The Savior's Restored Gospel and feminism

[nuclearfuels]

Before the time when men had a Priesthood session in General Conference -

Before the Endowment was updated, twice (which to me in several places states the same principle only using different words)- 

Before the Relief Society started helping families move in/out of wards and set up/take down chairs (really hoping I live to see this) - 

Before the Primary and Relief Society had thier own auxilliary=specific Area Authority-like callings issued (hasn't happened yet but I wouldn't be surprised to see it soon) - 

Before women generally of a grandmother's age divorced thier husbands with little to no outreach before, during or after the divorce - 

it seems to me the Bible and BoM prophets didn't write much about thier wives just as Heavenly Father protects His - out of respect, from scorn, mocking, and derision. 

I don't see this as the men putting down thier wives. 

So to me:

1. What wives do - in addition to - concieving, gestating, delivering, nurturing and raising all of thier children - while the husbands are mostly not home (due to work, callings, etc.) is similar to the pioneer's level of faith crossing the plains. That level of sacrifice takes a powerful level of faith.

2. People like General Authorities, Temple Presidents, Mission Presidents - (whose wives de facto serve as mother of the ward, stake mother, mission mother, and now Temple mother/matron) also served in feminine / feminist callings - because the Church is the Bride of the Savior. In essence then, those men who serve in leadership callings are preparing the Bride (the Church) for the wedding which is the Second Coming. One could further anaolgize this in a way that they are Chief Bridesmaids - one in charge of the team that takes care of the bride's makeup, one in charge of the team overseeing the bride's hair, anotehr team for the dress, another for the viel, another team in charge of the flowers, the venue, the food, the catering, the expenses, the lodgning, the priest, etc. 

3. Just my own opinion here - The gospel implies that men need the priesthood to grow and develop spiritually; women are co-equal w/ our Heavenly Parents in their ability to create life. To me this suggests women were more spiritually advanced premortally due to agency they exercised in that ilfe - as they do not need to be guilted, pressured, etc. to take care of thier kids, family, home, etc. while men in general must be told these things or they will literaly start wars and physically assault (or worse) women.

To borrow smac's phrase: thoughts?

Edited September 3, 2023 by nuclearfuels
nvm

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

...to me this suggests women were more spiritually advanced premortally...

Listen carefully early in the newest endowment presentation when the narrator describes the ordinances already given to men vs women.

There is a difference 

[manol]

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Listen carefully early in the newest endowment presentation when the narrator describes the ordinances already given to men vs women.

There is a difference 

Yup!

And notice who wears items of clothing which have the word "priesthood" in their name, and notice who receives or otherwise participates (equally!) in ceremonies or ordinances central to which is something having to do with "priesthood".   Come to think of it, just about everything in the temple is associated with priesthood... wouldn't it be out of place if one-half of the full-on participants had no priesthood??

Just before being allowed through the veil, a sacred claim or assertion is made.  Imagine that claim or assertion being made by a female (which happens all the time). 

Edited September 3, 2023 by manol

[Rain]

 

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Before the time when men had a Priesthood session in General Conference -

Before the Endowment was updated, twice (which to me in several places states the same principle only using different words)- 

Before the Relief Society started helping families move in/out of wards and set up/take down chairs (really hoping I live to see this) - 

Before the Primary and Relief Society had thier own auxilliary=specific Area Authority-like callings issued (hasn't happened yet but I wouldn't be surprised to see it soon) - 

Before women generally of a grandmother's age divorced thier husbands with little to no outreach before, during or after the divorce - 

it seems to me the Bible and BoM prophets didn't write much about thier wives just as Heavenly Father protects His - out of respect, from scorn, mocking, and derision. 

I don't see this as the men putting down thier wives. 

So to me:

1. What wives do - in addition to - concieving, gestating, delivering, nurturing and raising all of thier children - while the husbands are mostly not home (due to work, callings, etc.) is similar to the pioneer's level of faith crossing the plains. That level of sacrifice takes a powerful level of faith.

2. People like General Authorities, Temple Presidents, Mission Presidents - (whose wives de facto serve as mother of the ward, stake mother, mission mother, and now Temple mother/matron) also served in feminine / feminist callings - because the Church is the Bride of the Savior. In essence then, those men who serve in leadership callings are preparing the Bride (the Church) for the wedding which is the Second Coming. One could further anaolgize this in a way that they are Chief Bridesmaids - one in charge of the team that takes care of the bride's makeup, one in charge of the team overseeing the bride's hair, anotehr team for the dress, another for the viel, another team in charge of the flowers, the venue, the food, the catering, the expenses, the lodgning, the priest, etc. 

