A near death experience.

[Dario_M]

Hello guys how are you?

I've been watching some NDE's stories yesterday and this morning. And i've noticed that all those storie's have a lot of simularity's with each other. In every storie i listen to the person tells that he/she had an encounter with Jesus Christ. And God. (And a few stories where also about hell, but i don't wanna talk about those stories) Anyway in those stories the person claims that Jesus told them that they had made a contract with God to go to earth bevore their birth. The reason to go to earth was because of the experience, the good and the bad and also to fulfile a purpose. And as long as that contract is running you're supposed to stay on earth till the day the contract is over and we are allowed to go back. In nearly every NDE storie i heard that person was telling about a contract we've all made. The same exact contract and the same exact reason why.

What does the Book of Mormon, Bible or the Doctrines & covenants tells us about an possible contract we have made with God? 

[manol]

10 hours ago, Dario_M said:

I've been watching some NDE's stories yesterday and this morning. And i've noticed that all those storie's have a lot of simularity's with each other. In every storie i listen to the person tells that he/she had an encounter with Jesus Christ. And God. (And a few stories where also about hell, but i don't wanna talk about those stories) Anyway in those stories the person claims that Jesus told them that they had made a contract with God to go to earth bevore their birth. The reason to go to earth was because of the experience, the good and the bad and also to fulfile a purpose. And as long as that contract is running you're supposed to stay on earth till the day the contract is over and we are allowed to go back. In nearly every NDE storie i heard that person was telling about a contract we've all made. The same exact contract and the same exact reason why.

What does the Book of Mormon, Bible or the Doctrines & covenants tells us about an possible contract we have made with God? 

The LDS Church is possibly unique among Christian religions in teaching that we existed BEFORE we came to this earth, such that contracts (“covenants” is probably the LDS term) could have been made before we were born.

@Kevin Christensen wrote an excellent paper about Near Death Experiences and the Book of Mormon:

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=jbms

Offhand I can't think of specific scriptures that refer to contracts or covenants we made before we were born, but I think that idea is consistent with the LDS concept of a “covenant path”.

Here is a video of someone who remembers his pre-earth life, or at least some of it, quite vividly.  The link is cued up to start where the veil is put in place, and imo the next five minutes or so of the video are well worthwhile. Or you can go back and watch from the beginning.

https://youtu.be/7PO-Op38o-k?t=609

The 9th Article of Faith says:  “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God" [emphasis mine].  In my opinion the accounts of near-death experiencers fall into the category of things which God "does now reveal". 

And Joseph Smith might agree with valuing the experiential over the theoretical:  "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject." 

Edited July 15, 2023 by manol

[blackstrap]

There is Jeremiah 1 : 5 that hints at pre-mortal connections

[Nofear]

There are many, many NDE accounts. Not all are consistent with LDS theology but many are. Thinking about them from a physics perspective posseses several challenges if one insists on physicalism (as I do). My current hypothesis is that NDEs are basically a sophisticated “virtual reality” encounter designed and tailored to the individual to prepare them for transition to the Spirit World. Doesn't make them any less real, as it were. At the same time I wouldn't ever use them to truly inform my theology (with the possible exception of a personal NDE if I ever have one).

[Rain]

Be careful about looking into NDEs if you are prone to depression. I found that when I was experiencing depression and started looking into NDEs it was not a good thing.

[manol]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

Be careful about looking into NDEs if you are prone to depression. I found that when I was experiencing depression and started looking into NDEs it was not a good thing.

My experience has been the opposite.  My experience with depression was a primary reason why I widened my search radius enough to include NDEs, and I find NDEs to present a very hopeful outlook.  Maybe I'm missing something?

If you don't mind sharing, what did you find depressing about NDEs? 

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by manol

[MustardSeed]

I imagine if someone is depressed, the sound of a delightful experience in death can increase suicidality. 

