Rain Posted July 11, 2023 Posted July 11, 2023 46 minutes ago, webbles said: I'm wondering how your beliefs on modesty translate into real life for men? Growing up for me, there were hardly any rules for men compared to women. At that time, I was actually a little jealous (I like rules and structure). I felt that the women got all these good instructions while us men had to blindly figure them out. Do you have something that polices men's dress as much as it polices women's? Great question. I'm going to have to ask my husband about his experiences now.
Calm Posted July 11, 2023 Posted July 11, 2023 8 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: thought you were the one advocating for using the scriptures as the modesty standard and not the teachings of the modern leaders of the church. Weren’t you trying to do just that by bringing up Adam and Eve and Moroni and the other scriptures you quoted? No.
Calm Posted July 11, 2023 Posted July 11, 2023 2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: So you can’t tell me how your beliefs on modesty actually translate into real life. Got it. She has in essence given you a book on her beliefs and actions, but if you do not open its covers and read it to understand, not much she can do about that. 4
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 6 hours ago, webbles said: I'm wondering how your beliefs on modesty translate into real life for men? Growing up for me, there were hardly any rules for men compared to women. At that time, I was actually a little jealous (I like rules and structure). I felt that the women got all these good instructions while us men had to blindly figure them out. Do you have something that polices men's dress as much as it polices women's? Men and women are different. Some things are typically more of an issue for men, while other things are more of an issue for women. I think modesty is a bigger issue for women. Having said that, I agree with what the church has said about modesty for men, including avoiding tattoos, piercings, and extreme styles in clothing and appearance. In my opinion this would include wearing shirts with inappropriate or suggestive words or images, sagging ones pants and exposing one’s underwear, having a Mohawk, dying one’s hair green, etc. Covering the garment and not removing it unless it actually is necessary would be another.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 5 hours ago, Calm said: She has in essence given you a book on her beliefs and actions, but if you do not open its covers and read it to understand, not much she can do about that. No, she hasn’t. When I asked her to give me an actual example that demonstrates her beliefs she answered by saying to "search your heart." That doesn’t explain anything. It’s a non answer.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 On 7/10/2023 at 9:41 AM, Calm said: On 7/10/2023 at 6:47 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said: but since we live in mortality, God would clearly have a standard for modesty for his mortal children though, right? He does. Is anyone here arguing that he doesn’t? It is given in the scriptures multiple times. I have quoted them above No, you weren’t arguing that we should use the scriptures to tell us God's standard on modesty? 🤔
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Rain said: I have really tried. I'm not sure how to communicate that better. As members of the church we are taught to pray. We are taught to look on the heart. We are taught to search our heart. We are taught to soften our heart. It all goes with searching our heart about our intentions of being modest. For me searching my heart comes intuitively. I'm constantly looking at it and thinking about my motivations, how I feel, what my thought patterns are. I realize that not all are that way. Have you ever wanted to say something to your wife or friend, but searched your heart to see if what you wanted to say would be said out of selfishness or if it would be said out of helping your marriage be stronger? Or perhaps you had a choice to make about your work environment and you searched your heart to see if you were considering doing that out of irritation for your coworker or to make the place better? Or both. Or perhaps someone told you to do something and you felt like saying no. Did you ever look at why you are saying no? Did you find it was because you don't like being told what to do or maybe you found your priority was time spent with your family. This is what I am talking about with modesty. If you have searched your heart in those situations then apply it to modesty. If you have never done those kinds of things I'm not sure how to explain it better. Each time I have answered on this thread I have done that. I don't want my frustration to be standing in the way of our communication so I have looked to see how I was feeling and didn't write till my heart was in the right place. I just don't know how to communicate what I am saying any better. So as long as an LDS woman who has been correctly taught what modesty means has “searched her heart" and believes that when she wears booty shorts and a crop-top she is perfectly modest then in God’s eyes she is? Do you think that an LDS woman who honestly searches her heart and prays and asks God if he considers it to be modest for her to wear booty shorts and a crop-top will get the answer by the Holy Ghost that God considers her wearing these skimpy clothes to be completely modest? Edited July 12, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal
Calm Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: I think modesty is a bigger issue for women. Why? 1
Calm Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 50 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: No, you weren’t arguing that we should use the scriptures to tell us God's standard on modesty? 🤔 Nope.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Calm said: Nope. Your very own words suggest otherwise. Why are you refusing to own them? Edited July 12, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Calm said: Why? Because of personal observation.
Calm Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) Just now, Grug the Neanderthal said: Because of personal observation. You mind read? Or do women just tell you all about their struggles with modesty? Edited July 12, 2023 by Calm 1
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Calm said: You mind read? Or do women just tell you all about their struggles with modesty? ?
