Why Does God Stay His Hand

[Teancum]

On 11/27/2023 at 6:35 PM, Calm said:

Do you remove all the suffering of your children you possibly can though?

If my children were starving, did not have a home, were in danger of being harmed in other ways say from a flood or earthquake or fire, and I had the means to help them avoid these things I would. If I had the means to feed my children who were starving and I did not I would be an immoral parent. If I let them die of starvation when I had the means I would be a monster.

[Teancum]

On 11/27/2023 at 7:55 PM, bluebell said:

The only way I can reconcile it is to believe that it's not actually unfair or unbalanced, it just appears like it is from our incredibly limited and ignorant point of view.

Or maybe it is unfair and unbalanced and even cruel and you tell yourself in order to assuage the cognitive dissonance the issues of evil and suffering causes a believer.  

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Or maybe it is unfair and unbalanced and even cruel and you tell yourself in order to assuage the cognitive dissonance the issues of evil and suffering causes a believer.  

If believing that makes your life better than go for it.

[MiserereNobis]

31 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Will I be better off if I believe in hobbits and Gandalf the Wizard?  I think Gandalf the  Wizard had some pretty great things to say.

Well, Gandalf was one of the Istari and was therefore a Maia and therefore an Ainu, one of the first beings created by Iluvatar before the world was made.

In other words, he was an angel created by God.

So yeah, believe in him  

[tagriffy]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:19 PM, Amulek said:

Because it's not possible for God to end all hunger and sickness without simultaneously preventing an even greater good - namely, the soul making theodicy we all agreed to embark on when we counseled together before the world was created.

 

Why not?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Will I be better off if I believe in hobbits and Gandalf the Wizard? 

If it brings you comfort, peace, hope, happiness...then yes.   If it doesn't bring anything good, or you can't find anyway to even hope in them...no. 

I didn't say "believe in", I said "hope".  There is a difference. 

Hope in what brings well-being for you personally.  Why not?  If the fruits are good, why toss them aside?

[CV75]

Two moral persons, and even a Moral God and a moral person, may act differently in the same circumstances, situations and events simply because they perceive and experience, or know, the same space-time subjectively.

[Peacefully]

I often think about why God doesn’t always intervene, especially when children are suffering. One thing I’ve come up with is the idea that God has done all of this before, and through trial and error, he has found the best way for humanity to grow and progress through the ages is for Him to intervene as little as possible. He knows the amazing things that are waiting for us, and our time here is short compared to eternity, so He can bear to see us suffer for a “short” time because it is the only way. Plus, I also think he expects us to do the work of alleviating suffering wherever we can. 

[Vanguard]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

If my children were starving, did not have a home, were in danger of being harmed in other ways say from a flood or earthquake or fire, and I had the means to help them avoid these things I would. If I had the means to feed my children who were starving and I did not I would be an immoral parent. If I let them die of starvation when I had the means I would be a monster.

Do you have an idea about when your intervention were enough? In other words, would you be about the business of literally stopping ALL suffering? And if not, why not?

[Calm]

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

If my children were starving, did not have a home, were in danger of being harmed in other ways say from a flood or earthquake or fire, and I had the means to help them avoid these things I would. If I had the means to feed my children who were starving and I did not I would be an immoral parent. If I let them die of starvation when I had the means I would be a monster.

I very much understand why this topic is one of the most common for loss of faith. 

My question to Pogi was not a rhetorical one though, but sincere as I wonder a lot on how parents should be making decisions for their children’s future when we can know little about what is to come (which is quite different from what we believe God’s position is).  As parents we learn (or should learn imo) it is a balancing act between protection of our children and enduring pain and even risk taking for future payoffs.  There are parents who will try anything in order for their child to have a chance at life, even when the cost to the child is have a horrible life in the near future and others who are comfortable with accepting what is given as a gift that is enough for them and their child and choose peace and release from pain in the present over a future. My own choices have not had to be that extreme, but they have been quite major and while I don’t wallow in second guessing, it would be really nice to know for the most part I got it right and my daughter isn’t suffering more now because I didn’t want her to suffer so much in the past.  I choose to trust her own assessment of where she was and what she could do even though I know youth don’t always have a realistic view of themselves because I had parents who while very caring and who tried to listen at times, were certain they knew best and push me in ways that were highly counterproductive. But worse, I ended up not trusting myself and so I didn’t question doctors and I didn’t push them to find out what was really wrong with me and as a result my disorder is much more severe that it naturally would be. I wanted to be sure that my daughter could protect herself because she had faith in herself…but perhaps there were skills she didn’t develop that would do a better job because I protected her when I should have pushed her and allowed suffering, including for some trivial things not because they were important, but so she could learn she could survive and flourish even when in emotional or physical pain at times. 
 

