Modesty for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden

[Grug the Neanderthal]

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That is now what was said.

That’s exactly what was said. There’s no other logical conclusion. 

16 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You really should cool off with the “gotcha” stuff.

It’s not gotcha stuff. People are claiming that I’m crazy (gaslighting) for my observation about what Calm and the gal pals have being doing because there hasn’t been any public support. One even accused me of lying. So the admission by one of the gal pals that what I said is true is indeed a critical second witness that needs to be pointed out if there’s any hope of getting Calm and the other gal pals to recognize the error of their ways and hopefully correcting it. 

After all don’t we want this board to be a place we’re people are comfortable expressing old fashioned views on church teachings and civilly and constructively discussing a wide range of viewpoints instead of it being an echo chamber?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So the admission by one of the gal pals that what I said is true i

What I know is true is that some male posters avoid modesty threads. I have now clarified my statement twice. Please don’t misrepresent what I said again. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

How is that a concession? Was it disputed?

?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

I never denied it, so it’s not actually a concession.  I was denying that I rejected all the teachings of our leaders on modesty unless they were the same as in the scriptures.  You may not have meant that, but that was what I understood you to mean and that was what I was denying.

And there’s the gaslighting again. Come on Calm it doesn’t have to be this way. 

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

That’s exactly what was said. There’s no other logical conclusion. 

Wrong.

9 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It’s not gotcha stuff. People are claiming that I’m crazy (gaslighting) for my observation about what Calm and the gal pals have being doing because there hasn’t been any public support. One even accused me of lying. So the admission by one of the gal pals that what I said is true is indeed a critical second witness that needs to be pointed out if there’s any hope of getting Calm and the other gal pals to recognize the error of their ways and hopefully correcting it. 

They didn’t say that what you said was true. They were talking about previous modesty discussions.

10 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

After all don’t we want this board to be a place we’re people are comfortable expressing old fashioned views on church teachings and civilly and constructively discussing a wide range of viewpoints instead of it being an echo chamber?

When those views hurt women and girls? No, I don’t want this place to be one where people are comfortable sharing those views.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Grug the Neanderthal said:

And there’s the gaslighting again.

Wrong.

[bsjkki]

Sometimes, due to these topics and threads and the misogynist and stubborn positions taken by some men, I have a more difficult time with trusting male leaders interactions with my daughters. It’s a sad byproduct of these discussions. 
 

I was elated with the updated guidance of President Nelson and the Twelve for their updated guidance. It seams some will refuse to align themselves with a policy that has changed. Some will cling to tradition and deny the higher concepts now taught in FTSOY. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, I don’t want this place to be one where people are comfortable sharing those views.

Oh, so you do want an echo chamber where people aren’t allowed to express old fashioned views that are still on the church’s website. This is another admission by one of the gal pals (you) that you are actively trying to make people unwilling to express old fashioned views. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

Sometimes, due to these topics and threads and the misogynist and stubborn positions taken by some men, I have a more difficult time with trusting male leaders interactions with my daughters. It’s a sad byproduct of these discussions. 

Accusing men of misogyny. Another classic tactic of the gal pals.

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

I was elated with the updated guidance of President Nelson and the Twelve for their updated guidance. It seams some will refuse to align themselves with a policy that has changed. Some will cling to tradition and deny the higher concepts now taught in FTSOY.

Since the church still defines and explains modesty the same way as before on the website, the removal of the specifics on what is and isn’t modest from the FTSOY obviously wasn’t an update or higher concept. The standard and expectations haven’t changed a bit. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

After all don’t we want this board to be a place we’re people are comfortable expressing old fashioned views on church teachings and civilly and constructively discussing a wide range of viewpoints instead of it being an echo chamber?

Most definitely. I think it is unfortunate that when several of us want to be part of a conversation and express our own views rather than letting someone else speak for us it can feel like we are ganging up because we often have similar points of view.  It is understandable to me, but it is not what really happens in most cases if by ganging up one means to join a conversation to take on one person as one force.

