What is the "moral" in "moral agency"?

[telnetd]

About these church teachings:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/agency-and-accountability?lang=eng

"In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show 
what choices we will make (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16). If we were forced to choose the 
right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves. Also, we 
are happier doing things when we have made our own choices".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2014/10/free-agency-or-moral-agency?lang=eng

President Packer adds, "Agency is defined in the scriptures as 'moral agency,' which 
means that we can choose between good and evil."  This God-given gift means we are 
"free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or 
to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil" 
(2 Nephi 2:27).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/51oaks?lang=eng

President Dallin H. Oaks defined it as such.  "God has given His children moral 
agency—the power to decide and to act.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/d-todd-christofferson/moral-agency/

When we use the term moral agency, then, we are appropriately emphasizing the 
accountability that is an essential part of the divine gift of agency. We are moral 
beings and agents unto ourselves, free to choose but also responsible for our 
choices.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we 
left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. 
To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain 
experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies.

Does "moral" mean something extra when added to "agency"? Is there such a thing as 
"immoral" or "unethical" agency?

Did obedience or disobedience cause the progression of Adam and Eve to begin in
their pre-mortal life and which enabled them to start their progression when they were
on earth?

[Pyreaux]

24 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Does "moral" mean something extra when added to "agency"? Is there such a thing as 
"immoral" or "unethical" agency?

Did obedience or disobedience cause the progression of Adam and Eve to begin in
their pre-mortal life and which enabled them to start their progression when they were
on earth?

"Agency" meaning we have freedom to make choices. Specifically, choices of a "moral" nature, we can make both "good and bad" choices.

Obedience in their premortal life determined their preordained time, location and purpose when they will incarnate. Our standing in these after phases in our progression seem to begin with the consequence of our past choices.

[smac97]

29 minutes ago, telnetd said:

About these church teachings:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/agency-and-accountability?lang=eng

"In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show what choices we will make (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16). If we were forced to choose the right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves. Also, we are happier doing things when we have made our own choices".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2014/10/free-agency-or-moral-agency?lang=eng

President Packer adds, "Agency is defined in the scriptures as 'moral agency,' which means that we can choose between good and evil."  This God-given gift means we are "free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil" (2 Nephi 2:27).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/51oaks?lang=eng

President Dallin H. Oaks defined it as such.  "God has given His children moral agency—the power to decide and to act.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/d-todd-christofferson/moral-agency/

When we use the term moral agency, then, we are appropriately emphasizing the accountability that is an essential part of the divine gift of agency. We are moral beings and agents unto ourselves, free to choose but also responsible for our choices.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has.  To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies.

Does "moral" mean something extra when added to "agency"?

Yes.  The former modifies the latter.

29 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Is there such a thing as "immoral" or "unethical" agency?

Certainly.  Unguided, untethered, "immoral" or "unethical" use of one's agency is well-documented.  Korihor's philosophy, for example, presupposes this type of agency:

Quote

17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime.

18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof.

See also 2 Nephi 2:27:

Quote

Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

The bolded part above reflects the exercise of "immoral" or "unethical" agency.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

31 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

"Agency" meaning we have freedom to make choices.

I would say that agency means not only the ability to make choices, but also accountability for those choices.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

About these church teachings:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/agency-and-accountability?lang=eng

"In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show 
what choices we will make (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16). If we were forced to choose the 
right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves. Also, we 
are happier doing things when we have made our own choices".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2014/10/free-agency-or-moral-agency?lang=eng

President Packer adds, "Agency is defined in the scriptures as 'moral agency,' which 
means that we can choose between good and evil."  This God-given gift means we are 
"free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or 
to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil" 
(2 Nephi 2:27).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/51oaks?lang=eng

President Dallin H. Oaks defined it as such.  "God has given His children moral 
agency—the power to decide and to act.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/d-todd-christofferson/moral-agency/

When we use the term moral agency, then, we are appropriately emphasizing the 
accountability that is an essential part of the divine gift of agency. We are moral 
beings and agents unto ourselves, free to choose but also responsible for our 
choices.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we 
left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. 
To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain 
experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies.

Does "moral" mean something extra when added to "agency"? Is there such a thing as 
"immoral" or "unethical" agency?

Did obedience or disobedience cause the progression of Adam and Eve to begin in
their pre-mortal life and which enabled them to start their progression when they were
on earth?