I do project onto God the issue of evil in this world and how parents make choices over short term pain for longterm payoff and how somethings look trivial or worse, look wrong, but in the end are actually beneficial when we know enough (such as massive surgeries in infants).

Now it seems completely illogical that starvation or rape and torture could in some way be beneficial and I am not claiming they are, but we do learn at times through suffering even if only how to be more compassionate to others who suffer or a desire to protect others, so I consider there may be some sort of eternal learning that can take place even in the face of massive suffering or suffering caused by malice.  And maybe it only makes no sense and seems a horror because we lack knowledge, just as someone from 1000 years ago might look on surgery on infants and them being hooked up to machines with their eyes taped shut as torture rather than medical intervention. 
 

I am not claiming this is Truth, but just saying it might be a possibility and that I don’t see how we could prove it wrong objectively.
 

We can make subjective decisions and logical assumptions that someone as powerful as God would obviously know another way and that even if eternally speaking it is no more than ripping off a bandaid and that healing means the soul will be as if we never suffered, because it is so overwhelmingly horrible to experience now that such suffering can’t be justified as necessary for future benefit.  However, I think that falls into the same category as debating whether a parent’s hope for a future for their child justifies the suffering they will allow their child to suffer in the here and now.  It may also be a reaction that is created by our own cultural programming and not as inherently moral as we think it is.  There were a lot of pretty nasty (in our view, but hallowed and cool in theirs) coming of age ceremonies in other cultures over the eons. A culture like that may see it as a nobrainer that suffering in horrible ways if it leads to good results is of excellent value even if there are easier, if less effective or perhaps more time/resource consuming ways. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Calm

[Amulek]

15 hours ago, Teancum said:

How is starving a child to death a soul making theodicy?  How about a child dying from a horribly painful disease. Or a small child being kidnapped, raped and murdered? How doe this build or make a soul better?  Why are so many born into poverty.  Why are you and  I so better off materially than so much of the rest of the world?  How does that build a soul?  Is that fair?  Is it random? 

This is my busiest time of year, so I don't have time to really get into the weeds on this. If you are so inclined, I would suggest starting with John Hick's Evil and the God of Love. Hick argues that, in order for human free will to be significant and nontrivial, it must have a wide range of choices, which makes possible great moral and spiritual achievement as well as utterly sinister and destructive behavior. I think this pairs rather well with the LDS paradigm and what we understand about the plan of salvation. YMMV.

 

[Amulek]

14 hours ago, tagriffy said:

Why not?

For the same reason he can't create a seven sided isosceles triangle.

 

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

If believing that makes your life better than go for it.

It is not a point for me it is a point for you to consider. Whether you choose to ponder that your simple faith based answer really works does not impact my life at all. Though I can tell you from experience, critically thinking about such things can be difficult and painful.  Up to you though.

I am not trying to be snarky in this response or the previous one to your comment.  If it is coming across that way I am sorry.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Teancum

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Well, Gandalf was one of the Istari and was therefore a Maia and therefore an Ainu, one of the first beings created by Iluvatar before the world was made.

In other words, he was an angel created by God.

So yeah, believe in him  

Another Tolkien fan here I see. 😀

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

It is not a point for me it is a point for you to consider. Whether you choose to ponder that your simple faith based answer really works does not impact my life at all. Though I can tell you from experience, critically thinking about such things can be difficult and painful.  Up to you though.

I am not trying to be snarky in this response or the previous one to your comment.  If it is coming across that way I am sorry.

You don’t come across snarky, but anytime anyone puts themselves in the “thinking critically” category while putting everyone who disagrees with them in the “hasn’t thought critically or they would agree with me” category, I disengaged from the conversation. It’s not going to go anywhere useful.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

I very much understand why this topic is one of the most common for loss of faith. 