[Rain]

8 minutes ago, manol said:

My experience has been the opposite.  My experience with depression was a primary reason why I widened my search radius enough to include NDEs, and I find NDEs to present a very hopeful outlook.  Maybe I'm missing something?

If you don't mind sharing, what did you find depressing about NDEs? 

 

I found nothing depressing about NDEs. It was life I found more depressing and death I looked more forward to.  I recognize that people will have different experiences which is why I say to be careful rather than say avoid the study.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Rain

[manol]

20 minutes ago, Rain said:

I found nothing depressing about NDEs. It was life I found more depressing and death I looked more forward to. 

Thanks for clarifying.

I understand what you're saying.  Further along in the Christian Sundberg IANDS talk linked to above he mentions that one of the functions of the Veil is to prevent extreme homesickness. 

I read enough NDE accounts that the message "suicide does not make your problems go away" got through to me... which WAS a bummer!!  On the other hand apparently neither is it the one-way ticket to hell that religions often make it out to be.  A side effect was that somewhere along the way I mostly lost my fear of death (though not my fear of dying).

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I recognize that people will have different experiences which is why I say to be careful rather than say avoid the study.

I think God has many, many voices he can speak to his children through, NDEs being just one of them... one which was not available to previous generations, at least not in abundance. 

 

[Pyreaux]

"Foreordination", an important doctrine of the LDS Church that teaches that during the pre-mortal existence, God "foreordained" particular people to fulfill certain "missions" during their mortal lives. There is a set time, place and circumstance they'll be born and a duration for the lives of these people.

"Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever." (D&C 122:9).

[Dario_M]

12 hours ago, manol said:

The LDS Church is possibly unique among Christian religions in teaching that we existed BEFORE we came to this earth,

Yes!!! That's nice to know That's another thing of our church then, that is true i believe so.🥳

12 hours ago, manol said:

such that contracts (“covenants” is probably the LDS term) could have been made before we were born.

@Kevin Christensen wrote an excellent paper about Near Death Experiences and the Book of Mormon:

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=jbms

Offhand I can't think of specific scriptures that refer to contracts or covenants we made before we were born, but I think that idea is consistent with the LDS concept of a “covenant path”.

It's so weird. I hear a lot of people that had an NDE talking about a contract. It's just scary how similair those stories are.

12 hours ago, manol said:

Here is a video of someone who remembers his pre-earth life, or at least some of it, quite vividly.  The link is cued up to start where the veil is put in place, and imo the next five minutes or so of the video are well worthwhile. Or you can go back and watch from the beginning.

https://youtu.be/7PO-Op38o-k?t=609

The 9th Article of Faith says:  “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God" [emphasis mine].  In my opinion the accounts of near-death experiencers fall into the category of things which God "does now reveal". 

And Joseph Smith might agree with valuing the experiential over the theoretical:  "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject." 

Thank you for the video. I will watch it later though. I'm going to church about a bit. Need to shower as well. You too have a church service later on. ✝️

[Dario_M]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

Be careful about looking into NDEs if you are prone to depression. I found that when I was experiencing depression and started looking into NDEs it was not a good thing.

Yes that's why i don't wanna discuss the NDE's about hell on this topic. Because those stories are straight up depressing. People with a depression might not wanna hear those. 

[Dario_M]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I imagine if someone is depressed, the sound of a delightful experience in death can increase suicidality. 

Yeah but not all the stories are so delightful though.

[Dario_M]

8 hours ago, manol said:

Thanks for clarifying.

I understand what you're saying.  Further along in the Christian Sundberg IANDS talk linked to above he mentions that one of the functions of the Veil is to prevent extreme homesickness. 

 

 

That's what all those people are talking about as well. That they feel homesickness after they had their NDE. And they wanna go back so desperatly. But they may not because they have still important matters to do on earth. 

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

"Foreordination", an important doctrine of the LDS Church that teaches that during the pre-mortal existence, God "foreordained" particular people to fulfill certain "missions" during their mortal lives. There is a set time, place and circumstance they'll be born and a duration for the lives of these people.

"Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever." (D&C 122:9).

God shall with you forever and ever? That sounds promising. But...what if you're going straight to hell after you've had taken your last breath? Is God then still with you? Or are you on your own from that moment? I ask this because they say that tje worst thing about hell is not the physical pain. But the emotional pain. The feeling that you have screwed it up so badly plus a thousand times worse, and there is nobody with you that can help you anymore. The feeling that you're so lonely (eventhough you're imprisoned with many other souls). The worst feeling you can imagine...with no releave (like you do have on earth after a while). How can God still be with you if you're in such a bad situation. 

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Nofear said:

There are many, many NDE accounts. Not all are consistent with LDS theology but many are. Thinking about them from a physics perspective posseses several challenges if one insists on physicalism (as I do). My current hypothesis is that NDEs are basically a sophisticated “virtual reality” encounter designed and tailored to the individual to prepare them for transition to the Spirit World. Doesn't make them any less real, as it were. At the same time I wouldn't ever use them to truly inform my theology (with the possible exception of a personal NDE if I ever have one).

Why would people who don’t actually die get this virtual reality tutorial of the spirit world?

[Dario_M]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Why would people who don’t actually die get this virtual reality tutorial of the spirit world?

Edit. Those people where really dead for some minutes. They where clinical dead. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Dario_M

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

But...what if you're going straight to hell after you've had taken your last breath? Is God then still with you? Or are you on your own from that moment?

Hell in LDS belief is two different places or states of being.

The more common Hell is Spirit Prison and exactly what that is remains unknown.  Those in spirit prison are taught the gospel, so God has not left them on their own, but they may not be sensitive enough to the Spirit to be aware of his presence.  Perhaps it will be different in Spirit Prison and there will be no blocking of the awareness of the Spirit since it has been promised to those in the Telestial Kingdom.  If those in Spirit Prison repent, God forgives them in hell as he does on earth.  Those who don’t repent suffer in some fashion (my guess is emotional pain and mental anguish, but perhaps they suffer physically in the same way those they sinned against suffer…at least the pain as God would allow sins to be committed even for retribution) till they are purified of their sins (how one is purified without repenting is beyond me) and then after resurrection exist in the Telestial Kingdom.

The second hell is also called Outer Darkness.  The only ones who appear to be on their own are Sons of Perdition and those are the few individuals who most likely have been equivalent to prophets, who then reject God.  Last thing they apparently want is God’s companionship.  They apparently will get Satan and his followers’ as their fellow residents in Outer Darkness.  What happens to them is unknown.  Seems like there would be no purpose for them to spend time getting punished because they won’t repent, neither do they need to be purified (if they could be, which I doubt) because they won’t be receiving even Telestial glory.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng

Edited July 16, 2023 by Calm

[Nofear]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Why would people who don’t actually die get this virtual reality tutorial of the spirit world?

Why would one who didn't die see anything at all? We call them near death, but they did die… just didn't stick.

[Tacenda]

Reading stories of NDE's helped me when my parents passed away suddenly, first my dad with a heart attack and then my mom two months after who had Alzheimer's for 10 years or so, died of a broken heart apparently because she wouldn't eat after that and missed my dad. So helped me feel there is an after life where I'd been unsure of it during my crisis of faith in it. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Tacenda

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Hell in LDS belief is two different places or states of being.

The more common Hell is Spirit Prison and exactly what that is remains unknown.  Those in spirit prison are taught the gospel, so God has not left them on their own, but they may not be sensitive enough to the Spirit to be aware of his presence.  Perhaps it will be different in Spirit Prison and there will be no blocking of the awareness of the Spirit since it has been promised to those in the Telestial Kingdom.  If those in Spirit Prison repent, God forgives them in hell as he does on earth.  Those who don’t repent suffer in some fashion (my guess is emotional pain and mental anguish, but perhaps they suffer physically in the same way those they sinned against suffer…at least the pain as God would allow sins to be committed even for retribution) till they are purified of their sins (how one is purified without repenting is beyond me) and then after resurrection exist in the Telestial Kingdom.

