Three Abuse Cases, One Perpetrator

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

People would get their training done if they were not allowed to serve until it was complete. We do need more accountability in the system. 

Agreed. There is zero justification for not requiring proof of completion before working with children.   That this lax approach continues today, even after all the abuse that we KNOW happens, is a sad commentary.   
It seems that lawyering up in cases of abuse with the call-line is a higher priority than prevention.

[T-Shirt]

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

Agreed. There is zero justification for not requiring proof of completion before working with children.   That this lax approach continues today, even after all the abuse that we KNOW happens, is a sad commentary.   
It seems that lawyering up in cases of abuse with the call-line is a higher priority than prevention.

I get notified from the Church directly when the training is due. Is your clerk slow to record your calling?

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

I get notified from the Church directly when the training is due. Is your clerk slow to record your calling?

I just reviewed my emails to see if I ever got a notification.  It looks like I did.  I must have missed it in the swamp of emails.  

This is what it says:

"As part of the Church's ongoing effort to ensure the safety of all children and youth, all adults who work with children or youth are to complete the Protecting Children and Youth training course.

Please take the time to complete this training as soon as possible.  It will take about 30 minutes"

It then provides a link.

Where is the follow up by the bishopric if it isn't completed?  Are they notified if I complete it or not?  Like I said, I was working with the youth for several months with zero follow up or accountability for completing this.  It seems to me that this should be required to complete before working with children.  It was beyond easy for me to slip through the cracks. 

[Vanguard]

My wife and I have been lazy in 're-upping' our certification this year for our Primary callings. We have been reminded twice by the Primary presidency. I'm betting it's quite easy to slip under the radar...

[LoudmouthMormon]

56 minutes ago, pogi said:

Where is the follow up by the bishopric if it isn't completed?  Are they notified if I complete it or not?  Like I said, I was working with the youth for several months with zero follow up or accountability for completing this.  It seems to me that this should be required to complete before working with children.  It was beyond easy for me to slip through the cracks. 

These are all valid questions and observations.  

The thing about predators, is they will always, ALWAYS, find cracks to try and slip through.  If they can't do it in the church, they'll go to the strip mall church down the road.  Or make friends with folks who take kids on nature hikes.  Or hang out in public libraries looking for vulnerable kids.  Or, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL7cFOYSY3Y .  It would be funny, if it wasn't so totally the opposite of funny.

I get the neverending pressure to make this about the church.  Imma keep making it about humans if that's ok with y'all.  

 

[MorningStar]

On 4/18/2023 at 1:55 PM, bluebell said:

According to someone that is in the know who is from the area, multiple members had misgivings about him and did all they could to keep him away from kids. Local leaders didn’t think he was a threat though.

Its horrific.

 

I am the one in the know. My old ward of 12 years. 💔

[MorningStar]

People with very big hearts thought he had autism and that it explained his lack of boundaries. They have a lot to learn about both autism and predators. I feel terrible for everyone involved. He was the only one with bad intentions. He preyed on children and people’s kindness. 

[helix]

5 hours ago, webbles said:

If you were a local leadership and a parent came up to and said "So-and-so seems to be a little weird around kids", what exactly would you do?  I don't see that strong enough suspicion to go to the police.  Maybe I'd talk with the person but if the person was malicious, that really wouldn't be useful either.

The hard part is even trying to help.  Society is in a situation where any hint of child abuse is just a nuclear hot potato. From a civil rights approach, we believe in innocent until proven guilty. As a church, we believe in not pre-judging an individual. As a mob, after any abuse comes to light, those who interacted significantly with this person are often blamed for not preventing the problem from occurring.

In the Brisbee Arizona abuse situation, one of the leaders there fished hard for information because she suspected Paul Adams was abusing the kids. But despite all her best efforts, she got nothing. And she had professional training on this. And for her efforts, she got 1) served a lawsuit for not doing enough and 2) had her name slandered in media when the national AP reporter falsely accused her of covering up the abuse and destroying evidence.

It's terrifying. I strongly believe people should not be judged by rumor. However, if I knew someone was rumored to be abusive, I don't know what I'd do. But I do know I'd be simultaneously terrified of future legal consequences in any interaction I had, while also being terrified of wrongly judging the individual in case they are innocent. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by helix

[Calm]

10 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yes.  So glad to see the issue clearly addressed in the church training:

It's right there in black and white.  No ambiguity.  "Immediately contact legal authorities".  And yeah, the bishop too.