It’s simple. The word moral is often added to the term agency as a clarifier, to ensure it’s understood that the most critical choices we make are the ones when we choose between good and evil. When an intelligent human agent chooses between chocolate or vanilla ice cream, that choice will have little to no effect on his moral standing before God; but when that same man makes the choice between taking his first drink of liquor or obeying the word of wisdom, that choice may very well end up being the determining factor as to whether he ends up spending his time on earth as an enslaved alcoholic, or living a life of healthy, clearheaded sobriety. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by teddyaware

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Does "moral" mean something extra when added to "agency"? Is there such a thing as "immoral" or "unethical" agency?

There was a shift a while back among church leaders to prefer the phrase "moral agency" over the term "free agency," which had been used popularly for quite some time.

Moral agency is actually how it is referred to in the D&C (see, e.g., D&C 101:78). And I believe the purpose in the shift was to put greater emphasis on accountability, rather than merely the freedom to chose.

As Elder Uchtdorf once said, "You have agency, and you are free to choose. But there is actually no free agency. Agency has its price. You have to pay the consequences of your choices."

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

It’s simple. The word moral is often added to the term agency as a clarifier, to ensure it’s understood that the most critical choices we make are the ones when we choose between good and evil. When an intelligent human agent chooses between chocolate or vanilla ice cream, that choice will have little to no effect on his moral standing before God; but when that same man makes the choice between taking his first drink of liquor or obeying the word of wisdom, that choice may very well end up being the determining factor as to whether he ends up spending his time on earth as an enslaved alcoholic, or living a life of healthy, clearheaded sobriety. 

Wait. Sobriety is supposed to lead to being clearheaded and healthy? Once again I have been robbed.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

About these church teachings:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/agency-and-accountability?lang=eng

"In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show 
what choices we will make (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16). If we were forced to choose the 
right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves. Also, we 
are happier doing things when we have made our own choices".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2014/10/free-agency-or-moral-agency?lang=eng

President Packer adds, "Agency is defined in the scriptures as 'moral agency,' which 
means that we can choose between good and evil."  This God-given gift means we are 
"free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or 
to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil" 
(2 Nephi 2:27).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/51oaks?lang=eng

President Dallin H. Oaks defined it as such.  "God has given His children moral 
agency—the power to decide and to act.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/d-todd-christofferson/moral-agency/

When we use the term moral agency, then, we are appropriately emphasizing the 
accountability that is an essential part of the divine gift of agency. We are moral 
beings and agents unto ourselves, free to choose but also responsible for our 
choices.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-2-our-heavenly-family?lang=eng

Our Heavenly Father knew we could not progress beyond a certain point unless we 
left Him for a time. He wanted us to develop the godlike qualities that He has. 
To do this, we needed to leave our premortal home to be tested and to gain 
experience. Our spirits needed to be clothed with physical bodies.

Does "moral" mean something extra when added to "agency"? Is there such a thing as 
"immoral" or "unethical" agency?

Did obedience or disobedience cause the progression of Adam and Eve to begin in
their pre-mortal life and which enabled them to start their progression when they were
on earth?

“Moral” conveys the moral (eternal, sacred) implications of exercising the agency given us, while also covering both moral and immoral applications. Ethics is a separate category, as are consumer, transactional, and aesthetic, etc. choices.

Our progress in each estate is caused by our role in the personal relationship between God and us, initiated by God's love for us and by His invitation, and morally-speaking, involving consequences of the justice, mercy and grace we display in return for that which God showed us first.

[teddyaware]

47 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 

47 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Wait. Sobriety is supposed to lead to being clearheaded and healthy? Once again I have been robbed.

Words of wisdom from the one best qualified to know.

Edited November 13, 2023 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

Moral agency is to do good or evil.

But you also can go to the store any time it's open. That's plain old "agency". 😎

[Calm]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wait. Sobriety is supposed to lead to being clearheaded and healthy? Once again I have been robbed.

If only.

[filovirus]

Freedom + Choice + Consequences = Agency. Moral Agency is a qualifier directing us to God's laws. See D&C 101:78.

[Matthew Andreasen]

According to 1830ish usage, agency is primarily the ability or capacity to act, moral agency is the ability to act in matters pertaining to good and evil, and free agency is the ability to act voluntarily according to one’s own free will.  We generally use these three terms interchangeably in the Church today, but at the time the revelations/scriptures where given, they had distinct meanings.

The concept of moral agency from the early 1800s also implies that the law of God is the standard by which an action is determined to be good or evil, and that as moral agents, men and women are held accountable to God and by society for their actions.