If one means by ganging up being supportive of each other, then I do believe we do that, but I don’t see that as a bad thing.  I am pretty sure church leaders have asked for members to join discussions and support each other so our voices are heard.  I can also see how that may feel like ganging up, but being supportive of others who are trying to do good in your view is a good thing in my view.

I think if people approach the controversial subjects with awareness that lots of people will want to speak up and try and avoid grouping posters together as one voice, they may be able to diminish the sense of being ganged up on.  This works sometimes for me, sometimes not (not needed for in this forum as posters are such individuals here).  I have been at family reunions where I am a minority of one with an opinion though.   

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

And there’s the gaslighting again. Come on Calm it doesn’t have to be this way. 

You are right, it doesn’t. You could choose to believe I know my own thoughts better than you do and it was just miscommunication.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Calm

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Accusing men of misogyny. Another classic tactic of the gal pals.

I think this says it all. How sad. 
 

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They were talking about previous modesty discussions.

24 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

She admitted that the gal pal gang gangs up on men who express old fashioned views taught by the church when it come to modesty and that the gal pals have been able to effectively silence them doing it. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think this says it all. How sad. 
 

 

Yes it sad that you and others resort to accusing men who express support for church teachings as misogynists. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Grug the Neanderthal]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Most definitely. I think it is unfortunate that when several of us want to be part of a conversation and express our own views rather than letting someone else speak for us it can feel like we are ganging up because we often have similar points of view.  It is understandable to me, but it is not what really happens in most cases if by ganging up one means to join a conversation to take on one person as one force.

If one means by ganging up being supportive of each other, then I do believe we do that, but I don’t see that as a bad thing.  I am pretty sure church leaders have asked for members to join discussions and support each other so our voices are heard.  I can also see how that may feel like ganging up, but being supportive of others who are trying to do good in your view is a good thing in my view.

I think if people approach the controversial subjects with awareness that lots of people will want to speak up and try and avoid grouping posters together as one voice, they may be able to diminish the sense of being ganged up on.  This works sometimes for me, sometimes not (not needed for in this forum as posters are such individuals here).  I have been at family reunions where I am a minority of one with an opinion though.   

Look I’m sure that you may not see the ganging up that you and your gal pals do the same way that those who you gang up on do, but I would encourage you to look inward and see what you should change instead of digging in.

[Calm]

Gaslighting is lying and lying is a sin. Why would I and anyone else here risk their soul to “win” a discussion? A meaningless win if only achieved by lying. 
 

It boggles my mind that anyone who knows me even a little would think I would be that foolish. Or anyone else here. 

[bsjkki]

24 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

She admitted that the gal pal gang gangs up on men who express old fashioned views taught by the church when it come to modesty and that the gal pals have been able to effectively silence them doing it. 

Your use of ‘gal pals’ to describe the female perspective on this board is dismissive. We don’t gang up but we express as individuals our varied perspectives on issues. I comment on threads with issues I care about. Other women also care about this issue. These threads usually end in a stalemate and some choose not to engage. 
 

I held off engaging with you because imo,  it is pointless. Your mind is set. Your heart closed. But as the thread continued I felt I again would enter the fray in a pointless endeavor. You continuously misrepresent, even after clarification, the views of many women. 
 

You call us ‘gal pals.’ It’s so insulting. Is this how you treat your sister at church? Do you talk over them in ward council? Do they sit quietly because they know it’s pointless to speak up? 
 

I find your use of ‘gal pals’ misogynistic. IMO, it reveals your opinion of females in general.  

Edited July 14, 2023 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

For the record another old timer on this board just messaged me stating that he is in agreement with my description of what Calm and her gal pals are doing. I won’t reveal who it is, but he stated that he will no longer express his views on certain subjects because of this.

I believe this. 