No excuses folks.

Training is often done ; in questioning quite a few people about their wards almost all said that was it.   But the training was not talked about nor was anything followed up on.  I think it’s great the training is required, but we need to do more in getting the attitude that is taught in the training embedded into our culture.  Consequences to leaders who do things the wrong way…and publicize this over and over so leaders get the message.  We are still hanging on to the traditions of past years in many places.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

The thing about predators, is they will always, ALWAYS, find cracks to try and slip through. 

So ignore the cracks we can see since in the end filling them doesn’t really matter?  Because that is what your commentary seems to be heading to.  I assume you don’t mean that, but if you don’t, your message should imo follow more the line of ‘there will always be cracks so we must be vigilant to find the new ones even as we close the old ones’.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, helix said:

As a church, we believe in not pre-judging an individual. As a mob, after any abuse comes to light, those who interacted significantly with this person are often blamed for not preventing the problem from occurring.

There are many positions in between where we could choose to stand.

Quote

strongly believe people should not be judged by rumor. 

In the Redmond case, it wasn’t just rumors though.  And, btw, MS is not one of those just saying “I knew there was something creepy about the guy” once it is made so public.  I saw her concern years ago myself.

——

I agree with your comment about the Brisbane case; the woman who went out of her way to help, her getting sued is a travesty if her description of what happened is accurate (there were no physical signs, just behavioral and no verbal confirmation).  I am unsure about the bishops involved given his other sexually deviant behaviour, including that which got him excommunicated, thinking that should have raised concerns about the confessed abuse of his young daughter.

I want to know if there was communication about the concerns, even if unconfirmed, of the minister with the bishop.  I think he should have sought her out and depending on what she told him, it could have been reported as possible continuing behaviour to authorities since the father had confirmed it happened at least once.

There is another case where the mother is suing the bishop iirc for having her husband turn himself in as it has left her family without support, etc.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, ksfisher said:

For some that would be an incentive not to do it

Assume you are making a joke, but it would actually be a good sign that they would be doing a crap job at their calling, so win win.

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

How is this mandated exactly?  I am the ward music leader but also work in the nursery.  When my wife and I were called to work in the nursery, no one mentioned the training.   I was the one who told my wife about it.  We both procrastinated and worked with children in the nursery for around 4 months before finally completing the training.   No one followed up.  Literally zero oversight or accountability.   It seems that "mandated" is a relative term based on your local ward/leaders. 

There is a report in LCR available to some leaders as to who has taken the training and who needs to take it and have not (or is expired). When I was the stake clerk I could access the report, but now I'm the elders quorum president and cannot. 

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Where is this mandated?

It's mandated in the General Handbook, in section 30.2 ("Extending a Calling"), where it is written:

"If the calling includes working with children or youth, the leader explains that the member will need to complete the children and youth protection training. This training is available at ProtectingChildren.ChurchofJesusChrist.org. The member should complete it within one month of being sustained and every three years thereafter."

It seems to me that leaders need to be reminded from time to time to see to this matter, on an ongoing basis in order to make sure that everyone who needs to receive the training actually receive it.

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

There are many positions in between where we could choose to stand.

In the Redmond case, it wasn’t just rumors though.  And, btw, MS is not one of those just saying “I knew there was something creepy about the guy” once it is made so public.  I saw her concern years ago myself.

Thank you. Because of what my friends were telling me, I was absolutely convinced he was molesting children. He just hadn’t been caught yet. Constant red flags. 

[MorningStar]

If anyone at church headquarters is reading, please consider the following ideas:

1. Anyone who has an annotation on their membership record gets a limited version of LDS tools where they can only see info for their priesthood leaders and ministering brothers and sisters. No names of children or photos visible. There is no reason for the ward pedophile to have people’s addresses.

2. We should not have to wait for a felony to happen to a child before groomers are banned from attending church. If they are warned that their behavior is upsetting people and they continue, they can watch church from home and have sacrament administered at home. (If they’re even worthy to take it.)
 

Our house, our rules. We limit who enters the temple. We can do the same for chapels through no trespass orders or else members can get protection orders that would prevent them from attending church. 