My question to Pogi was not a rhetorical one though, but sincere as I wonder a lot on how parents should be making decisions for their children’s future when we can know little about what is to come (which is quite different from what we believe God’s position is).  As parents we learn (or should learn imo) it is a balancing act between protection of our children and enduring pain and even risk taking for future payoffs.  There are parents who will try anything in order for their child to have a chance at life, even when the cost to the child is have a horrible life in the near future and others who are comfortable with accepting what is given as a gift that is enough for them and their child and choose peace and release from pain in the present over a future. My own choices have not had to be that extreme, but they have been quite major and while I don’t wallow in second guessing, it would be really nice to know for the most part I got it right and my daughter isn’t suffering more now because I didn’t want her to suffer so much in the past.  I choose to trust her own assessment of where she was and what she could do even though I know youth don’t always have a realistic view of themselves because I had parents who while very caring and who tried to listen at times, were certain they knew best and push me in ways that were highly counterproductive. But worse, I ended up not trusting myself and so I didn’t question doctors and I didn’t push them to find out what was really wrong with me and as a result my disorder is much more severe that it naturally would be. I wanted to be sure that my daughter could protect herself because she had faith in herself…but perhaps there were skills she didn’t develop that would do a better job because I protected her when I should have pushed her and allowed suffering, including for some trivial things not because they were important, but so she could learn she could survive and flourish even when in emotional or physical pain at times. 
 

I do project onto God the issue of evil in this world and how parents make choices over short term pain for longterm payoff and how somethings look trivial or worse, look wrong, but in the end are actually beneficial when we know enough (such as massive surgeries in infants).

Now it seems completely illogical that starvation or rape and torture could in some way be beneficial and I am not claiming they are, but we do learn at times through suffering even if only how to be more compassionate to others who suffer or a desire to protect others, so I consider there may be some sort of eternal learning that can take place even in the face of massive suffering or suffering caused by malice.  And maybe it only makes no sense and seems a horror because we lack knowledge, just as someone from 1000 years ago might look on surgery on infants and them being hooked up to machines with their eyes taped shut as torture rather than medical intervention. 
 

I am not claiming this is Truth, but just saying it might be a possibility and that I don’t see how we could prove it wrong objectively.
 

We can make subjective decisions and logical assumptions that someone as powerful as God would obviously know another way and that even if eternally speaking it is no more than ripping off a bandaid and that healing means the soul will be as if we never suffered, because it is so overwhelmingly horrible to experience now that such suffering can’t be justified as necessary for future benefit.  However, I think that falls into the same category as debating whether a parent’s hope for a future for their child justifies the suffering they will allow their child to suffer in the here and now.  It may also be a reaction that is created by our own cultural programming and not as inherently moral as we think it is.  There were a lot of pretty nasty (in our view, but hallowed and cool in theirs) coming of age ceremonies in other cultures over the eons. A culture like that may see it as a nobrainer that suffering in horrible ways if it leads to good results is of excellent value even if there are easier, if less effective or perhaps more time/resource consuming ways. 

I think the issue of theodicy is nonsensical. God cannot be blamed for the existence of evil and suffering (or vindicated for permitting these to go on) any more than He can be commended for the existence of goodness and blessing (or punished for letting these go on): who is in any position to do that?

All we can do is submit to what is going on, which includes becoming as a child and cultivating those attributes that surpass any condition: meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing, etc. (Mosiah 3:19). This is where the benefit of good and evil lie. This is what He did to get to where He is. We do all we can with what we have, given what we see, and so does God who is not limited to this life alone, as we are.

From this perspective, the honored and nurtured child is no better off than the raped and tortured one if he does not mourn with that child (in the Lord), and the abused child is no better off than the other if he does not rejoice in the protected child (in the Lord). This divine level of empathy comes by the grace of Christ and is multiplied as we relate with every other child of God, which requires a good deal of interaction and practice after this life, as essential as this life is for starting that process. This resulting unity makes those who are willing gods.

Edited November 30, 2023 by CV75

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

It is not a point for me it is a point for you to consider. Whether you choose to ponder that your simple faith based answer really works does not impact my life at all. Though I can tell you from experience, critically thinking about such things can be difficult and painful.  Up to you though.

I am not trying to be snarky in this response or the previous one to your comment.  If it is coming across that way I am sorry.