3. Just my own opinion here - The gospel implies that men need the priesthood to grow and develop spiritually; women are co-equal w/ our Heavenly Parents in their ability to create life. To me this suggests women were more spiritually advanced premortally due to agency they exercised in that ilfe - as they do not need to be guilted, pressured, etc. to take care of thier kids, family, home, etc. while men in general must be told these things or they will literaly start wars and physically assault (or worse) women.

To borrow smac's phrase: thoughts?

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

To me this suggests women were more spiritually advanced premortally due to agency they exercised in that ilfe - as they do not need to be guilted, pressured, etc. to take care of thier kids, family, home, etc. while men in general must be told these things or they will literaly start wars and physically assault (or worse) women.

To borrow smac's phrase: thoughts?

I have many thoughts on this, but don't want to get into it right now for all of them, except for these two.

1. My husband loves and respects me.  He tells his friends and coworkers about me because he loves much of what I do.  Staying silent about me would never be "respect".  The idea that we don't hear anything out of protecting Heavenly Mother out of respect is patronizing.

2.  Men are just as spiritual as women.  We may show it differently (just like each person shows it differently), but I grow weary of telling others to quit putting the men in my family down with the "women are more spiritual" untruth.

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, manol said:

Imagine that claim or assertion being made by a female (which happens all the time). 

Every single time a woman temple worker officiates in administring the ordinances to another woman, by the delegated authority of the temple President's priesthood as she is set apart, exactly as the men are set apart.

I have been  blessed to stand in on the setting apart of sister temple workers-  it's no different than setting men apart.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Before the Relief Society started helping families move in/out of wards and set up/take down chairs (really hoping I live to see this) -

You haven’t seen the RS go in and help pack up homes and then clean them up afterwards?  Honestly now I am less adventurous than in my youth I would prefer an afternoon (or even all day)of moving boxes because it takes less time and is less likely to come across something gross.

And the same with the chair stuff, that takes less time than having to arrange refreshments, serve and clean up afterwards (and I know of what I speak because I always help with the chair stuff when around as I find it difficult to chat and chairs give me a reason not to)….be careful of what you wish for because if the RS officially starts doing this, don’t you think the men are going to be asked to start helping in the ways the women do too?

Maybe the fact the women were not getting recognized much in scriptures has more to do with men writing the scriptures and like you, the authors and scribes and editors just didn’t noticed or care enough to publicly recognize what women were doing because it wasn’t what they were interested in because they were focused on what they did, the moving of boxes part of moving and the setting up chairs part of life and not the cleaning or the food prep parts, which is not respectful, just very human.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Calm

[Buckeye]

18 hours ago, Rain said:

 

2.  Men are just as spiritual as women.  We may show it differently (just like each person shows it differently), but I grow weary of telling others to quit putting the men in my family down with the "women are more spiritual" untruth.

 

Thank you Rain. I’m also very weary of hearing my sons, brothers, and myself belittled through the false doctrine that men need priesthood to become equal to women. We are born equal. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Buckeye

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

 

I have many thoughts on this, but don't want to get into it right now for all of them, except for these two.

1. My husband loves and respects me.  He tells his friends and coworkers about me because he loves much of what I do.  Staying silent about me would never be "respect".  The idea that we don't hear anything out of protecting Heavenly Mother out of respect is patronizing.

2.  Men are just as spiritual as women.  We may show it differently (just like each person shows it differently), but I grow weary of telling others to quit putting the men in my family down with the "women are more spiritual" untruth.

 

❤️

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

You haven’t seen the RS go in and help pack up homes and then clean them up afterwards?  Honestly now I am less adventurous than in my youth I would prefer an afternoon (or even all day)of moving boxes because it takes less time and is less likely to come across something gross.

And the same with the chair stuff, that takes less time than having to arrange refreshments, serve and clean up afterwards….be careful for what you wish for because if the RS officially starts doing this, don’t you think the men are going to be asked to start helping in the ways the women do too?

Maybe the fact the women were not getting recognized much in scriptures has more to do with men writing the scriptures and like you, the authors and scribes and editors just didn’t noticed or care enough to publicly recognize what women were doing because it wasn’t what they were interested in because they were focused on what they did, the moving of boxes part of moving and the setting up chairs part of life and not the cleaning or the food prep parts, which is not respectful, just very human.

☝️

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Buckeye said:

That you Rain. I’m also very weary of hearing my sons, brothers, and myself belittled through the false doctrine that men need priesthood to become equal to women. We are born equal. 

The whole idea is ridiculous when you start thinking of the implications and what this would have meant for humanity if true.  Reminds me of the Golafrinchans’ Ark Ship B of Hitchhikers’ Guide.

It was the noble ones that helped God in creation and who God referred to as his spiritual leaders, etc in the scriptures.  If women were inherently more spiritual, more noble, God would be making sure that they would be up there at the pulpit and leading his church and leading the family.