[MorningStar]

7 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This. This happens too often. Happened to me and others on this board. The creep is now a temple worker. I collected evidence from  multiple families (5) of harassing behavior. Grooming of families. A double, secret life. Inappropriately contacting minors and very concerning grooming patterns. He uses untraceable numbers to harass families once they realize he is ‘off.’ He harassed my daughter through a fake account and I nailed him on it immediately. Found the evidence it was him. Other teens confirmed he had fake accounts that he used to contact them.  I did not find a victim of sexual abuse. He ingratiates himself with a family. Is super generous. Offers to babysit. Offers to take the kids on a trip alone with him to give the parents a break. Gets the parent a hotel room so the can get away and then watches the kids. Tells his ‘girlfriends’ son to come to his place instead of going home after school. It goes on and on. I’ve heard he just loves kids because he doesn’t have a family of his own. Leadership knows there have been problems but does nothing to warn families. Shared it all with the Bishop. 
 

My Bishop called Salt Lake and he told me it was an issue between adults. So, he continues using the ward as his hunting ground. 
 

*One of the many reasons I no longer attend that ward. We got our records moved.

That’s so disgusting. I’m sorry. 💔

[Rain]

8 hours ago, ksfisher said:

For some that would be an incentive not to do it

True, but do we really want someone teaching children who is not willing to do it?  Not just for abuse reasons, but just caring enough about their callings/students to do it.

[Rain]

7 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

I get notified from the Church directly when the training is due. Is your clerk slow to record your calling?

Not everyone puts their email in. Some don't regularly read email.  Some miss it because they have 10,000 emails in their box.  Some see it and think "I'll do it on Thursday after work" or "later" and then forget about it.  Some have it going to a spam folder. Some with certain email providers don't get any email from church.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Rain

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

Not everyone puts their email in. Some don't put regularly read email.  Some miss it because they have 10,000 emails in their box.  Some see it and think "I'll do it on Thursday after work" or "later" and then forget about it.  Some have it going to a spam folder. Some with certain email providers don't get any email from church.

I got email from the general church, but nothing from my ward. It’s kind of annoying.

[bsjkki]

I think we should make taking the training part of a calling orientation. New teachers could take the training during 2nd hour their first week in a calling. Some people are really stubborn about online training. If we have them do it at church, if they have tech issues, someone is there to help.

I think we don’t have enough training. I have to take hours and hours of training for the Red Cross. Not allowed to serve until it’s complete. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by bsjkki

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It seems to me that leaders need to be reminded from time to time to see to this matter, on an ongoing basis in order to make sure that everyone who needs to receive the training actually receive it.

It's clearly not a priority.  We seem to be really good with return and report accountability.  We are all about reporting numbers and percentages to see who has completed their assignments.  We hold follow-up interviews to offer encouragement/social pressure to fulfill our duties and make sure that the needs of members are getting met.  We are good at all of this except when it comes to protecting our children.  There is no good excuse or reason.  

If it was a priority, there would be a system in place to verify that the training is completed before a member can work with children. It would be clearly spelled out in the handbook of instructions that no one can work with children until it is completed.  There would be easily accessible tools for the Sunday school Presidency and bishopric to verify that training is completed.  Leaders don't need to be reminded that ordination to priesthood needs to be completed before service in certain callings.  Why?  Because they made that a priority.  

Edited April 20, 2023 by pogi

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think we should make taking the training part of a calling orientation. New teachers could take the training during 2nd hour their first week in a calling. Some people are really stubborn about online training. If we have them do it at church, if they have tech issues, someone is there to help.

I think we don’t have enough training. I have to take hours and hours of training for the Red Cross. Not allowed to serve until it’s complete. 

So true.  I was mandated to take a 4 hour defensive driving course to work where I work.  I don't even drive a car at work, or even to work.  I take trax or ride my bike.  I was hounded until it was completed.  There is software with a list of hours and hours of mandated annual trainings.  We have the same trainings every year.  It is drilled into our brains.  No exceptions.  That's what happens when higher-ups think something is important that we should know. That's what happens when something is seen as a priority.  

[MorningStar]

On 4/18/2023 at 3:13 PM, ttribe said:

I believe all three arrests are between December of 2022 and now, so I can't imagine there would be any trials yet.

First trial is scheduled for May. I’ll be going with friends if permitted. 

[MorningStar]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

So true.  I was mandated to take a 4 hour defensive driving course to work where I work.  I don't even drive a car at work, or even to work.  I take trax or ride my bike.  I was hounded until it was completed.  There is software with a list of hours and hours of mandated annual trainings.  We have the same trainings every year.  It is drilled into our brains.  No exceptions.  That's what happens when higher-ups think something is important that we should know. That's what happens when something is seen as a priority.  