 

It all makes me super scared. The whole telestial kingdom. Hell. The spirit sprison. I don'wanna get turtured by demons everyday. Wait wait...time doesn't exist on those places.☠ 

7 hours ago, Calm said:

The second hell is also called Outer Darkness.  The only ones who appear to be on their own are Sons of Perdition and those are the few individuals who most likely have been equivalent to prophets, who then reject God.  Last thing they apparently want is God’s companionship.  They apparently will get Satan and his followers’ as their fellow residents in Outer Darkness.  What happens to them is unknown.  Seems like there would be no purpose for them to spend time getting punished because they won’t repent, neither do they need to be purified (if they could be, which I doubt) because they won’t be receiving even Telestial glory.

Other darkness must be the most horible place then. Not a place i wanna go to quite soon. 💀

7 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng

Thanks i will look into it. When i have some time. I'm so tired now. 

[Dario_M]

18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Reading stories of NDE's helped me when my parents passed away suddenly, first my dad with a heart attack and then my mom two months after who had Alzheimer's for 10 years or so, died of a broken heart apparently because she wouldn't eat after that and missed my dad. So helped me feel there is an after life where I'd been unsure of it during my crisis of faith in it. 

Aawh what a said storie.😭 I'm so sorry about your mom and your dad. 🫂 Let's assume that they are home now. And you will meet them again....once. 🫂🫂🫂

Edited July 17, 2023 by Dario_M

[manol]

On 7/15/2023 at 4:14 PM, Nofear said:

My current hypothesis is that NDEs are basically a sophisticated “virtual reality” encounter designed and tailored to the individual to prepare them for transition to the Spirit World.

I think you are absolutely correct in that each person's NDE is "designed and tailored to the individual", but I think the purpose is often more about that person fulfilling their mission/contract/covenants for THIS world.

Many near-death experiencers come back saying that the REAL world is what they experience on "the other side", and that THIS world is the illusion.  My hypothesis is that THIS world is the one that is "a sophisticated virtual reality encounter."  For instance in this world "separation" is so evident and universal that nobody questions it, yet "oneness" rather than separation is reported by many NDEers to be the reality. 

13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

It's so weird. I hear a lot of people that had an NDE talking about a contract. It's just scary how similair those stories are.

If you are consistently getting the message that YOU have a contract, and that message is coming to you from multiple sources (NDEs being one of them), then imo God wants to make sure THAT message is impressed upon you, and imo you DO have a contract. 

13 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yes that's why i don't wanna discuss the NDE's about hell on this topic. Because those stories are straight up depressing. People with a depression might not wanna hear those. 

Somewhere in the ballpark of 1 out of 7 NDE's include a dark or hellish component (according to researcher and 3-time experiencer P.M.H. Atwater), but it is temporary.  In many if not most cases at some point the person shifts their attention/awareness/thoughts/words/actions, whatever, to a spiritual energy level that is too high for the hell to contain.  (In other cases they are moved out of the hellish environment without there being an obvious reason.)  Very often the deliberate shift they make is towards Christ.  One man reported repeatedly reciting as a simple prayer "Jesus loves me this I know".  A woman reported singing "Away in a Manger" (an English-language Christmas carol for children). 

In my experience this SAME technique works here on Earth as well!  When we are experiencing our own private hell (because of fear or shame or loneliness or whatever), we can choose to shift our energy and thereby change our experience.  We can do it by deliberately shifting our attention into one of the highest truths we know or can conceive of.  Here is a possible example:  A person seeking to shift their energy towards the Light might say, either silently or out loud:  "I am loved, and I am Love."  (The rationale for this being:  Our core essence is made of the same stuff God is, and the Bible teaches that God is Love.)  We might even extend this thought to be inclusive of someone we are in conflict with:  "You are loved, and you are Love."