I wrote a book called "The Agency Discussions" which looks at the concept of Agency based off of the original meaning of the word and then applies those ideas to LDS scripture.  The definition we commonly use in the Church today has more to do with the concept of "free" than it does with "agency."

[MiserereNobis]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:03 AM, teddyaware said:

but when that same man makes the choice between taking his first drink of liquor or obeying the word of wisdom, that choice may very well end up being the determining factor as to whether he ends up spending his time on earth as an enslaved alcoholic, or living a life of healthy, clearheaded sobriety. 

As I understand it, the word of wisdom is only a temporal/temporary commandment for this dispensation, right?

It seems a weird choice to use an example of the consequences of moral agency, since the early LDS leaders, not to mention Christ Himself, drank alcohol.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Matthew Andreasen said:

According to 1830ish usage, agency is primarily the ability or capacity to act, moral agency is the ability to act in matters pertaining to good and evil, and free agency is the ability to act voluntarily according to one’s own free will.  We generally use these three terms interchangeably in the Church today, but at the time the revelations/scriptures where given, they had distinct meanings.

The concept of moral agency from the early 1800s also implies that the law of God is the standard by which an action is determined to be good or evil, and that as moral agents, men and women are held accountable to God and by society for their actions.

I wrote a book called "The Agency Discussions" which looks at the concept of Agency based off of the original meaning of the word and then applies those ideas to LDS scripture.  The definition we commonly use in the Church today has more to do with the concept of "free" than it does with "agency."

Welcome to the board!

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

As I understand it, the word of wisdom is only a temporal/temporary commandment for this dispensation, right?

It seems a weird choice to use an example of the consequences of moral agency, since the early LDS leaders, not to mention Christ Himself, drank alcohol.

Yes, you're right, but there are other more Fundamentalist interpretations.

I stopped drinking, smoking, lost my coffee habit, and lost weight.

The concept is to become more healthy, but one does find an occasional member  who does not drink coffee or alcohol, smoke etc, but has a definite chocolate cake jones.

We try.

But not everyone is as perfect as I am.

(Dodging lightning bolts) 😰

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by mfbukowski

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

As I understand it, the word of wisdom is only a temporal/temporary commandment for this dispensation, right?

It seems a weird choice to use an example of the consequences of moral agency, since the early LDS leaders, not to mention Christ Himself, drank alcohol.

This is a Latter-Day Saint oriented discussion board, so whether you as a Catholic agree with it or not faithful Latter-Day Saints believe the Lord has placed a prohibition on the consumption of alcoholic beverages for the members of his restored church in this dispensation. Therefore my example of how a member of the Lord’s restored church would be choosing to do wrong if he went ahead and indulged in a first drink of alcohol is perfectly consistent with Latter-Day Saint belief. Regardless of what may have happened in previous dispensations, for the Latter-Day Saints of this dispensation the consumption of alcohol is a sin, and it would be a sin for you as well if you ever chose to become a Latter-Day Saint.

An additional point to ponder: I believe there are thousands of Latter-Day Saints who have avoided the manifold life destroying miseries of alcoholism because the Lord has mercifully warned them against letting their guard down and partaking of that first beguiling drink. I’m extremely grateful when I realize just how many lives have been spared from degradation and ruin thanks to the Lord’s prohibition on the consumption of alcohol in this dispensation!

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

As I understand it, the word of wisdom is only a temporal/temporary commandment for this dispensation, right?

It seems a weird choice to use an example of the consequences of moral agency, since the early LDS leaders, not to mention Christ Himself, drank alcohol.

I think it was more about addiction than anything else.

There are coffee addicts, alcohol addicts. Tobacco?

Sho' nuff.

Does this generation have a problem perhaps with an addiction or two? Obviously, more wide spread than ever before!

Yet to teach that, one needed examples within the culture that everyone was familiar with. 

No drug cartels were available as an example of the effects of addiction in those days!

What about porn?

Yet the Lord was looking ahead at US, we of the Latter Days, at things not yet even imagined.  It wasn't about the substance, it was about the BEHAVIOR!

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

This is a Latter-Day Saint oriented discussion board, so whether you as a Catholic agree with it or not faithful Latter-Day Saints believe the Lord has placed a prohibition on the consumption of alcoholic beverages for the members of his restored church in this dispensation. Therefore my example of how a member of the Lord’s restored church would be choosing to do wrong if he went ahead and indulged in a first drink of alcohol is perfectly consistent with Latter-Day Saint belief. Regardless of what may have happened in previous dispensations, for the Latter-Day Saints of this dispensation the consumption of alcohol is a sin, and it would be a sin for you as well if you ever chose to become a Latter-Day Saint.