But not because of gaslighting and all of that other stuff.  It's because we didn't agree with him on a subject that affects women and he didn't like the disagreement. A lot of older men have no idea how to handle when women won't either agree with them or just be quiet about it.  They are used to having the final say, to being seen as authorities on most subjects (especially religious ones), and to having the church back their views.  That's all changed and I'm sure it's very uncomfortable on some subjects.   

I don't really blame them or hold it against them.  They were raised in a different era and I'm sure that makes some church topics difficult to navigate.  But neither do I feel badly that their views no longer align with church teachings on these subjects.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Women tend to speak up on issues which involve women’s issues. Who knew?

Exactly.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Men then tell the women that the women are wrong about the impact of this issue that almost entirely impacts women.

Thankfully, there aren't many men who still do this, and while I don't want anyone's voice to be silenced just because they see things differently than I do, I'm not going to be quiet just so they can feel more in control.

[bsjkki]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thankfully, there aren't many men who still do this, and while I don't want anyone's voice to be silenced just because they see things differently than I do, I'm not going to be quiet just so they can feel more in control.

Exactly.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Well Calm and the other gal pals, here’s another witness from one of your own. She just admitted that it’s what you do and that it’s highly effective. 

There haven't been any witnesses yet--it's just been you claiming things--but I'm really ok if it's all true.  And I say that sincerely and not being snarky.  While I've mostly just been having fun with you on here (because I find it's better to try to do that than have negative feelings about you and there hasn't been a lot said to take seriously), if there are other posters who secretly agree with you but don't want to say it outloud for whatever reason, ok.  Fair enough.

Speaking only for myself, I know that my views are not at all controversial so it doesn't give me pause to hear that some who are don't like the changes the church has been making, and don't like the changing roles of women, are upset with me or others for advocating for them.  There are members who miss the old days, and the old ways and old teachings, but that really has nothing to do with me.  That's between them and the church.  

I hope they can work it out and I think they will because except for a few posters (who have multiple sock puppets because they keep getting banned and who are probably some of your "witnesses"), I respect every long time poster on here, regardless of what they think of me.

 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yes, they should. I have observed their gaslighting from day one, but didn’t want to call them out. I was hoping that they would be civil and knock it off. But enough is enough. 

I don’t say this out of spite. I say it so that hopefully they’ll take an honest look at themselves, search their hearts, and then stop doing it. Because with their current gaslighting it’s impossible to have a productive discussion with them or anyone else. 

I don't think you took my reply the way I intended it. In the years past a few guys or males get in hot water for their comments about how women should feel in these threads, and they aren't women! 

So listen up fellas and believe a woman who says how it feels to feel sexualized or less than or loved for what they look like or wear or put in their place where you think they belong or need to take a back seat or be the second or third fiddle or stay quiet and look pretty or care for everyone before themselves or you think they better not put it out there or they're a slut (clothes wise) and the list goes on and on and on. Lay off the freakin women or girls! Leave them the hell alone when it comes to how they look or dress. Look at yourselves men. Look at yourselves and respect a woman for her choices even when they may make them for the wrong reasons. Let it be. Women who feel that their looks are the only thing important and not enough without the right look are harmed and are left to feel less than in the human race. 

Not specific to you Grug necessarily I guess.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't think you took my reply the way I intended it. In the years past a few guys or males get in hot water for their comments about how women should feel in these threads, and they aren't women! 

So listen up fellas and believe a woman who says how it feels to feel sexualized or less than or loved for what they look like or wear or put in their place where you think they belong or need to take a back seat or be the second or third fiddle or stay quiet and look pretty or care for everyone before themselves or or you think they they better not put it out there or they're a slut (clothes wise) and the list goes on and on and on. Lay off the freakin women or girls! Leave them the hell alone when it comes to how they look or dress. Look at yourselves men. Look at yourselves and respect a woman for her choices even when they may make them for the wrong reasons. Let it be. Women who feel that their looks are the only thing important and not enough without the right look are harmed and are left to feel less than in the human race. 

Not specific to you Grug necessarily I guess.