish in the Nile, but they were viewed as protection from drowning and having magical properties. Beyond static electricity or getting hit by lightening, the only real shock you could get anciently would be from an electric animal, like the catfish.  

In the story of Nephi, would the shock have made Laman and Lemuel see parallels between Nephi and the catfish; that is be able to save them from drowning and be able to navigate unknown waters? Thinking this way gives the story depth and reason to me. Does anyone know anything more about catfish in ancient Egypt/Israel?

 

 

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

Was hoping this would be an alternate take on the Book of Mormon arguing the Nephites were actually fish.

[Pyreaux]

Interesting to wonder whether Egyptian educated Israelites such as Nephi understood what the concept of a "shock" is. I for one, don't underestimate past people, and read about the Baghdad Battery, and assorted theories that the Ark of the Covenant construction could have been like that of a Leyden Jar which Moses may have gleaned from his Egyptian education.

But this Electric catfish (Malapteruridae) is very interesting. apparently was well known to the ancient Egyptians. The Egyptians reputedly used the electric shock from them when treating arthritis. Whether I think Nephi was part electric catfish or whether the shock was a boon for his brothers, I can't say I do. I think the catfish may have inspired Nephi with the request of God, that God made the shock, I presume it was simply unplesent. I'm not sure if there were any practical or mystical benefits.

Edited February 4, 2024 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

4 hours ago, firepatch36 said:

I always found the story of Nephi shocking his brothers during the building of the ship a little weird (1 Nephi 17: 53-4). Listening to a podcast on ancient Egypt, it mentioned electric catfish that live in the Nile. The shock the fish gives isn't enough to kill a man, but it is strong. National Geographic had an article on how catfish were viewed by the ancient Egyptians:

There are different kinds of catfish in the Nile, but they were viewed as protection from drowning and having magical properties. Beyond static electricity or getting hit by lightening, the only real shock you could get anciently would be from an electric animal, like the catfish.  

In the story of Nephi, would the shock have made Laman and Lemuel see parallels between Nephi and the catfish; that is be able to save them from drowning and be able to navigate unknown waters? Thinking this way gives the story depth and reason to me. Does anyone know anything more about catfish in ancient Egypt/Israel?

 

 

 

 

 

Not me, but there is plenty to be found in some reliable internet sources concerning the each of the types mentioned in the article you linked.

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Was hoping this would be an alternate take on the Book of Mormon arguing the Nephites were actually fish.

I was hoping to rank it up there with the earwax theory recently posted.

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I was hoping to rank it up there with the earwax theory recently posted.

Okay, that made me laugh.

[sunstoned]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Was hoping this would be an alternate take on the Book of Mormon arguing the Nephites were actually fish.

Actually, if this could be extended to include the Jaradites, it would lend credence to their trans-ocean crossing.

[ksfisher]

“I will shock them, saith the Lord” v53

“the Lord did shake them” v54

“the power of the Lord that has shaken us” v55

The wording is inconsistent here.  Shock in verse 53 turns into shake in the next two verses.  This has led some commentators, including Royal Skousen I believe, to theorize that shock in 53 is actually a copying error and that the word should be shake.

 

[webbles]

14 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

“I will shock them, saith the Lord” v53

“the Lord did shake them” v54

“the power of the Lord that has shaken us” v55

The wording is inconsistent here.  Shock in verse 53 turns into shake in the next two verses.  This has led some commentators, including Royal Skousen I believe, to theorize that shock in 53 is actually a copying error and that the word should be shake.

 

Not a copying error.  We have the original manuscript for that page - https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/original-manuscript-of-the-book-of-mormon-circa-12-april-1828-circa-1-july-1829/32.  Skousen proposes that it was a misheard mistake.  From page 378 of his textual analysis book:

Quote

There is a close phonetic similarity between shock and shake.  Oliver Cowdery apparently misheard the first occurrence of the verb shake; he may have even expected shock over shake.  In any event, he heard the next two occurrences of the verb correctly.  (It is highly unlikely that the first shock is correct and that Oliver somehow misheard two following cases of shock as shake.)

He also mentions that shock is not used anywhere else in the Book of Mormon while shake is used numerous times.

[ksfisher]

48 minutes ago, webbles said:

Not a copying error.  We have the original manuscript for that page - https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/original-manuscript-of-the-book-of-mormon-circa-12-april-1828-circa-1-july-1829/32.  Skousen proposes that it was a misheard mistake. 