An additional point to ponder: I believe there are thousands of Latter-Day Saints who have avoided the manifold life destroying miseries of alcoholism because the Lord has mercifully warned them against letting their guard down and partaking of that first beguiling drink. I’m extremely grateful when I realize just how many lives have been spared from degradation and ruin thanks to the Lord’s prohibition on the consumption of alcohol in this dispensation!

 

But how many miseries did they endure because they could not drink said miseries away?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I think it was more about addiction than anything else.

There are coffee addicts, alcohol addicts. Tobacco?

Sho' nuff.

Does this generation have a problem perhaps with an addiction or two? Obviously, more wide spread than ever before!

Yet to teach that, one needed examples within the culture that everyone was familiar with. 

No drug cartels were available as an example of the effects of addiction in those days!

What about porn?

Yet the Lord was looking ahead at US, we of the Latter Days, at things not yet even imagined.  It wasn't about the substance, it was about the BEHAVIOR!

Yet little of that is mentioned in the Word of Wisdom.

[telnetd]

On 11/13/2023 at 12:14 PM, Pyreaux said:

"Agency" meaning we have freedom to make choices. Specifically, choices of a "moral" nature, we can make both "good and bad" choices.

Obedience in their premortal life determined their preordained time, location and purpose when they will incarnate. Our standing in these after phases in our progression seem to begin with the consequence of our past choices.

Did obedience or disobedience cause the progression of Adam and Eve to begin in
their pre-mortal life?

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yet little of that is mentioned in the Word of Wisdom.

Presentism.

They didn't think that way, imo.

They only had "bad habits".    ?

1828 Webster's :

"Addiction

---

ADDIC'TION, noun

1. The act of devoting or giving up in practice; the state of being devoted.

His addiction was to courses vain.

2. Among the Romans, a making over goods to another by sale or legal sentence; also an assignment of debtors in service in their creditors."

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Did obedience or disobedience cause the progression of Adam and Eve to begin in
their pre-mortal life?

In LDS thought it's a bit of both do to Lehi's commentary in 2 Nephi 2:22 that if Adam and Eve had not chosen to transgress, they would have forever “remained in the same state in which they were after they were created.” They would not have progressed. This would have frustrated Heavenly Father’s plan for His children.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed, he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden, and all things which were created must have remained in the same state which they were after they were created, and they must have remained forever and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children. Wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence—having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. 24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.  25 Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy.

They couldn't obey to 1) Multiply and Dominate the earth via procreation. Without disobeying 2) Don't eat the fruit or you'll die, but you'll know you are naked and other carnal things, and good from evil, and joy from sorrow.

Adam and Eve's transgression was not a true choice between good or evil as they didn't know any better. It's looked upon as intentionally set up to disobey. Why a forbidden tree, a beguiling serpent, and a innocent, ignorant and an immortal pair of people alone all the time? On a long enough timeline, the odds they wouldn't eventually disobey drops to zero. Since Jesus was the lamb foreordained from before the foundation of the earth, to redeem the negative consequences of the Fall, but we get to keep the positive effects of the Fall, including our moral agency to choose good or evil. The Fall was a net gain.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Matthew Andreasen]

telnetd:

For clarification:  When you ask about Adam and Eve's "pre-mortal life," are you referring to their life in the Garden of Eden prior to the fall and their becoming mortal, or are you referring to their life as spirits prior to their gaining a physical body in the Garden of Eden?  I'm not sure I understand your question "Did obedience or disobedience cause the progression of Adam and Eve to begin in
their pre-mortal life?"

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, Matthew Andreasen said:

telnetd:

For clarification:  When you ask about Adam and Eve's "pre-mortal life," are you referring to their life in the Garden of Eden prior to the fall and their becoming mortal, or are you referring to their life as spirits prior to their gaining a physical body in the Garden of Eden?  I'm not sure I understand your question "Did obedience or disobedience cause the progression of Adam and Eve to begin in
their pre-mortal life?"

Just to help, to quote another's comment, just use the "quote" function at the bottom of the comment on which YOU would like to make a comment, as I just did, and now your post is in the above text box, and the individual to whom you are replying will automatically notified of your reply.

You can also use the "@" symbol, and type in the first few letters of his "name", a pop up will then appear, select the correct name, and the person to whom you are responding will also be notified; without one of those notifications, he may not see your response.

Example: @telnetd

He has now been notified about your comment 

Edited November 15, 2023 by mfbukowski