All members should have to do training since that waste of toilet paper molested children during sacrament meeting. 😡 And it should be in person training instead of a video with obvious answers. 

[Tacenda]

21 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This. This happens too often. Happened to me and others on this board. The creep is now a temple worker. I collected evidence from  multiple families (5) of harassing behavior. Grooming of families. A double, secret life. Inappropriately contacting minors and very concerning grooming patterns. He uses untraceable numbers to harass families once they realize he is ‘off.’ He harassed my daughter through a fake account and I nailed him on it immediately. Found the evidence it was him. Other teens confirmed he had fake accounts that he used to contact them.  I did not find a victim of sexual abuse. He ingratiates himself with a family. Is super generous. Offers to babysit. Offers to take the kids on a trip alone with him to give the parents a break. Gets the parent a hotel room so the can get away and then watches the kids. Tells his ‘girlfriends’ son to come to his place instead of going home after school. It goes on and on. I’ve heard he just loves kids because he doesn’t have a family of his own. Leadership knows there have been problems but does nothing to warn families. Shared it all with the Bishop. 
 

My Bishop called Salt Lake and he told me it was an issue between adults. So, he continues using the ward as his hunting ground. 
 

*One of the many reasons I no longer attend that ward. We got our records moved.

Sounds similar to Jan Broberg Felt's kidnapper, Robert Berchtold, from the documentary Abducted in Plain Sight. He served in the Las Vegas temple for 7 years as an ordinance worker. I'm sorry but he's proven time and again that he's not able to repent and no longer cause harm, he shouldn't have been able to receive a temple recommend, IMO. Here's his glowing obit. 🤢 

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/al9shg/bob_berchtold_abducted_documentary_worked_as_an/ 

Robert Ersol Berchtold, age 69, died Friday, November 11, 2005, in Bunkerville, Nevada. He was born February 7, 1936, in Tremonton, Utah to Leonard N. and Lucille Grover Berchtold. When Bob was 3 yrs. Old his father passed away and in 1939 his mother married Joseph Ersol Berchtold who raised Bob and his older brother Don as his own. Bob attended schools in Thatcher and Eden, Utah, Star Valley, Wyo and graduated from Box Elder High School in Brigham City. He served an LDS mission in the Swiss Austrian Mission. He attended BYU, USU and Ricks College. He served in the US Army, stationed in Albuquerque, New Mexico. On June 7, 1961, he married Gail Toyn in the Logan Temple and they had five children. They lived in Albuquerque, NM, Brigham City, Harper and Ogden, Utah. They were later divorced. On July 17, 1990, he married Xxxxxx at the Pine View Reservoir, Utah. They were later sealed in the Las Vegas Temple. They resided in Las Vegas until 1997 when they moved to Logandale, Nevada Bob was blessed with a beautiful singing voice and sang all over Box Elder and Weber County as a young boy. He continued singing throughout his life and brought enjoyment to many through his great talent. He had a great love for the gospel of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and served in many capacities in the Church. He loved the seven years he served as a temple ordinance worker in the Las Vegas Temple. He was a very successful salesman and business owner. He had an out-going and pleasant personality and made friends with all he met. Bob enjoyed camping, 4 - wheeling and anything that involved his family and friends. He and Xxxxx spent their summers in the mountains of Monte Cristo, Utah and loved their time there. Survivors include his wife, Xxxxxx, of Logandale; four sons and one daughter: xxxxxxx of Roy, UT; xxxxxx of Las Vegas, NV; xxxxxx of Henderson, NV; xxxxxx of Ogden, UT; xxxxxx of Farr West, UT; seven grandchildren; his mother, Xxxxxx of Brigham City, UT; two brothers and one sister: xxxxxx currently serving a mission in Australia; xxxxxx of Ogden, UT and xxxxxx of Brigham City, Utah. Funeral service will be held Thursday, November 17, 2005, at 11:30 a.m. at the Gilles Funeral Chapel, 634 East 200 South, Brigham City, Utah. Family will greet friends from 10:00 a.m. to 11:15 a.m. prior to services at the mortuary. Interment will be in the Brigham City Cemetery, where military honors will be accorded by the Combined Veterans of Box Elder County. Funeral services were held in Logandale, Nevada on Tuesday, November 15, 2005.