Thank you for the correction.  I was going off of faulty memory.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, ksfisher said:

“I will shock them, saith the Lord” v53

“the Lord did shake them” v54

“the power of the Lord that has shaken us” v55

The wording is inconsistent here.  Shock in verse 53 turns into shake in the next two verses.  This has led some commentators, including Royal Skousen I believe, to theorize that shock in 53 is actually a copying error and that the word should be shake.

 

Or, they didn't know the correct tense for "shock" -- "shoke"? :"shoken"? meh, "shake" it is.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Thank you for the correction.  I was going off of faulty memory.

I do like the imagery of Laban getting shaken over shocked:

[InCognitus]

Apparently Nephi has a good business going now based on his shocking personality:

[The Nehor]

I prefer existential shocks.

 

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, ksfisher said:

“I will shock them, saith the Lord” v53

“the Lord did shake them” v54

“the power of the Lord that has shaken us” v55

The wording is inconsistent here.  Shock in verse 53 turns into shake in the next two verses.  This has led some commentators, including Royal Skousen I believe, to theorize that shock in 53 is actually a copying error and that the word should be shake.

 

You're a fisher -- I think you should recuse yourself when it comes to discussions of electric fish.

Now, if we were talking about Phish, you may pontificate away. @pogi, did you get tickets for Phish at the Sphere? Did you see that Dead and Company are doing like 18 dates there? I'm going to wait to see how the Phish shows are before committing to Dead and Co. I'm wondering how the Sphere and the jamband scene are going to work together. I like to wander around and dance here and there when I'm at a show, and I don't see how that might work at the Sphere. For one, they don't appear to allow it, and for two, those balconies look awfully steep. Some spun out wookie is going to tumble off the ledge.

(sorry to hijack the thread and post for a second)

[pogi]

46 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

You're a fisher -- I think you should recuse yourself when it comes to discussions of electric fish.

Now, if we were talking about Phish, you may pontificate away. @pogi, did you get tickets for Phish at the Sphere? Did you see that Dead and Company are doing like 18 dates there? I'm going to wait to see how the Phish shows are before committing to Dead and Co. I'm wondering how the Sphere and the jamband scene are going to work together. I like to wander around and dance here and there when I'm at a show, and I don't see how that might work at the Sphere. For one, they don't appear to allow it, and for two, those balconies look awfully steep. Some spun out wookie is going to tumble off the ledge.

(sorry to hijack the thread and post for a second)

I put in for 3 tickets but ended up backing out after all of my regular concert buddies couldn't make it work, and my wife doesn't like Phish    

Edited February 5, 2024 by pogi

[Calm]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

Or, they didn't know the correct tense for "shock" -- "shoke"? :"shoken"? meh, "shake" it is.

If they used it once (or rather the appropriate parallel for it in whatever language the plates were in, that doesn’t seem to be the issue.

Edited February 6, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

You're a fisher -- I think you should recuse yourself when it comes to discussions of electric fish.

Now, if we were talking about Phish, you may pontificate away. @pogi, did you get tickets for Phish at the Sphere? Did you see that Dead and Company are doing like 18 dates there? I'm going to wait to see how the Phish shows are before committing to Dead and Co. I'm wondering how the Sphere and the jamband scene are going to work together. I like to wander around and dance here and there when I'm at a show, and I don't see how that might work at the Sphere. For one, they don't appear to allow it, and for two, those balconies look awfully steep. Some spun out wookie is going to tumble off the ledge.

(sorry to hijack the thread and post for a second)

Dancing seems an appropriate topic in a thread about both shaking and shock.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

If they used it once (or rather the appropriate parallel for it in whatever language the plates were in, that doesn’t seem to be the issue.

Come to think of it. the plates themselves are a great conductor of electricity.!

[Stargazer]

Shock and shake derive from the same root in Proto-Germanic & Proto-Indo-European. They could be used somewhat interchangeably at times in the past. It's only recently that shock has come to be principally associated with the effects of contact with electricity, because electricity is a recent thing.

We still use them interchangeably today. One can be shocked at some thing, when another might be shaken at the same thing. 

I like the idea of Nephi as an electric fish: it shocks me! And I am shaken at the insight.

What did the word refer to in the plates themselves? We don't know. We know only what English word was substituted, and the idea that Oliver misheard it in the first case, but not the subsequent cases is completely valid, I feel. They are close enough in origin to be used similarly, and remember that electric shocks had not yet become commonplace in 1830.