Now there may be instances where a person's best efforts to shift their energy towards the Light seem to produce no results.  Assuming they don't have a belief that is blocking them from the Light, imo this would be a case of doing an "isometric spiritual exercise".  Keep at it, maybe making a few adjustments, because you ARE building towards a shift even if you cannot yet SEE it.   

In my opinion.

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by manol

[Dario_M]

12 hours ago, manol said:

 

If you are consistently getting the message that YOU have a contract, and that message is coming to you from multiple sources (NDEs being one of them), then imo God wants to make sure THAT message is impressed upon you, and imo you DO have a contract. 

I didn't had any messages that came to me to tell me that i have a contract. There isn't anything comming from any sources EXCEPT from the sories i've heard about NDE's from so far. Wich i looked up myself. That i have a contract myself i sure believe i was just curious what the Bible Book of Mormon Doctrines or other revelations phrases (whatever is out there) tells about a possible contract we all have apparently.

12 hours ago, manol said:

Somewhere in the ballpark of 1 out of 7 NDE's include a dark or hellish component (according to researcher and 3-time experiencer P.M.H. Atwater), but it is temporary.  In many if not most cases at some point the person shifts their attention/awareness/thoughts/words/actions, whatever, to a spiritual energy level that is too high for the hell to contain.

No those people shout out to God in their desperation and when they're lucky Jesus Christ pulls them out the pit of hell. But it's not a guarantee. Sometimes people can scream what they want but nobody helps them.

If you end up in hell (and with hell i mean plain hell, not the celestial kingdom) You're in big problems. So far, that has been very clear to me by listening to those stories and to see those people crying while they tell them. As if they had sabstained a trauma from that experience. Those stories are the worst. Those stories scare me till the bone let me tell you. 💀

12 hours ago, manol said:

  

In my experience this SAME technique works here on Earth as well!  When we are experiencing our own private hell (because of fear or shame or loneliness or whatever), we can choose to shift our energy and thereby change our experience.

Well...i can't. 

12 hours ago, manol said:

  We can do it by deliberately shifting our attention into one of the highest truths we know or can conceive of.  Here is a possible example:  A person seeking to shift their energy towards the Light might say, either silently or out loud:  "I am loved, and I am Love."  (The rationale for this being:  Our core essence is made of the same stuff God is, and the Bible teaches that God is Love.)  We might even extend this thought to be inclusive of someone we are in conflict with:  "You are loved, and you are Love."

That's what Jesus Christ say indeed. And God. And even Angels say that. 

I don't experience anything like that here on earth. Well...yesterday in church i experienced it from the people there though. And i had taken a bit to much of my medication. So it felt like a really nice dream there in my ward. I felt save. I have talked to many nice people. 

But normaly i don't feel much love from anyway. Not even from my family these days. Only judgements. 

12 hours ago, manol said:

Now there may be instances where a person's best efforts to shift their energy towards the Light seem to produce no results.  Assuming they don't have a belief that is blocking them from the Light, imo this would be a case of doing an "isometric spiritual exercise".  Keep at it, maybe making a few adjustments, because you ARE building towards a shift even if you cannot yet SEE it.   

In my opinion.

 

Yeah. Most people don't believe in anything. In my opinion...that's what this world makes so sad. Lonely. And that is why there's so much senseless violence going on. It seems to get worse as well. We really need Jesus Christ. We all. 

[manol]

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

those people shout out to God in their desperation and when they're lucky Jesus Christ pulls them out the pit of hell. But it's not a guarantee.

But those experiences were all temporary.  Those people are not there NOW.   Hells are temporary.

 

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

If you end up in hell (and with hell i mean plain hell, not the celestial kingdom) You're in big problems. So far, that has been very clear to me by listening to those stories and to see those people crying while they tell them.

Did those people come back and change their lives?  YES!!  And THAT experience was the "kick in the pants" they needed. 

Obviously YOU do not need an experience like that.  You really have nothing to fear.