Negotiating Non-Negotiables

[Navidad]

In another part of my life I deal with people who have strong beliefs with and about non- negotiables, especially those they find in scripture. Perhaps each of us, in our own belief systems have some. How do you handle your own non-negotiables or those of others when dealing with them or encountering them, especially when manifested in those close to you? I am especially interested in strategies that don't involve put-downs, sarcasm, or dismissal. Is thinking some beliefs are non- negotiable a good thing or perhaps inevitable? How do you deal with it when confronted with other's non-negotiable, especially when different from your own. Thanks so much.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Navidad

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

In another part of my life I deal with people who have strong beliefs with and about non- negotiables, especially those they find in scripture. Perhaps each of us, in our own belief systems have some. How do you handle your own non-negotiables or those of others when dealing with them or encountering them, especially when manifested in those close to you? I am especially interested in strategies that don't involve put-downs, sarcasm, or dismissal. Is thinking some beliefs are non- negotiable a good thing or perhaps inevitable? Thanks so much.

 Could you give us a few examples of what sorts of things you have in mind here?

[Rain]

I have 2 non-negotiables. That God lives and He loves me.  I had one experience after I prayed that showed me that he lives and loves me that I can never doubt.  By extension of that experience and one other experience that was not as strong as the first experience I feel he loves all his children.  That second experience of his love for others I might have been able to later doubt had I not had the first experience, but because of the first experience and the tie between them it is non-negotiable.

Strategies. Hmm.  I never thought of it like strategizing.  It just comes natural from it.  I understand that others have not had my experience so I don't expect others to feel the same.  I also don't tell others that they will get the same answers I would get because they just don't.   I'm not going to tell them they need to pray more or harder to get my experience because that invalidates their own experiences that are real.  

If someone asks me why they don't get my answers I tell them "I don't know" because I don't.  I'm not going to insist they believe in what I do just because I had an experience.  In fact if they share they don't feel the same way, I read the room.  If they express sorrow then I validate that sorrow. If they express there is no God, especially when they share why there is no God then I let them know I can understand why they feel the way they do and say nothing more about my experience because it would be trying to convince them they were wrong and that I am somehow better than them. And that's not true.

I guess my strategies are 1. Empathy (NOT sympathy).  2.Sharing (if wanted) and not trying to convince and 3. Expressing "I don't know"

 

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

 Could you give us a few examples of what sorts of things you have in mind here?

Hi my friend. I guess I can. I hesitate to because I have friends and those I seek to learn from who have a wide range of what they deem as non-negotiables in their lives. Some are religious, some are political, some are cultural or ideological, historical, etc., but all are so important to the person for varying reasons that they cannot, will not, or believe they should not vary from them. My experience (nothing more) is that non-negotiables for folks are sometimes identified as truth, THEE TRUTH, or ABSOLUTE TRUTHS. Once their non-negotiables become either of the last two, dialogue becomes challenging. The variety of possibilities is huge, as huge as the human tendency to create groups, sub-groups, in groups, and out groups.

I speak a lot about certainty. On this board I write a lot about it. I read a lot about it. So, I guess you could say I have a lot of interest in certainty. Yesterday I spoke to a group from El Paso. After the meeting someone said to me that they agreed with me except about the things in scripture that are for them, "non-negotiables." The other day my sister-in-law said the same thing to me in another setting. My wife and I met the other evening with the three members of our bishopric on our back patio. The topic of "non-negotiables" came up from them regarding our (my wife and my) ministry in the ward. So, it seems I am both thinking about and confronted with folk's non-negotiables lately. I anticipate that happening more as I get into my summer travels speaking.

Those aren't necessarily examples, but maybe they will help. We can't discuss political non-negotiables here, but you might imagine what some of them might be. It is possible we all have some in our mindset, because I think they come from the mind or the soul - the repository of will, emotions, memory, etc. - those things that are probably part physiology, spirituality, and life-experiences.  Spiritually - there might be examples in "God exists," God doesn't exist," "Christ lived, died, and rose again," "the specifics of salvation," even perhaps "sola scriptura"- for some. "Just have love" might be one. "Certainty is a sin" - a popular one now in Evangelicalism. Emotional/social - "Identity issues," "social justice," "equity over equality," etc. For my son - "The Tampa Bay Lighting got robbed in their quest for another Stanley Cup!" The idea that "Mexico is a dangerous place to live. We are fools for living here." - No debate about that. "Philosophy is the key to understanding life" And on and one. I hope this helps. I don't mean to limit the options or expand them beyond reason.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Navidad

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

In another part of my life I deal with people who have strong beliefs with and about non- negotiables, especially those they find in scripture. Perhaps each of us, in our own belief systems have some. How do you handle your own non-negotiables or those of others when dealing with them or encountering them, especially when manifested in those close to you? I am especially interested in strategies that don't involve put-downs, sarcasm, or dismissal. Is thinking some beliefs are non- negotiable a good thing or perhaps inevitable? How do you deal with it when confronted with other's non-negotiable, especially when different from your own. Thanks so much.