 

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You don’t come across snarky, but anytime anyone puts themselves in the “thinking critically” category while putting everyone who disagrees with them in the “hasn’t thought critically or they would agree with me” category, I disengaged from the conversation. It’s not going to go anywhere useful.

Anyone who suggests BB is not a critical thinker is not thinking. IMO. 
 

 

[pogi]

18 hours ago, Teancum said:

Why?  Why believe in an imaginary being and what good purpose comes from believing falsehoods? Will I be better off if I believe in hobbits and Gandalf the Wizard?  I think Gandalf the  Wizard had some pretty great things to say.

Another way to look at this - it is a lot like marriage, you can be right, or you can be happy   I'm joking of course, but I do so a kernel of wisdom in that. 

The point is that you can't know with certainty that God is "an imaginary being".   That gives the potential for hope. 

But where you can't know if you are right or not, why not choose to hope in something that brings happiness?  

18 hours ago, Teancum said:

I would be happy if he were real.

Not if you refuse to hope in him.

18 hours ago, Teancum said:

But believing he is real may indicate some mental imbalance on my part.  Saying he is real serves a good purpose even when he is not could also indicate mental imbalance.

How do you know he is not real?   You don't.   I think that affirming his non-existence without room for hope/doubt is problematic. 

[Calm]

On 11/29/2023 at 3:24 PM, Teancum said:

Why believe in an imaginary being and what good purpose comes from believing falsehoods?

Are there not many imaginary ideals that people believe in to the point of giving up their lives that have yielded a better life for others in the long run, like democracy and freedom for all?  Is this belief and hope not a good thing?

And is God a falsehood?  Maybe your own experience has provided you enough evidence that you believe he doesn’t exist, but others, including myself, see the evidence as more than enough to support his existence.

If one can’t prove or disprove God’s existence, there is as much room for hope in him as there is room for hope that someday those imaginary ideals won’t be so imaginary any more.  If this hope helps people endure loss and pain in order to keep struggling for a better life for themselves and others, why is this hope not a good thing?

Edited November 30, 2023 by Calm

[tagriffy]

13 hours ago, Amulek said:

For the same reason he can't create a seven sided isosceles triangle.

 

But "ending hunger and sickness" and having a "soul making theodicy" are not mutually exclusive conditions. On can have both without contradiction.

[Teancum]

On 11/29/2023 at 7:03 PM, pogi said:

If it brings you comfort, peace, hope, happiness...then yes. 

Well philosophically I understand that.  And William James would likely agree even if what one believes is not literally true.

 

On 11/29/2023 at 7:03 PM, pogi said:

 

 If it doesn't bring anything good, or you can't find anyway to even hope in them...no. 

Again yes but also no.  Mormonism told me, and other adherent, that if I did not accept the LDS gospel and its ordinances my state of happiness in eternity is not as good as one who believes and receives such things.  Most religions really don't take this laid back approach of well hey, if WHATEVER you believe works for you and makes you happy then great.n If not find something that does.

 

On 11/29/2023 at 7:03 PM, pogi said:

I didn't say "believe in", I said "hope".  There is a difference. 

I would like to know your view as to what is different.

On 11/29/2023 at 7:03 PM, pogi said:

 

Hope in what brings well-being for you personally.  Why not?  If the fruits are good, why toss them aside?

I guess at this point in my life I lean towards being more of a realist. I don't want to believe in something that is a myth or lie even if it brings me some sort of happiness, hope or peace.  Regarding the issue of suffering and evil belief in a god being that allows or even creates such suffering and evil to exist brings me more pain than hope.   I cannot worship such a cruel being.

[Teancum]

On 11/30/2023 at 5:20 AM, Calm said:

I very much understand why this topic is one of the most common for loss of faith. 

Yes it it. And I believe for good reason.

 

On 11/30/2023 at 5:20 AM, Calm said:

My question to Pogi was not a rhetorical one though, but sincere as I wonder a lot on how parents should be making decisions for their children’s future when we can know little about what is to come (which is quite different from what we believe God’s position is).

If God is truly omniscient and he knew of the horrible suffering so many would go through and still did it this way I find that creature very cruel.

I know the arguments for why God allows suffering and evil. And I think the answers from Mormonism so far are the best, but I still find them lacking.

