webbles Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: So you believe in listening to what the scriptures and latter-day prophets teach about modesty. Cool, then I guess you agree with how the church defines and explains modesty in the article on the church’s website we’ve been discussing, which includes the information about certain types of clothing, tattoos, and piercings being immodest, that is no longer in the Strength of Youth pamphlet but is obviously still God’s modesty standard. Or alternatively your weaving your web into any even bigger tangle. So you also agree that men should stop wearing white shirts that are see-through at church and that men should also stop going around topless? Since, per the modesty article, it says we should "[avoid] clothing that is revealing" (a see-through white shirt is revealing and going topless is definitely revealing). 3
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 24 minutes ago, webbles said: So you also agree that men should stop wearing white shirts that are see-through at church and that men should also stop going around topless? Since, per the modesty article, it says we should "[avoid] clothing that is revealing" (a see-through white shirt is revealing and going topless is definitely revealing). Show me were the leaders of the church have interpreted that line in the article the way you are. -1
Popular Post MustardSeed Posted July 13, 2023 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: No. God just has a different standard for men and women since they are different. I’m afraid you are more a victim of societal standards than you realize. For the first time in history, women are saying STOP SEXUALIZING OUR BODIES. We are experiencing a lot of success but it’s slow going. I’m asking you to stop Sexualizing women’s bodies. This has been going on forever. It’s not a Godly attribute to sexualize women’s bodies at all. Women and men should be sexual in private, equally in power, and we women would like to walk down the street without cat calls, without the condescension of being told we need to cover up heads shoulders knees and toes , knees and toes, knees and toes. You are representative of the problem we face DAILY whether or not we are in bootie shorts or prairie dresses. Until you start to see the light you will be THE problem for us. You are an easy target. 5
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: I’m afraid you are more a victim of societal standards than you realize. For the first time in history, women are saying STOP SEXUALIZING OUR BODIES. We are experiencing a lot of success but it’s slow going. I’m asking you to stop Sexualizing women’s bodies. This has been going on forever. It’s not a Godly attribute to sexualize women’s bodies at all. Women and men should be sexual in private, equally in power, and we women would like to walk down the street without cat calls, without the condescension of being told we need to cover up heads shoulders knees and toes , knees and toes, knees and toes. You are representative of the problem we face DAILY whether or not we are in bootie shorts or prairie dresses. Until you start to see the light you will be THE problem for us. You are an easy target. What complete and utter nonsense. Those who tell women that they should wear skimpy clothing in order to be hot, sexy, fit in, or whatever are the one’s sexualizing women, not those who say that this is wrong and that women are truly beautiful when they dress modestly. Edited July 13, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal -1
bsjkki Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: What complete and utter nonsense. Those who tell women that they should wear skimpy clothing in order to be hot, sexy, fit in, or whatever are the one’s sexualizing women, not those who say that this is wrong and that women are truly beautiful when they dress modestly. No. It is you. You are telling women how to dress and what to wear regardless of their intent in choosing the clothing. So, it is you are sexualizing and policing women's bodies. 3
MustardSeed Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 21 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: What complete and utter nonsense. This is so insulting to me. I’m done with this conversation. 3
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, bsjkki said: No. It is you. You are telling women how to dress and what to wear regardless of their intent in choosing the clothing. So, it is you are sexualizing and policing women's bodies. Baloney -1
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: This is so insulting to me. I’m done with this conversation. Gee, I sure am terribly sorry that you feel insulted that I called you out on your ridiculous false accusation against me. Edited July 13, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal
webbles Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Show me were the leaders of the church have interpreted that line in the article the way you are. The For the Strength of the Youth used to say those lines specifically about young women. Now, the For the Strength of Youth doesn't even mention it and the modesty section on the website doesn't give any gender. That means those lines are for both genders. So men should avoid "revealing and sexually suggestive clothing, which includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, and shirts that do not cover the stomach" and other "clothing that is revealing." Going topless is absolutely revealing and sexually suggestive. Wearing a shirt that is see-through is also revealing. How else would you interpret these changes? 4