The Nehor Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Men and women are different. Some things are typically more of an issue for men, while other things are more of an issue for women. I think modesty is a bigger issue for women. LOL! Nope. 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Having said that, I agree with what the church has said about modesty for men, including avoiding tattoos, piercings, and extreme styles in clothing and appearance. In my opinion this would include wearing shirts with inappropriate or suggestive words or images, sagging ones pants and exposing one’s underwear, having a Mohawk, dying one’s hair green, etc. Covering the garment and not removing it unless it actually is necessary would be another. Most of that has nothing to do with modesty. 3
webbles Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: Because of personal observation. Could it be because you don't notice all the times men are being immodest because they don't affect you like an immodest woman does? There have been several women on this topic who've mentioned things that men do that are alluring just like an immodest woman is alluring to you. Shouldn't those men be considered immodest for causing suggestive thoughts in women? 4
Calm Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Most of that has nothing to do with modesty. Seems like it’s more in line with scriptural modesty standards, imo, in terms of drawing attention to oneself, though the scriptures tend to focus on doing this with displays of wealth, so I could reconsider my response if you explained the disconnection in your view. Which makes me wonder why the emphasis isn’t on the same standards for women in his view. Edited July 12, 2023 by Calm 1
Calm Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: ? What personal observations tell you modesty is a bigger issue for women? Are they personally telling you they have big issues with it or something else? If it is simply you applying your own modesty standard and judging women’s appearances and extrapolating modesty issues from that, then since you haven’t demonstrated that your standard of modesty is appropriate for both women and men, I believe you have failed to demonstrate women actually have bigger issues with modesty big time. My experience with members would suggest men do since I have seen a significantly larger amount of men and boys in the Church with their shirts off and/or shoulders bared than I have women over the years. Same with shorts.*** Plus I have seen tons of men in sexually alluring suits or white shirts and dress slacks (I love dress white shirts, especially the slightly stiff all cotton ones; stiff collars that frame the neck and bring out the jawline are the best) where I haven’t seen a lot of women with midriffs and backs exposed. ***In fact, when my brother came home from his mission, I saw him the second day home out in the driveway throwing baskets in shorts that exposed his garments by an inch or so at the bottom hemline. And since he had been wearing similar shorts as had his church friends for years previous to his mission, by Grug’s apparent standard he and all his male friends had long been immodest. Granted, once he had time to go shopping he fixed that, thank goodness! Edited July 12, 2023 by Calm 4
Popular Post Rain Posted July 12, 2023 Popular Post Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said: So as long as an LDS woman who has been correctly taught what modesty means has “searched her heart" and believes that when she wears booty shorts and a crop-top she is perfectly modest then in God’s eyes she is? Do you think that an LDS woman who honestly searches her heart and prays and asks God if he considers it to be modest for her to wear booty shorts and a crop-top will get the answer by the Holy Ghost that God considers her wearing these skimpy clothes to be completely modest? My husband and I are big fans of John Lund's "mean what you say and say what you mean". Part of the concept is that when someone says something you take them for what they said and not what you think they might have meant. So when I asked you the question some time ago of why you wanted to know and you said it was to understand my point of view I took you at your word. Then I spent a lot of time trying to explain my point of view and told you how your questions didn't apply to what I was saying for a number of reasons. Finally I spent a lot of time trying to come up with examples to help you understand how my practical advice worked and you ignored it all. I see no evidence that you even tried to figure out how my practical advice works. I can no longer trust that you want to understand my point of view and because of that it is not worth it to me to continue a conversation where nothing seems to be getting communicated. This isn't a cop out before you accuse me of that. I would just rather spend my time with others who will respect what I have to say by listening and considering it. Edited July 12, 2023 by Rain 5
The Nehor Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, webbles said: Could it be because you don't notice all the times men are being immodest because they don't affect you like an immodest woman does? There have been several women on this topic who've mentioned things that men do that are alluring just like an immodest woman is alluring to you. Shouldn't those men be considered immodest for causing suggestive thoughts in women? BINGO!
The Nehor Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Calm said: Seems like it’s more in line with scriptural modesty standards, imo, in terms of drawing attention to oneself, though the scriptures tend to focus on doing this with displays of wealth, so I could reconsider my response if you explained the disconnection in your view. Which makes me wonder why the emphasis isn’t on the same standards for women in his view. Because it is conflating too many things. On one hand it is supposedly about not arousing lust, also about not standing out, and also about not being ostentatious about wealth. The only one called out in scripture is the third one. 4
Raingirl Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: LOL! Nope. Most of that has nothing to do with modesty. Not a single mention of his beloved “booty shorts”.
Calm Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 2 hours ago, Raingirl said: Not a single mention of his beloved “booty shorts”. And there are plenty of men out there in them. 1
The Nehor Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Calm said: And there are plenty of men out there in them. I sent you those photos IN CONFIDENCE!
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 6 hours ago, Rain said: My husband and I are big fans of John Lund's "mean what you say and say what you mean". Part of the concept is that when someone says something you take them for what they said and not what you think they might have meant. So when I asked you the question some time ago of why you wanted to know and you said it was to understand my point of view I took you at your word. Then I spent a lot of time trying to explain my point of view and told you how your questions didn't apply to what I was saying for a number of reasons. Finally I spent a lot of time trying to come up with examples to help you understand how my practical advice worked and you ignored it all. I see no evidence that you even tried to figure out how my practical advice works. I can no longer trust that you want to understand my point of view and because of that it is not worth it to me to continue a conversation where nothing seems to be getting communicated. This isn't a cop out before you accuse me of that. I would just rather spend my time with others who will respect what I have to say by listening and considering it. I have 100% respected what you have to say, sincerely listened and tried to understand. Summarizing what I think I understand from your answers and then asking follow up questions to try and better understand your beliefs is doing just that. Refusing to answer my very simple and direct question is not because I’m not listening, it’s simply because you don’t want to answer it. Which makes your excuse for not answering a cop out. Literally all you need to say to answer my question is yes or no. Or yes or no and then follow it up with an explanation. Yet you refuse to do it over and over again.
Grug the Neanderthal Posted July 12, 2023 Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Calm said: Seems like it’s more in line with scriptural modesty standards I thought you didn’t believe in using the scriptures as God’s standard for modesty? My what a tangled web this has become. Edited July 12, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal
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