Rank these statements by level of cultishness

[Hamilton Porter]

From most cultish to least, rank the following statements. And by "cult" I mean a mind control cult, I don't care whether you're a "true Christian."

1. If you leave the church, you won't be happy.
2. If you leave the church, you will burn in hell forever.
3. If you leave the church, watch your back.
4. If you leave the church, feel guilty.
5. If you leave the church, I will shun/disown you and get everyone to do the same.

[Stormin' Mormon]

5, 3, 1, 2, 4

Reasoning:

Generally, I find that imposed consequences in the here-and-now carry more cultish implications.  Thus #3 and #5 rank higher in cultishness.  I ranked #5 higher than #3 because it is a more specific threat than #3.  I waffled a bit, though, because the implied threat in #3 is more serious than the explicit threat in #5.

I put #1 as the higher of the remaining three since the cult could take proactive measures to ensure that the leaver won't be happy ever again.  

The remaining two are fairly interchangeable, since they rely on a moral authority that the leaver has (presumably) rejected.  I put #2 higher since an eternity in Hell is a more severe consequence than feeling guilty for an unspecified period of mortal time.  

[Navidad]

2,1,5,4,3

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

If you leave the church, watch your back.

As in, two guys (both named Big Tony) may be paying you a special visit.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

From most cultish to least, rank the following statements. And by "cult" I mean a mind control cult, I don't care whether you're a "true Christian."

1. If you leave the church, you won't be happy.
2. If you leave the church, you will burn in hell forever.
3. If you leave the church, watch your back.
4. If you leave the church, feel guilty.
5. If you leave the church, I will shun/disown you and get everyone to do the same.

3, 5, 4, 1, 2 -- the order of personal physical or social threat deliverable by the issuer of the statement (3, 5); followed by order of more passive-aggressive emotional abuse (4, maybe 1) followed by an abusive appeal to doctrine (1, 2). Also the further down, the more interpersonal and less organizational the pressure.

[Okrahomer]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

As in, two guys (both named Big Tony) may be paying you a special visit.

That’s Brother Big Tony to you, see.  And don’t you fuget aboudit neither, see.

[The Nehor]

None of those statements are cute.

[Saint Bonaventure]

5 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

From most cultish to least, rank the following statements. And by "cult" I mean a mind control cult, I don't care whether you're a "true Christian."

1. If you leave the church, you won't be happy.
2. If you leave the church, you will burn in hell forever.
3. If you leave the church, watch your back.
4. If you leave the church, feel guilty.
5. If you leave the church, I will shun/disown you and get everyone to do the same.

1. 20th century

2. 16th century

3. 12th century

4. Pretty much the entirety of church history

5. 19th century, in the vicinity of the Jehovah's Witnesses

[bearhoof]

2

5

3

4

1

 

[CV75]

I give these an average ranking of 3.

[CV75]

Can I change my answer?

[LoudmouthMormon]

6 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

From most cultish to least, rank the following statements.

Something I'd like to mention: Besides #1, I've never heard an LDS person utter any of these statements.  

For #1, I'd say it's pretty dang near impossible to swing a dead cat in a room full of LDS without hitting a dozen ppl who have voiced that notion.

 

[Hamilton Porter]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Can I change my answer?

Go ahead 

[BlueDreams]

8 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

From most cultish to least, rank the following statements. And by "cult" I mean a mind control cult, I don't care whether you're a "true Christian."

1. If you leave the church, you won't be happy.
2. If you leave the church, you will burn in hell forever.
3. If you leave the church, watch your back.
4. If you leave the church, feel guilty.
5. If you leave the church, I will shun/disown you and get everyone to do the same.

3, 5, 2, 4, 1

3+5 were high due to immediate consequence and threat. Watch your back sounds like a threat of physical harm, whereas 5 is a threat of emotional/social harm. 1,4,2 are all more abstract emotional future consequence. 2 is more emotionally charged because it assumes major eternal punishment for a decision to leave an organization. 4 is above 1 because it's insisting someone feel something and is shaming. 1 is lighter as it's a misplaced assumption and may hold genuine concern, even if it's still wrong. They also all make a person judge of someone's spiritual well being based on a single choice. Again, also by degree of judgmentalism. 2 was ranked higher that 4/1 because IMHO it can more easily lead to 5 if not also 3. The more a person/organization is willing to condemn someone with a sense of righteousness in doing so, the easier it is for them to also enable or promote more extreme social consequence.

 

With luv,

BD

Edited April 11 by BlueDreams

[mfbukowski]

No. Answering them is cultish.