webbles Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: What complete and utter nonsense. Those who tell women that they should wear skimpy clothing in order to be hot, sexy, fit in, or whatever are the one’s sexualizing women, not those who say that this is wrong and that women are truly beautiful when they dress modestly. I agree that there a women (and men) who tell women (and men) to wear skimpy clothing in order to be hot, sexy, fit in, or whatever. And those women and men are sexualizing women. So those women and men who are telling the women what to wear should stop. But this also cuts both ways. Women and men who say that women should wear less skimpy clothing in order to be hot, sexy, fit in, or truly beautiful are also sexualizing women. A man who walks up to strange woman and tells her she should wear shorter shorts because she would look hot is just as bad as a man who walks up to a strange woman and tells her she should wear longer shorts because she would look hot. Both are ignoring the woman and just thinking about her clothing and her sexuality. 4
bluebell Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: This is so insulting to me. I’m done with this conversation. He can dish it but he can't take it. It could be his ideas on double standards bleeding into his real life interactions, since he seems to believe that he deserves to be treated with more respect than he treats others. 3
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, webbles said: Women and men who say that women should wear less skimpy clothing in order to be… truly beautiful are also sexualizing women. No, not at all.
Popular Post bluebell Posted July 13, 2023 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, webbles said: I agree that there a women (and men) who tell women (and men) to wear skimpy clothing in order to be hot, sexy, fit in, or whatever. And those women and men are sexualizing women. So those women and men who are telling the women what to wear should stop. But this also cuts both ways. Women and men who say that women should wear less skimpy clothing in order to be hot, sexy, fit in, or truly beautiful are also sexualizing women. A man who walks up to strange woman and tells her she should wear shorter shorts because she would look hot is just as bad as a man who walks up to a strange woman and tells her she should wear longer shorts because she would look hot. Both are ignoring the woman and just thinking about her clothing and her sexuality. Both have objectified her and turned her into a sex object. One wants to show that sexual object off and the other wants to cover that sexual object up but both men see her as a sexual object that she should cater to. 5
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, bluebell said: He can dish it but he can't take it. Baloney 1
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 Just now, bluebell said: Both have objectified her and turned her into a sex object. Nope. Teaching people how to be modest is not sexualizing them. It’s desexaulizing them.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 21 minutes ago, webbles said: The For the Strength of the Youth used to say those lines specifically about young women. Now, the For the Strength of Youth doesn't even mention it and the modesty section on the website doesn't give any gender. That means those lines are for both genders. So men should avoid "revealing and sexually suggestive clothing, which includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, and shirts that do not cover the stomach" and other "clothing that is revealing." Going topless is absolutely revealing and sexually suggestive. Wearing a shirt that is see-through is also revealing. How else would you interpret these changes? I interpret the change to the strength of youth pamphlet while leaving the original teaching intact on the website to be appeasing those who were offended by the higher standards.
Popular Post bsjkki Posted July 13, 2023 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) It’s the girls being forced to wear long pants on a hike ‘for safety’ when the boys wear shorts and strip off their shirts. It’s at girl camp forcing the girls to wear capris two inches below the knee because there are priesthood leaders attending. It’s a mother calling her yw leaders saying her daughters will not attend a swimming activity because they were told no cleavage snd for her daughters that meant no swimsuit option for her well endowed daughters. It’s being told your daughter must wear a t shirt over her swimsuit at girls camp. The FTSOY was changed for a reason. *true stories @webblesSorry…misquote. Edited July 13, 2023 by bsjkki 5
MiserereNobis Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 I’m a bit confused. @Grug the Neanderthal, aren’t you arguing against the most recent teachings of your apostles by appealing to former teachings? I don’t know the ends and outs of all the pamphlets and such, but I think that’s against Mormon doctrine, right? The current prophet supersedes all the previous? Whose views are in alignment with current teaching? Perhaps there’s a deeper issue here: can current LDS leaders overrule past ones? (I think I know @JLHPROF’s position after all these years) 1
bsjkki Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 10 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Nope. Teaching people how to be modest is not sexualizing them. It’s desexaulizing them. You would fit in well in Afghanistan.
