Modesty for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think we need to define what “real” is before we can answer that question.

Oh, I think you guys have already done that right here before our eyes.

Reality is underware. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by mfbukowski
Fun

[Grug the Neanderthal]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

Why are you asking?

I want to understand your position better. You said that sometimes it’s completely modest for a Latter-day Saint woman who has been correctly taught and understands what modest dress is to wear booty shorts and a crop-top if she isn’t trying to elevate herself over others but other times it isn’t. So I’m curious under what circumstances you consider it to be completely modest and under what circumstances you don’t.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

You are apparently assuming “correctly taught” means taught modesty by the modesty rules you believe in.

No, by correctly taught I mean correctly taught. Rain agrees with the church’s definition, so we can work with that for now.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

I am reluctant to force modern modesty standards into an ancient text…as all should be imo when dealing with ancient scripture.

I thought you were the one advocating for using the scriptures as the modesty standard and not the teachings of the modern leaders of the church. Weren’t you trying to do just that by bringing up Adam and Eve and Moroni and the other scriptures you quoted?

It appears that you changed your mind awfully quickly. What standard of modesty are you using now?

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I want to understand your position better. You said that sometimes it’s completely modest for a Latter-day Saint woman who has been correctly taught and understands what modest dress is to wear booty shorts and a crop-top if she isn’t trying to elevate herself over others but other times it isn’t. So I’m curious under what circumstances you consider it to be completely modest and under what circumstances you don’t.

"Modesty is an attitude of propriety and decency in dress, grooming, language, and behavior. If we are modest, we do not draw undue attention to ourselves. Instead, we seek to “glorify God in [our] body, and in [our] spirit”"

When one's attitude/spirit, or heart as I posted about several times in this thread, is in the right place one is being modest.  When it isn't, then the person isn't being modest.

I have consistently said it is not about the clothes. It is about the heart. 

In trying to understand you are trying to have me give you specific situations that tie to clothing you don't believe is modest. The reason you may be confused is that neither I, nor the definition above, is defining modesty by those clothes, but by the attitude, spirit or heart. 

 

 

[Vanguard]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t see anything either.   

Ha! I looked too but could not find the notorious Tacenda either! Drats! ;o

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Ha! I looked too but could not find the notorious Tacenda either! Drats! ;o

Probably for the best.

tacenda pl (plural only)

1. things that are not to be spoken about or made public

2. things that are best left unsaid

🤣

[Vanguard]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

Probably for the best.

tacenda pl (plural only)

1. things that are not to be spoken about or made public

2. things that are best left unsaid

🤣

Good grief. I had no idea it meant that. Nicely chosen handle... : )

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Good grief. I had no idea it meant that. Nicely chosen handle... : )

Me either! I laughed when I saw it.  Perfect timing.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

"Modesty is an attitude of propriety and decency in dress, grooming, language, and behavior. If we are modest, we do not draw undue attention to ourselves. Instead, we seek to “glorify God in [our] body, and in [our] spirit”"

When one's attitude/spirit, or heart as I posted about several times in this thread, is in the right place one is being modest.  When it isn't, then the person isn't being modest.

Okay, but what is the practical application of this in your opinion when it comes to wearing booty shorts and a crop-top?

[Rain]

24 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Okay, but what is the practical application of this in your opinion when it comes to wearing booty shorts and a crop-top?

To check where your heart is.

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, Rain said:

To check where your heart is.

It's also a great practical application for receiving personal revelation and learning how to "hear Him", which the church has been hyper focused on lately.

[MustardSeed]

Wearing a two piece swim suit , booties or a tube top every day for a week can do wonders to remove the mystique and power from what for some can be sexual intensity around such clothing. 
 

I admit that in my youth, these types of clothing choices sparked sexual awareness for me - I believe because I was taught in church that I was going to feel those things in response to shoulders and knees and legs and waists.  (Girls only, for the record.)

Now, to me there is nothing sexual at all about wearing a two piece swimsuit. It stirs not a single loin for me. For me, it is about comfort and identity exactly the same way the jeans I’m wearing today are about comfort and identity.  
I don’t wear one piece anything. I don’t wear jumpers, I don’t wear dresses I don’t wear one piece garments. I prefer a top and a bottom that can be removed separately for bathroom purposes.

I wear short shorts when I cycle. I also wear a very snug tank top when I cycle. It is most comfortable for me to wear something that doesn’t have anything around my armpit because I sweat a lot when I ride. It’s tight so that the wind doesn’t blow and hinder speed, doesn’t make a distracting noise or slap against my skin.

I do not consider myself immodest.  I would not attend church in this attire. That would be inappropriate and attention seeking.

To me, modesty has everything to do with appropriateness to the situation, being mindful of what other people are doing, and not distracting them from the purpose of the event, and being mindful not to try to be the center of attention for what I’m wearing. My relationship with God is intact all the while.

this is my opinion only. I recognize that it does not fit with Gruggs version of modesty.  It sounds as though Grugg operates from a literal interpretation, and I can respect that. I do not wish to change Gruggs point of view. 
 

I believe that there is lots of room for personal determination of how to behave in my life beyond the black-and-white directions created by man inspired by God. I believe that if God himself were cycling alongside me, he would not have any problem with my attire. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

To check where your heart is.

So you can’t tell me how your beliefs on modesty actually translate into real life. Got it.

[MustardSeed]

29 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So you can’t tell me how your beliefs on modesty actually translate into real life. Got it.

I think I just did? 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Ha! I looked too but could not find the notorious Tacenda either! Drats! ;o

Yes, you missed out on so much!

