Modesty for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden

[Grug the Neanderthal]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you not saying in the above you thought I was for the scriptures as the modesty standard and against using the teachings of leaders for the same?  If not, feel free to explain what you meant.

What meant was that you were against the teachings from the former strength of youth pamphlet and the current article on the church’s website that explain that it’s immodest to wear specific types of clothing and instead kept pointing to the “scriptural standard of modesty” which you claimed was in opposition to what the leaders of the church teach. 

[MustardSeed]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

When I met my wife to be, I looked into her eyes, and saw light and kindness, and certainly attraction. Of course I noted that she was female, and felt sexual attraction as well, but my she seemed to be a very " nice girl" in the first 5 minutes.

Over a year later we married according to God's law.

If she was a man, we would be good friends and nothing more.

Perhaps I don't know your definition of "sexualizing behaviors".

I do in one sense, as objectivizing women as objects.

That is evil. Is that what you call "sexualizing behaviors"?

That term seems innacurate to me, sexual objectivizing seems like a much better term.

Yes “sexual objectivizing”works- but also- 

tacendas post fits here. When I first used to attend my sons water polo or swim meets, I was uncomfortable seeing the boys in their speedos.  I was sexualizing the boys - meaning when I saw them in their speedos all I could think about was “ gosh these boys are wearing speedo’s and I’m so uncomfortable” because honestly, I had never seen boys in speedos and I was uncomfortable with seeing so much skin and the only thing being covered was gonads and butt cheeks, and it made me think about gonads and butt cheeks. When I walked into the pool area the only thing I was thinking about was gonads and butt cheeks.  I was sexualizing the boys.  After about four or so events, I started seeing the boys. I started seeing athletes. Now, when I see somebody in a speedo, I see a person,  I don’t see gonads and butt cheeks. I’ve matured.
 

The other day, I saw somebody post a picture of a bunch of volleyball players with a ton of comments that were suggestive. It was interesting, I thought to myself gosh, I just saw volleyball players. Yet other people were sexualizing the athletes.

 

When I see a girl in a tank top, what leads my thoughts about her is determined by her attitude behavior and activity. 

 

IMO we “sexualize” somebody when we assume that somebody is trying to be sexy or when we identify somebody from a sexual point of view without considering the context, attitude or behavior. 
 

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Your gal pals and other friends on here are backing you up. No surprise there, they always do. But I can assure you that I’m not making this up. I’m most definitely not the only one who has observed what you and your gal pals are doing in regards to the gaslighting and ganging up. Multiple people have reached out to me who have made similar observations. 

You and your gal pals have driven most of the conservative old school voices either into silence or into leaving the board altogether. Haven’t you noticed that you have very few people voicing similar views  to the ones I hold around here anymore? It’s not because you converted them to your side. It’s be because you drove them away, just like you’re trying to do to me, whether consciously or subconsciously. 

The guy pals need to listen up then!

[The Nehor]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is Smac one of my gal pals too?  I will be happy to claim him!  

I wanna be a gal pal!

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

What meant was that you were against the teachings from the former strength of youth pamphlet and the current article on the church’s website that explain that it’s immodest to wear specific types of clothing and instead kept pointing to the “scriptural standard of modesty” which you claimed was in opposition to what the leaders of the church teach. 

If you are limiting my rejection to check listing, that would be much more accurate, but still not what I am saying.  I do not define the scriptures as having a “standard” of modesty.  It is inaccurate for you to say I am for or against a certain standard when I don’t believe it exists.  That seems too intentional, too checklist, too limiting for what modesty might be for what I see taught in the scriptures.  And it seems to limiting to use that phrase to apply to what God thinks about modesty.  I am not sure there is an actual standard of modesty as it appears you are using it (something you can use to measure or compare to).  I believe there are principles of modesty with which we can examine our own behaviour.

Can you point to what you see as me saying the scriptural verses on modesty were in opposition to what leaders teach please?

Edited July 14, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Your gal pals and other friends on here are backing you up. No surprise there, they always do. But I can assure you that I’m not making this up. I’m most definitely not the only one who has observed what you and your gal pals are doing in regards to the gaslighting and ganging up. Multiple people have reached out to me who have made similar observations. 

You and your gal pals have driven most of the conservative old school voices either into silence or into leaving the board altogether. Haven’t you noticed that you have very few people voicing similar views  to the ones I hold around here anymore? It’s not because you converted them to your side. It’s be because you drove them away, just like you’re trying to do to me, whether consciously or subconsciously. 

There was no gaslighting. You keep using that word but I don’t think you know what it means.