Popular Post bluebell Posted July 13, 2023 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2023 11 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Nope. Teaching people how to be modest is not sexualizing them. It’s desexaulizing them. Yep. Teaching girls that their shoulders and belly buttons need to be covered because men have a sexual response to them, when they never viewed those body parts to have any sexual connotation before, is sexualizing girls. 7
Calm Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 58 minutes ago, bluebell said: Yep. Teaching girls that their shoulders and belly buttons need to be covered because men have a sexual response to them, when they never viewed those body parts to have any sexual connotation before, is sexualizing girls. It is the very definition of sexualizing to attach a sexual meaning to part of the body that serves no inherent sexual purpose. Edited July 13, 2023 by Calm 4
webbles Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: I interpret the change to the strength of youth pamphlet while leaving the original teaching intact on the website to be appeasing those who were offended by the higher standards. But the original teaching isn't intact. Here is what For the Strength of Youth used to say: Quote Immodest clothing includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and other revealing attire. Young women should wear clothing that covers the shoulder and avoid clothing that is low-cut in the front or the back or revealing in any other manner. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. All should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. Always be neat and clean and avoid being sloppy or inappropriately casual in dress, grooming, and manners. Ask yourself, “Would I feel comfortable with my appearance if I were in the Lord’s presence?” Do not disfigure yourself with tattoos or body piercings. If girls or women desire to have their ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear only one pair of modest earrings. Here is what the Modesty section on the site says: Quote Central to the command to be modest is an understanding of the sacred power of procreation, the ability to bring children into the world. This power is to be used only between husband and wife. Revealing and sexually suggestive clothing, which includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, and shirts that do not cover the stomach, can stimulate desires and actions that violate the Lord’s law of chastity. In addition to avoiding clothing that is revealing, we should avoid extremes in clothing, appearance, and hairstyle. In dress, grooming, and manners, we should always be neat and clean, never sloppy or inappropriately casual. We should not disfigure ourselves with tattoos or body piercings. Women who desire to have their ears pierced should wear only one pair of modest earrings. If you compare the two, the text is almost identical. But the gender specific language (except for earrings) has been removed. The lines "Young women should wear clothing that covers the shoulder and avoid clothing that is low-cut in the front or the back or revealing in any other manner. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance." are gone. The teaching is definitely focusing more on modesty for both genders, not just women. It is giving a standard that is universal for both men and women. 3
Popular Post webbles Posted July 13, 2023 Popular Post Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Nope. Teaching people how to be modest is not sexualizing them. It’s desexaulizing them. Would you consider it to be desexualizing if women told you to stop going topless at the swimming pool because you are more handsome wearing a swim top? Or if a woman in church came up to you and said that you need to change your shirt because she can see your garments through it? Is that desexualizing you? What if you were told that there were women at the swimming pool or at the church that were being sexually attracted to you because they could see your bare chest or through your see-through shirt? You were giving them impure thoughts and need to stop being a sexual man around them. 6
The Nehor Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Nope. Teaching people how to be modest is not sexualizing them. It’s desexaulizing them. How about you listen to the people that it actually impacts? Have you ever been told to dress more modestly or that your appearance is distracting or that you are walking pornography? You don’t know what you are talking about. 2
The Nehor Posted July 13, 2023 Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: I interpret the change to the strength of youth pamphlet while leaving the original teaching intact on the website to be appeasing those who were offended by the higher standards. Then I assume you personally only wear clothing that would completely cover the original garment design to avoid falling to worldliness?
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