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Good grief. I had no idea it meant that. Nicely chosen handle... : )

I remember seeing the word tacenda by googling and whatever I put in must have brought it up. Back then I was secretly hiding my faith crisis and knowing things about the early history of the church that I thought no one really knew, because when I found out about Joseph Smith's polygamy when it popped up on my screen with his wives while searching for something else, maybe church related.  I immediately felt everything went in slow motion and stood up and walked across the street to speak with my neighbor who was outside. Whom I knew very well and asked if she knew about it. She immediately said that it isn't true but anti stuff. Her mother was an anti of another faith and told her many things that she thought were wrong.

And when I asked my visiting teachers about it and if they knew, the one said she didn't want to hear anything more and wanted to keep her testimony. So from then on my lips were sealed except for my husband who thought I was getting Alzheimer's like my mother.

I tell you it was a horrible time for a few years, to drive on my street and look at the homes and think that I knew something no one else did, or maybe they did, but felt like I was the only one. So therefore my handle.  

But hey, it's right there in The Saints book now, yay! Now I feel less lonely and found a whole network of those that went through the same thing that could understand, and then this board was a life saver to speak freely about it.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Tacenda

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So you can’t tell me how your beliefs on modesty actually translate into real life. Got it.

I have really tried. I'm not sure how to communicate that better. As members of the church we are taught to pray.  We are taught to look on the heart.  We are taught to search our heart.  We are taught to soften our heart.  It all goes with searching our heart about our intentions of being modest.

For me searching my heart comes intuitively.  I'm constantly looking at it and thinking about my motivations, how I feel, what my thought patterns are. I realize that not all are that way.

Have you ever wanted to say something to your wife or friend, but searched your heart to see if what you wanted to say would be said out of selfishness or if it would be said out of helping your marriage be stronger?

Or perhaps you had a choice to make about your work environment and you searched your heart to see if you were considering doing that out of irritation for your coworker or to make the place better? Or both.

Or perhaps someone told you to do something and you felt like saying no.  Did you ever look at why you are saying no?  Did you find it was because you don't like being told what to do or maybe you found your priority was time spent with your family.

This is what I am talking about with modesty.  If you have searched your heart in those situations then apply it to modesty.  

If you have never done those kinds of things I'm not sure how to explain it better.  Each time I have answered on this thread I have done that.  I don't want my frustration to be standing in the way of our communication so I have looked to see how I was feeling and didn't write till my heart was in the right place.  I just don't know how to communicate what I am saying any better.

 

[Rain]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I remember seeing the word tacenda by googling and whatever I put in must have brought it up. Back then I was secretly hiding my faith crisis and knowing things about the early history of the church that I thought no one really knew, because when I found out about Joseph Smith's polygamy when it popped up on my screen with his wives while searching for something else, maybe church related.  I immediately felt everything went in slow motion and stood up and walked across the street to speak with my neighbor who was outside. Whom I knew very well and asked if she knew about it. She immediately said that it isn't true but anti stuff. Her mother was an anti of another faith and told her many things that she thought were wrong.

And when I asked my visiting teachers about it and if they knew, the one said she didn't want to hear anything more and wanted to keep her testimony. So from then on my lips were sealed except for my husband who thought I was getting Alzheimer's like my mother.

I tell you it was a horrible time for a few years, to drive on my street and look at the homes and think that I knew something no one else did, or maybe they did, but felt like I was the only one. So therefore my handle.  

But hey, it's right there in The Saints book now, yay! Now I feel less lonely and found a whole network of those that went through the same thing that could understand, and then this board was a life saver to speak freely about it.

Edited 25 minutes ago by Tacenda

Makes sense.  I had in my head a line from a movie and was doing the search to see if an image or clip came up.  I think it must have been "Towanda" that I was thinking of which is very different! Lol

Edited July 11, 2023 by Rain

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Okay, but what is the practical application of this in your opinion when it comes to wearing booty shorts and a crop-top?

I think hyper focusing on what a woman wears, can lead to unwanted obsessions about their bodies. And could lead to who knows where. I remember reading a post on MDDB about children in another country that on a daily basis saw women scantily dressed maybe even topless on billboards etc. Maybe the poster saw it while on their mission, but memory isn't serving right now. Back to the point, the children grew up not sexualising the female body. It was nothing to them, except maybe their next meal if they were breast feeding.

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

Makes sense.  I had in my head a line from a movie and was doing the search to see if an image or clip came up.  I think it must have been "Towanda" that I was thinking of which is very different! Lol

I am embarrassed that you had to read through my now edited post about it. Thanks for surviving it, lol. 

[Rain]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I am embarrassed that you had to read through my now edited post about it. Thanks for surviving it, lol. 

So what you are saying is that some of it is tacenda? 😁 

I will edit. Done.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Rain

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

So what you are saying is that some of it is tacenda? 😁 

I will edit. Done.

Holy cow, good one Rain! 😆

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So you can’t tell me how your beliefs on modesty actually translate into real life. Got it.

I'm wondering how your beliefs on modesty translate into real life for men?  Growing up for me, there were hardly any rules for men compared to women.  At that time, I was actually a little jealous (I like rules and structure).  I felt that the women got all these good instructions while us men had to blindly figure them out.  Do you have something that polices men's dress as much as it polices women's?

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Okay, but what is the practical application of this in your opinion when it comes to wearing booty shorts and a crop-top?

Look, if you want to wear booty shorts and a crop-top just do it. Go for it! You do you!