 

On 11/30/2023 at 5:20 AM, Calm said:

 

 

 As parents we learn (or should learn imo) it is a balancing act between protection of our children and enduring pain and even risk taking for future payoffs.  There are parents who will try anything in order for their child to have a chance at life, even when the cost to the child is have a horrible life in the near future and others who are comfortable with accepting what is given as a gift that is enough for them and their child and choose peace and release from pain in the present over a future. My own choices have not had to be that extreme, but they have been quite major and while I don’t wallow in second guessing, it would be really nice to know for the most part I got it right and my daughter isn’t suffering more now because I didn’t want her to suffer so much in the past.  I choose to trust her own assessment of where she was and what she could do even though I know youth don’t always have a realistic view of themselves because I had parents who while very caring and who tried to listen at times, were certain they knew best and push me in ways that were highly counterproductive. But worse, I ended up not trusting myself and so I didn’t question doctors and I didn’t push them to find out what was really wrong with me and as a result my disorder is much more severe that it naturally would be. I wanted to be sure that my daughter could protect herself because she had faith in herself…but perhaps there were skills she didn’t develop that would do a better job because I protected her when I should have pushed her and allowed suffering, including for some trivial things not because they were important, but so she could learn she could survive and flourish even when in emotional or physical pain at times. 

I understand this.  My comments were more along the lines of significant suffering. I would not stand by idly and let any of my children, who are all adults, starve of go without housing, etc.  Or if someone was going to harm them and I could stop that I would.  

On 11/30/2023 at 5:20 AM, Calm said:

 

 

I do project onto God the issue of evil in this world and how parents make choices over short term pain for longterm payoff and how somethings look trivial or worse, look wrong, but in the end are actually beneficial when we know enough (such as massive surgeries in infants).

Now it seems completely illogical that starvation or rape and torture could in some way be beneficial and I am not claiming they are, but we do learn at times through suffering even if only how to be more compassionate to others who suffer or a desire to protect others, so I consider there may be some sort of eternal learning that can take place even in the face of massive suffering or suffering caused by malice.  And maybe it only makes no sense and seems a horror because we lack knowledge, just as someone from 1000 years ago might look on surgery on infants and them being hooked up to machines with their eyes taped shut as torture rather than medical intervention. 

I used to think similarly.  And I certainly still think many of life's struggles and challenges can school us an teach us and make us better humans.  I am a 2x cancer survivor. I have been molded and shaped by those experiences.  But I would not inflict on any of my children something like that purposefully as test to see if they will still love me and obey me.

 

On 11/30/2023 at 5:20 AM, Calm said:

 

 

I am not claiming this is Truth, but just saying it might be a possibility and that I don’t see how we could prove it wrong objectively.
 

We can make subjective decisions and logical assumptions that someone as powerful as God would obviously know another way and that even if eternally speaking it is no more than ripping off a bandaid and that healing means the soul will be as if we never suffered, because it is so overwhelmingly horrible to experience now that such suffering can’t be justified as necessary for future benefit.  However, I think that falls into the same category as debating whether a parent’s hope for a future for their child justifies the suffering they will allow their child to suffer in the here and now.  It may also be a reaction that is created by our own cultural programming and not as inherently moral as we think it is.  There were a lot of pretty nasty (in our view, but hallowed and cool in theirs) coming of age ceremonies in other cultures over the eons. A culture like that may see it as a nobrainer that suffering in horrible ways if it leads to good results is of excellent value even if there are easier, if less effective or perhaps more time/resource consuming ways. 

THanks you for your thoughtful comments.

[Teancum]

On 11/28/2023 at 2:09 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Can you imagine what God would think of us, if we had sought to alleviate her suffering by not forcing her, against her will, to suffer?  Can you imagine what her life would be like right now?  A lifetime in a wheelchair, possible lifetime bone deformities, most likely all sorts of negative mental health impacts.

But this story falls apart when you look at it from what caused her problems with her feet in the first place.  Would you have prevented that if you could have?  Would you have inflicted it on her purposefully?

[Vanguard]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But this story falls apart when you look at it from what caused her problems with her feet in the first place.  Would you have prevented that if you could have?  Would you have inflicted it on her purposefully?

Asking again. How far would you take this? Do you think literally all suffering should be taken away? And if not, why not?

[Vanguard]

On 11/29/2023 at 3:24 PM, Teancum said:

I would be happy if he were real.

But would you considering all of the issues you have with a god that allows so much suffering?