 Allowing men, the inherently spiritually inferior to be in charge of the family’s well being, and not just allowing, but requiring the men to lead/preside would be setting families up intentionally to fail more than necessary, especially in times when women were in much more subservient positions and contributed little outside their limited spheres.  

Since neither sex is inherently spiritually superior, while the significant imbalance of power dynamics in the family relationship in past cultures and even in our own past and present at times (though now it can be a wife dominating where they shouldn’t as well) was damaging for both women and men, at least it wasn’t leaving the family in the hands of the less competent leader.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Calm

[nuclearfuels]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

patronizing

Well, then please call me - and all those who wrote the Bible and BoM - patronizing. 

Remember, facts over feelings and reals over feels = effective positions and arguments.

Patrons = customers that keep businesses open. 

Patriarchal blessings, to me, are good things. 

Love me some more of that allegedly patronizing patriarchy 

[nuclearfuels]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

Men are just as spiritual as women.

Are you familiar with crime statistics? or human bioology perhaps (testosterone, adrenaline, anger and the like and its prevalence between genders)?

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Are you familiar with crime statistics? or human bioology perhaps (testosterone, adrenaline, anger and the like and its prevalence between genders)?

So testosterone inhibits spirituality?

[nuclearfuels]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

 If women were inherently more spiritual, more noble, God would be making sure that they would be up there at the pulpit and leading his church and leading the family.

 Allowing men, the inherently spiritually inferior to be in charge of the family’s well being, and not just allowing, but requiring the men to lead/preside would be setting families up intentionally to fail more than necessary, especially in times when women were in much more subservient positions and contributed little outside their limited spheres.  

1. Being up there at the pulpit does not equal being spiritually superior or greater. Administrations does not equal testimony strength, size, etc.

Men leading the family is an extension of work outside the home where constant trade-offs, compromises, and selecting the lesser-evil decisions are required - as well as budgeting, prioritizing, etc. (at the same time: raising kids is if not more at least equally important) - according to the Famly Proc:

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.

2. limited spheres? You think creating life and raising life is limited? 

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

You haven’t seen the RS go in and help pack up homes and then clean them up afterwards?  Honestly now I am less adventurous than in my youth I would prefer an afternoon (or even all day)of moving boxes because it takes less time and is less likely to come across something gross.

And the same with the chair stuff, that takes less time than having to arrange refreshments, serve and clean up afterwards (and I know of what I speak because I always help with the chair stuff when around as I find it difficult to chat and chairs give me a reason not to)….be careful of what you wish for because if the RS officially starts doing this, don’t you think the men are going to be asked to start helping in the ways the women do too?

Maybe the fact the women were not getting recognized much in scriptures has more to do with men writing the scriptures and like you, the authors and scribes and editors just didn’t noticed or care enough to publicly recognize what women were doing because it wasn’t what they were interested in because they were focused on what they did, the moving of boxes part of moving and the setting up chairs part of life and not the cleaning or the food prep parts, which is not respectful, just very human.

Golly gee, this is not very PC.

You make it seem like women have differences from men.

Tsk tsk for you! 

We must have a demonstration!

Golly gee! Not PC!

Golly gee! Not PC!

Golly gee! Not PC!

😏

[CV75]

16 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Before the time when men had a Priesthood session in General Conference -

Before the Endowment was updated, twice (which to me in several places states the same principle only using different words)- 

Before the Relief Society started helping families move in/out of wards and set up/take down chairs (really hoping I live to see this) - 

Before the Primary and Relief Society had thier own auxilliary=specific Area Authority-like callings issued (hasn't happened yet but I wouldn't be surprised to see it soon) - 

Before women generally of a grandmother's age divorced thier husbands with little to no outreach before, during or after the divorce - 

it seems to me the Bible and BoM prophets didn't write much about thier wives just as Heavenly Father protects His - out of respect, from scorn, mocking, and derision. 

I don't see this as the men putting down thier wives. 

So to me:

1. What wives do - in addition to - concieving, gestating, delivering, nurturing and raising all of thier children - while the husbands are mostly not home (due to work, callings, etc.) is similar to the pioneer's level of faith crossing the plains. That level of sacrifice takes a powerful level of faith.

2. People like General Authorities, Temple Presidents, Mission Presidents - (whose wives de facto serve as mother of the ward, stake mother, mission mother, and now Temple mother/matron) also served in feminine / feminist callings - because the Church is the Bride of the Savior. In essence then, those men who serve in leadership callings are preparing the Bride (the Church) for the wedding which is the Second Coming. One could further anaolgize this in a way that they are Chief Bridesmaids - one in charge of the team that takes care of the bride's makeup, one in charge of the team overseeing the bride's hair, anotehr team for the dress, another for the viel, another team in charge of the flowers, the venue, the food, the catering, the expenses, the lodgning, the priest, etc. 