I have come to appreciate the Lord's example in not condemning the adulterous woman, leaving judgement for later (which in our case means leaving it to the Lord), rescuing her from immediate harm, giving her space ("go"), and inviting her to repent and sin no more.

I once faced a dilemma in dealing with such a non-negotiable, and to boil down the above principles, my answer from heaven concerning what to do with such a person: "Nothing". Except to follow the Lord's example.

Edited April 30, 2023 by CV75

[MustardSeed]

I have close friends and band mates who are very opinionated about their politix and religion.  We have agreed to not discuss any of those things at all under any circumstance. 
for some, it’s harder than others to shut the mouth. Eventually, if they want to maintain a relationship with me, they learn it’s required.

Edited April 30, 2023 by MustardSeed

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi my friend. I guess I can. I hesitate to because I have friends and those I seek to learn from who have a wide range of what they deem as non-negotiables in their lives. Some are religious, some are political, some are cultural or ideological, historical, etc., but all are so important to the person for varying reasons that they cannot or will not or believe they should not vary from them. My experience (nothing more) is that non-negotiables for folks are sometimes identified as truth, THEE TRUTH, or ABSOLUTE TRUTHS. Once their non-negotiables become either of the last two, dialogue becomes challenging. The variety of possibilities is huge, as huge as the human tendency to create groups, sub-groups, in groups, and out groups.

I speak a lot about certainty. On this board I write a lot about it. I read a lot about it. So, I guess you could say I have a lot of interest in certainty. Yesterday I spoke to a group from El Paso. After the meeting someone said to me that they agreed with me except about the things in scripture that are "non-negotiables." The other day my sister-in-law said the same thing to me in another setting. My wife and I met the other evening with the three members of our bishopric on our back patio. The topic of "non-negotiables" came up from them regarding our ministry in the ward. So, it seems I am both thinking about and confronted with folk's non-negotiables lately. I anticipate that happening more as I get into my summer travels speaking.

Those aren't necessarily example, but maybe they will help. We can't discuss political non-negotiables here, but you might imagine what some of them might be. It is possible we all have some in our mindset, because I think they come from the mind or the soul - the repository of will, emotions, memory, etc. - those things that are probably part, physiology, spirituality, and life-experience.  Spiritually - there might be examples in "God exists," God doesn't exist," "Christ lived, died, and rose again," "the specifics of salvation," even perhaps "sola scriptura"- for some. "just have love" might be one. "Certainty is a sin" - a popular one now in Evangelicalism. Emotional/social - "Identity issues," "social justice," "equity over equality," etc. For my son - "The Tampa Bay Lighting got robbed in their quest for another Stanley Cup!" The idea that "Mexico is a dangerous place to live. We are fools for living here." - No debate about that. "Philosophy is the key to understanding life" And on and one. I hope this helps. I don't mean to limit the options or expand them beyond reason.

So here we have examples of things that, on the surface, are immediate turn-offs, things we cannot abide, adopt or do ourselves (like the woman taken in adultery).

Like the scribes and Pharisees, maybe we do abide, adopt and perform these things to a degree, or the very opposite mindset, with equal lack of charity and proper regard for the Lord. So, some introspection is in order. Then, we can still leave judgement to the Lord, rescue them from immediate harm as the case requires, give them space to consider our good-faith example, and invite them to repent and sin no more. This last one is usually irrelevant with the non-negotiables you describe, since they are not necessarily sins.

I think the council approach is superior to the debate approach when minds come together, though it takes more work the further apart we are.

Edited April 30, 2023 by CV75

[Benjamin McGuire]

I would suggest this -

In my experience, non-negotiable issues are not usually fundamental issues - they are built on top of other things. The best way to negotiate these kinds of positions is to get beyond those issues and discuss the more fundamental positions and beliefs that lead to those non-negotiable issues. I tend to try to follow a series of rules for these kinds of engagements (I don't always succeed in keeping them).

