Why Does God Stay His Hand

[The Nehor]

Also if you argue that suffering leads to growth and progress if handled correctly then the more difficult moral question is why bad things happen to bad people. If it doesn’t help them what is the point?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Also if you argue that suffering leads to growth and progress if handled correctly then the more difficult moral question is why bad things happen to bad people. If it doesn’t help them what is the point?

Maybe sometimes for the same reason that bad things don’t always help “good” people?  Ineffective use of agency?

(I know that whole topic is way more nuanced and intricate and personalized than such a generalized answer suggests. I’m just trying to keep it simple since I’m on my phone)

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also if you argue that suffering leads to growth and progress if handled correctly then the more difficult moral question is why bad things happen to bad people. If it doesn’t help them what is the point?

Thinking about this some more, I don’t believe “suffering to grow” is always the reason for suffering. Sometimes I think suffering could be the result of our bad choices. Sometimes it follows wickedness. Sometimes it could be God’s chastisement. Sometimes the result of the use of someone else’s agency. Sometimes due to living in a fallen mortal world. And maybe sometimes for reasons we haven’t ever considered.

Maybe one of the problems of evil is that there are so many different possibilities for how and why it impacts us that there is no answer that works for all of them?

[teddyaware]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also if you argue that suffering leads to growth and progress if handled correctly then the more difficult moral question is why bad things happen to bad people. If it doesn’t help them what is the point?

I’m having a hard time believing you're failing to recognize one of the most important and frequently recurring themes of scripture, that God allows bad things to happen to bad people to awaken them to their own wickedness and to stir them up to repentance? You can’t honestly say you’ve forgotten this basic gospel principle… or can you?

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this  because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him. (Helaman 12)

Edited December 12, 2023 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:03 PM, pogi said:

There you go again.  You seem to be dismissing my beliefs because they are "imaginary".  Yet you can't seem to show me how your foundation of morality, meaning, and purpose is based on anything other than "imaginary" stories or myth that you tell yourself.   You are no different from me in that regard.  

THIS IS IT!

This generation cannot break out of their dualism that there is something out there which is NOT A CREATION OF MAN. AND GOD IS THE MAN IN MYTH OR REALITY AND PHILOSOPHY JOINS IT ALL AS ONE with our wonderful church.

IF you see it as I do

Scripture IS the philosophies of men!

Drop all these dualisms!

Did God make man, or did man make God?

BOTH! GOD IS MAN! Mankind are potential Gods and Godesses. And we can OVERCOME the world through Jesus Christ!

Faith is HOPE for things unseen.

And the world "as it is" is now a dark mirror of our own perceptions/ experiences, until we can see Him face to face.

How blessed we are!

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I’m having a hard time believing you're failing to recognize one of the most important and frequently recurring themes of scripture, that God allows bad things to happen to bad people to awaken them to their own wickedness and to stir them up to repentance? You can’t honestly say you’ve forgotten this basic gospel principle… or can you?

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this  because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him. (Helaman 12)

So God goes with the punishment model of parenting which doesn’t work well in creating well-adjusted people? Well, maybe it works better with a divine outlook.

*reads human history*

Wow, okay, yeah, this model seems sub-optimal.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wow, okay, yeah, this model seems sub-optimal.

Maybe, but it IS dialectical materialism too.  Action-->Reaction.

And who said it WAS "optimal"?

See, there is this story about some folks who lived a a beautiful garden until they did something suboptimal.

I think it had something to do with carbon?  Fig leaves, perhaps?

But after they figured good AND bad out, it got better.

 

 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So God goes with the punishment model of parenting which doesn’t work well in creating well-adjusted people? Well, maybe it works better with a divine outlook.

*reads human history*

Wow, okay, yeah, this model seems sub-optimal.

It's kind of the pride cycle described in the BOM though, isn't it? 

People get proud and full of themselves, start doing whatever they want thinking what they want is the standard for what they can do, then they are humbled through suffering, repent, and turn again to God?

(disclaimer:  I haven't read Teddy's post so I'm not saying I agree with it.  I'm responding only to your post).