3. Just my own opinion here - The gospel implies that men need the priesthood to grow and develop spiritually; women are co-equal w/ our Heavenly Parents in their ability to create life. To me this suggests women were more spiritually advanced premortally due to agency they exercised in that ilfe - as they do not need to be guilted, pressured, etc. to take care of thier kids, family, home, etc. while men in general must be told these things or they will literaly start wars and physically assault (or worse) women.

To borrow smac's phrase: thoughts?

1. There is a societal version and a covenant version as to what wives do. As social pressures and mores change, the prophetic guidance we receive concerns how to best keep the covenants under present conditions.

2. Everyone in their calling is to carry it out by virtue of priesthood power.

3. Priesthood office is not priesthood power. The reason men have priesthood office and women do not is not given, but we can presume, given all else that is right in the doctrine of the plan of happiness, it has to do with the economies of (what works best in) bringing heaven to earth through foreordained, embodied spirits, some of whom are male and some of whom are female.

Edited September 3, 2023 by CV75

[nuclearfuels]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So testosterone inhibits spirituality?

Yes.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Yes.

So being a transgender woman using hrt is the quickest route to spirituality?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

2. limited spheres? You think creating life and raising life is limited? 

No, I think having to stay in the tent/home and not speak to any men other than immediate family, not being able to raise your sons after a certain age, not being able to shop, go to school, learn to read, etc is limiting.

 

[MustardSeed]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So being a transgender woman using hrt is the quickest route to spirituality?

Lol- 

I have a higher T level naturally.  Might explain why the HG has never been inside me

[Rain]

9 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Well, then please call me - and all those who wrote the Bible and BoM - patronizing. 

Remember, facts over feelings and reals over feels = effective positions and arguments.

Patrons = customers that keep businesses open. 

Patriarchal blessings, to me, are good things. 

Love me some more of that allegedly patronizing patriarchy 

Please show me in the bible or the book of mormon anywhere that says something like, "the reason Heavenly Father doesn't let us know about Heavenly Mother is out of respect to protect her."  I am unaware of anywhere in the scriptures that idea exists.

[Rain]

9 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Are you familiar with crime statistics? or human bioology perhaps (testosterone, adrenaline, anger and the like and its prevalence between genders)?

Yes, but that has nothing to do with what I said.

[bluebell]

On 9/2/2023 at 5:41 PM, nuclearfuels said:

 

Before the Relief Society started helping families move in/out of wards and set up/take down chairs (really hoping I live to see this) - 

 

Our ward is the last one in the building on Sundays.  The women take down the chairs the same as the men do.  But, I can get behind your statement when the EQ starts helping provide child care, providing meals to people suffering or in need, preparing and hosting funeral meals for large groups, and cleaning homes regularly.

Edited September 4, 2023 by bluebell

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Please show me in the bible or the book of mormon anywhere that says something like, "the reason Heavenly Father doesn't let us know about Heavenly Mother is out of respect to protect her."  I am unaware of anywhere in the scriptures that idea exists.

Forgive the casual terms I am going to use of the Gods but I think it helps with the explanation.

There was some folklore when I was younger that General Authorities had shut down questions about our Mom(s) with lines about all of us being unworthy to speak to her and/or that Dad was saving Her from dealing with the blasphemy and disrespect many heap on Him and in some cases that God would get so incensed by such disrespect He would destroy us all.

I find all of it unconvincing. The idea that such a tactic would save Mom grief suggests Mom doesn’t care what we think of Dad. It also imputes a bad kind of toxic masculinity on Dad that He would storm and rage and beat the kids when that is not even what Mom in Her hurt wants.

There was probably some kernel of truth in all those rumors but I doubt that that kernel came from revelation. It was more likely a plausible justification to address a question that no one has an answer for.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Forgive the casual terms I am going to use of the Gods but I think it helps with the explanation.

There was some folklore when I was younger that General Authorities had shut down questions about our Mom(s) with lines about all of us being unworthy to speak to her and/or that Dad was saving Her from dealing with the blasphemy and disrespect many heap on Him and in some cases that God would get so incensed by such disrespect He would destroy us all.

I find all of it unconvincing. The idea that such a tactic would save Mom grief suggests Mom doesn’t care what we think of Dad. It also imputes a bad kind of toxic masculinity on Dad that He would storm and rage and beat the kids when that is not even what Mom in Her hurt wants.

There was probably some kernel of truth in all those rumors but I doubt that that kernel came from revelation. It was more likely a plausible justification to address a question that no one has an answer for.

I'm aware of this type of thinking, but he said, "Well, then please call me - and all those who wrote the Bible and BoM" which leads me to believe he thinks it is also in both of them.