”Lots of people support me. They are just out of frame cheering me on!”

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The guy pals need to listen up then!

Yes, they should. I have observed their gaslighting from day one, but didn’t want to call them out. I was hoping that they would be civil and knock it off. But enough is enough. 

I don’t say this out of spite. I say it so that hopefully they’ll take an honest look at themselves, search their hearts, and then stop doing it. Because with their current gaslighting it’s impossible to have a productive discussion with them or anyone else. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

If you are limiting my rejection to check listing, that would be much more accurate.

Can you point to what you see as me saying the scriptural verses on modesty were in opposition to what leaders teach please?

Did you or did you not take issue with them saying that it was immodest to wear certain types of revealing clothing? I don’t really have any interest in digging up the specific quote of yours. I think it’s pretty obvious that you oppose this teaching of theirs.

[bsjkki]

Women tend to speak up on issues which involve women’s issues. Who knew?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

For the record another old timer on this board just messaged me stating that he is in agreement with my description of what Calm and her gal pals are doing. I won’t reveal who it is, but he stated that he will no longer express his views on certain subjects because of this.

[The Nehor]

Just now, bsjkki said:

Women tend to speak up on issues which involve women’s issues. Who knew?

Men then tell the women that the women are wrong about the impact of this issue that almost entirely impacts women.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

For the record another old timer on this board just messaged me stating that he is in agreement with my description of what Calm and her gal pals are doing. I won’t reveal who it is, but he stated that he will no longer express his views on certain subjects because of this.

*Notates this on the official record*

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I wanna be a gal pal!

You always have been in my heart.

Let’s make it official!

[Grug the Neanderthal]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There was no gaslighting. You keep using that word but I don’t think you know what it means.

I know exactly what gaslighting is and Calm and her gal pals are masters of it. 

[bsjkki]

6 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

For the record another old timer on this board just messaged me stating that he is in agreement with my description of what Calm and her gal pals are doing. I won’t reveal who it is, but he stated that he will no longer express his views on certain subjects because of this.

We know. It ends badly for them every time. 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I know exactly what gaslighting is and Calm and her gal pals are masters of it. 

You are starting to doubt your own sanity then?

Edited July 14, 2023 by The Nehor

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Did you or did you not take issue with them saying that it was immodest to wear certain types of revealing clothing? I don’t really have any interest in digging up the specific quote of yours. I think it’s pretty obvious that you oppose this teaching of theirs.

I do oppose a part of what they teach.  But from what I could tell, you were accusing me of rejecting their teachings on modesty across the board.  I think there is much more to the teaching of modesty by leaders than just types of clothing.  I think it is very easy to focus on that as “modesty” because it is so easy to identify, but just as there is more to Jesus’ command to love our neighbour than sharing cookies with them, babysitting their kids or helping them in their yard, somethings frequently mentioned in examples on “how to” in my youth lessons, I see modesty as a much larger discussion than possible “revealing clothing”.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

We know. It ends badly for them every time. 

Well Calm and the other gal pals, here’s another witness from one of your own. She just admitted that it’s what you do and that it’s highly effective. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are starting to doubt your own sanity then?

Sometimes yes. Sometimes I have to read back through previous comments to make sure that I’m not crazy. 

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Well Calm and the other gal pals, here’s another witness from one of your own. She just admitted that it’s what you do and that it’s highly effective. 

That is not what was said.

You really should cool off with the “gotcha” stuff. You aren’t good at it.

Edited July 14, 2023 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Sometimes yes. Sometimes I have to read back through previous comments to make sure that I’m not crazy. 

I don’t believe you.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do oppose a part of what they teach

Thank you for conceding this.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Thank you for conceding this.

How is that a concession? Was it disputed?

[bsjkki]

1 minute ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

We’ll Calm and the other gal pals, here’s another witness from one of your own. She just admitted that it’s what you do and that it’s highly effective. 

I admitted nothing of the sort. I know there are posters who will not engage in modesty threads because it is an issue that women care about and don’t back down from discussing. It does end badly because it becomes obvious certain people refuse to listen or even attempt an understanding of this from a female perspective. IMO, it is threatening to some men due to their own weaknesses.  
 

I am grateful the FTSOY changed and returned ‘modesty’ to its truer definition. I think the church recognized harms done by the subjective nature of the guidance that was often defined in ridiculous ways by local leaders.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Thank you for conceding this.

I never denied it, so it’s not actually a concession.  I was denying that I rejected all the teachings of our leaders on modesty unless they were the same as in the scriptures.  You may not have meant that, but that was what I understood you to mean and that was what I was denying.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Calm