First, positions on these kinds of issues are almost never developed ex nihilo. The are almost always conclusions rather than fundamental positions. And if I explain my view on such an issue - not by simply presenting my opinion but rather by showing how I arrive at my position, then we don't have to have a discussion based only on the non-negotiable - we can have a discussion about the ideas that prop those non-negotiable position up (or the ideas that can lead someone to disagree with those positions). I find it helpful to really look inward toward my own reaction to whatever the issue is. How do I respond to it personally? What are my emotional triggers on the subject (if there are any)? Where does my opposition lie. If I have a visceral response to their non-negotiable issue, then I really need to understand where that response comes from. It may not directly help in the discussion at the moment, but, if I cannot articulate the reasons why I believe something, the chances of my having a reasonable conversation on the subject are non-existent. If I succeed in getting someone to understand why I believe what I believe, then the discussion has been successful, whether or not their thinking has moved at all.

Second, in my experience, most of the time non-negotiable issues are presented in a specific way - aimed at providing the most confrontation or rejection of the opposing view. Taken to an extreme, all of these discussions simply fall apart. Rather than confronting such a belief - especially by taking it to an even more extreme position - start by trying to determine how they see their belief working in practice. What are the pragmatic implications of such a belief. Most people who have non-negotiable issues are actually not as extreme as they seem - when given a chance to explain what they actually mean by such a belief rather than giving out the sound-bite version.

Third, in attempting to negotiate these non-negotiable issues, we have to remember that our understanding may not be the only rational (or even the most rational) response to an issue. Their belief may be just as rational, even if it is built on different fundamental beliefs and assumptions. Charity in these discussions goes a long way. And nothing ends any chance of real discussion than direct confrontation over the truthfulness of a principle. Scoring points in an argument never opens minds.

I try to avoid these sorts of non-negotiable belief myself. Many years ago, I found something profound written by Joseph Natoli:

Quote

the problem is not that we might wander and that we therefore would be faced with contesting views none of which can validate itself as The Truth. The problem is that we might elevate some narrative to Truth status and stop wandering. We might invest some observation . . . with full determinate status.

That being said, I think that we all have an obligation to ourselves to examine the things that we believe, and to understand where they come from. And we have to develop a healthy tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity.

[3DOP]

Deleted.

Edited May 1, 2023 by 3DOP

[Navidad]

56 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

I try to avoid these sorts of non-negotiable belief myself. Many years ago, I found something profound written by Joseph Natoli:

Quote

the problem is not that we might wander and that we therefore would be faced with contesting views none of which can validate itself as The Truth. The problem is that we might elevate some narrative to Truth status and stop wandering. We might invest some observation . . . with full determinate status.

That being said, I think that we all have an obligation to ourselves to examine the things that we believe, and to understand where they come from. And we have to develop a healthy tolerance for uncertainty and ambiguity.

Hi my friend: I am wondering if you might have a specific source for this quote? I really like it. It reminds me of a quote by Neils Bohr - "The opposite of a profound truth may be another profound truth" or something like that. I also think you should publish your own book of your own quotes! I would buy that!

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

Hey Navidad...That a good God doesn't put a rational mind in a tomato plant is non-negotiable for me. Any being, even though omnipotent that did that would be bad. Likewise to have put the desires of a dog, with the senses of a dog, rooted to the ground with a dog's head's, and a dog's normal instincts instead of the flower as the "head" that is usual to a vegetable? A being that did that would be bad. Belief and love of God for me has to make Him not only great but also good, especially good. God has to love His own creation...He cannot be a Tormentor of what He makes. A God that makes monsters might be omnipotent, but I would never worship, or recommend worship of a monster maker.       

Like a God who would create a human that is supposed to be self-mobile but some aren’t? I think you are opening a bigger can of worms than you know with this general statement.

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

So...this is my non-negotiable problem with what I think post-baby boomers call gender theory. My brother, believes his own son is male according to material DNA, but is really female in a higher more significant, immaterial sense. Once a devout Protestant like me, my brother now says he is an atheist. I have considered the possible reality that his son, according to biological evidence might be male, but "in spirit, if you will" is female? How terrible it would be if God...if God was bad. All my instincts cry out that it is impossible. Any great God is good. A great God makes no monsters. A good God would not make my brother's son, and a lot of others that way. I might need to tell my brother how I understand his atheism.     

In all the ways we can test God makes these mistakes all the time. Children born without vital organs or organs in the wrong spaces and doomed to a short life of pain and early death. This is a safe place to draw a line because it cannot be tested until someone is dead. I am more cynical. Any time I hear God would not do this or allow that to happen to someone I just want to roll my eyes. If God is good it is not because God always takes steps to prevent cruel and terrible things from happening. He might take such steps sometimes but God does not take them all the time. God allows cruelty in the things we do understand. In one area in which we have no knowledge of someone’s eternal gender we decide God wouldn’t be cruel in that way. It is like a really warped “God of the gaps” argument.

Yes it would be terrible if God was bad. Something being horrible is not a good reason to discount it. I don’t think God is bad but extrapolating limits to the cruelties God will allow or inflict to things we can’t understand seems like wishful thinking. You might just as well say God wouldn’t be so cruel to allow the poor kid to experience dysphoria at all. There is a much higher than standard chance that they will try to kill themselves at some point. Hooray for God’s goodness!

I don’t have dysphoria but I have spent a decent portion of my life wondering why God created a monster like me. I still don’t know.

[Benjamin McGuire]

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi my friend: I am wondering if you might have a specific source for this quote?

This is the source.  I first used this idea with regard to Mormonism back in 2010 in a guest blog I was asked to write for Patheos, which you might also enjoy. While it is sometimes an experience filled with cringes to go back and read things I wrote many years ago, I think that this one has managed to age well.

[Tacenda]

I thought of you while listening to this podcast this morning, I hope this is a good response to your post here. I believe many members believe the one true church is non negotiable, but should it be?

https://atlastshesaidit.org/episode-136-lets-talk-about-the-one-true-church/

Non negotiable to me, is hoping to do no harm. 

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

In another part of my life I deal with people who have strong beliefs with and about non- negotiables, especially those they find in scripture. Perhaps each of us, in our own belief systems have some. How do you handle your own non-negotiables or those of others when dealing with them or encountering them, especially when manifested in those close to you? I am especially interested in strategies that don't involve put-downs, sarcasm, or dismissal. Is thinking some beliefs are non- negotiable a good thing or perhaps inevitable? How do you deal with it when confronted with other's non-negotiable, especially when different from your own. Thanks so much.

Rape and child abuse, murder etc.are non- negotiable "bad"

So in that context what are you talking about?

Somebody tells me rape is ok, - I am walking away silent.

What's your point?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Rape and child abuse, murder etc.are non- negotiable "bad"

So in that context what are you talking about?

Somebody tells me rape is ok, - I am walking away silent.

What's your point?

I think he might be suggesting that there are other non-negotiables that might prevent us from walking away.

For example, the hyper-sexualization of children in the media over the past many years, in a subtle way perhaps, leads those dependent on entertainment (and our society is increasingly more dependent on it) to gradually adopt the not-uncommon notion that consensual sex between adults and minors (at least older minors) is OK, or at least understandable, tolerable or negotiable. Continuing to interact with these neighbors might help change their mindset on this point of morality.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think he might be suggesting that there are other non-negotiables that might prevent us from walking away.

For example, the hyper-sexualization of children in the media over the past many years, in a subtle way perhaps, leads those dependent on entertainment (and our society is increasingly more dependent on it) to gradually adopt the not-uncommon notion that consensual sex between adults and minors (at least older minors) is OK, or at least understandable, tolerable or negotiable. Continuing to interact with these neighbors might help change their mindset on this point of morality.

No thanks, I don’t like talking to libertarians.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No thanks, I don’t like talking to libertarians.

You're supposed to be quiet in libraries anyway.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You're supposed to be quiet in libraries anyway.

[3DOP]

4 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Deleted

 

[3DOP]

 I don't wish to express my opinions. If you see someone else quote me...I retract it.

 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Rape and child abuse, murder etc.are non- negotiable "bad"

So in that context what are you talking about?

Somebody tells me rape is ok, - I am walking away silent.

What's your point?

I have no point. It was just a question. I am terribly tired of being your punching bag.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Navidad

[pogi]

7 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I have close friends and band mates who are very opinionated about their politix and religion.  We have agreed to not discuss any of those things at all under any circumstance. 
for some, it’s harder than others to shut the mouth. Eventually, if they want to maintain a relationship with me, they learn it’s required.

You have a band?

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I have close friends and band mates who are very opinionated about their politix and religion.  We have agreed to not discuss any of those things at all under any circumstance. 
for some, it’s harder than others to shut the mouth. Eventually, if they want to maintain a relationship with me, they learn it’s required.

If you don’t mind, can you share more about your band? Type of music, etc.?

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

You have a band?

Yes🤘🏼

[MiserereNobis]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

You have a band?

Of course out of all of this, this is what you and I respond to 😁