Edited April 11 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

No. Answering them is cultish.

I'm jonesing for Kool-Aid!

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm jonesing for Kool-Aid!

Ugh…as someone who well remembers that tragedy, I find the comment not funny at all

[Hamilton Porter]

12 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

1. 20th century

2. 16th century

3. 12th century

4. Pretty much the entirety of church history

5. 19th century, in the vicinity of the Jehovah's Witnesses

Thanks for the historical associations, and for the reminder of the fuzzy distinction between religion and cult. This is what I had in mind:

1. If you leave the church, you won't be happy. Mormon
2. If you leave the church, you will burn in hell forever. Evangelical
3.  If you leave the church, watch your back. Wahabbi
4. If you leave the church, feel guilty. Catholic
5. If you leave the church, I will shun/disown you and get everyone to do the same. Jehovah's Witness/Scientology

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'm jonesing for Kool-Aid!

Kool-Aid gets the blame even though it was the generic Flavor-Aid that did the deed. Life is so unfair sometimes.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Ugh…as someone who well remembers that tragedy, I find the comment not funny at all

Apologies. I take the thread to be an ostensibly light-hearted jab at the way some see our Church as a cult and repeat the meme about not drinking the Kool-Aid anymore (which is a misunderstanding of the origin of the phrase -- I think they conflate it with drinking LSD-laced Kool-Aid). 

36 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Kool-Aid gets the blame even though it was the generic Flavor-Aid that did the deed. Life is so unfair sometimes.

Thank you for setting the record straight even further!

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Thanks for the historical associations, and for the reminder of the fuzzy distinction between religion and cult. This is what I had in mind:

1. If you leave the church, you won't be happy. Mormon
2. If you leave the church, you will burn in hell forever. Evangelical
3.  If you leave the church, watch your back. Wahabbi
4. If you leave the church, feel guilty. Catholic
5. If you leave the church, I will shun/disown you and get everyone to do the same. Jehovah's Witness/Scientology

I don't know how else to say it . . . you are perpetuating a stereotype . . . a caricature of Evangelicals. Everything I read in your posts says you are much too intelligent and informed to get caught up in stereotypes, yet here you perpetuate several. I don't know if I have more of a challenge in getting Fundamentalists not to stereotype Mormons or in getting Mormons not to stereotype Evangelicals. The two biases are so similar and mutually challenging!

I can't even imagine as an Evangelical how I would get upset with anyone for leaving a church? Evangelicals are pretty strong in their beliefs that salvation comes through no church, but is a personal decision . . . one by one. I know lots of Evangelicals who attend non-denominational churches for just that reason. I pastored a non-denominational church full of Evangelicals for just that reason. I went to a non-church-affiliated Evangelical university just for that reason.  I served on the international board of directors of a large Evangelical mission organization that was non-denominational. Of the thousands of missionaries working therein, they came from a multitude of different "churches."

As an Evangelical, if someone left the Mennonite church I would say "I understand, in many ways I don't blame you - best in finding another organization that fits you better, or you might just want to find a quiet shady spot under a tree for a while . . . or forever." Whenever I meet someone who has left the LDS church, I would say the same thing to them.

I am an Evangelical. The last time I was a formal member of any church was 1996 or so. That is twenty-seven years ago. During all those years I have never been scolded once by anyone  (except my LDS friends) for not belonging to a church. I identify first as a Christian, second as an Evangelical, and third as a Mennonite, all of those as a member of no church. No one (except for my LDS friends) has ever in all that time questioned my eternal destiny just as I am. As a member of none, I also have more of an open door to speak in a variety in churches which I regularly do, even the occasional sacrament service!

[Hamilton Porter]

3 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I don't know how else to say it . . . you are perpetuating a stereotype . . . a caricature of Evangelicals. Everything I read in your posts says you are much too intelligent and informed to get caught up in stereotypes, yet here you perpetuate several. I don't know if I have more of a challenge in getting Fundamentalists not to stereotype Mormons or in getting Mormons not to stereotype Evangelicals. The two biases are so similar and mutually challenging!

I can't even imagine as an Evangelical how I would get upset with anyone for leaving a church? Evangelicals are pretty strong in their beliefs that salvation comes through no church, but is a personal decision . . . one by one. I know lots of Evangelicals who attend non-denominational churches for just that reason. I pastored a non-denominational church full of Evangelicals for just that reason. I went to a non-church-affiliated Evangelical university just for that reason.  I served on the international board of directors of a large Evangelical mission organization that was non-denominational. Of the thousands of missionaries working therein, they came from a multitude of different "churches."

As an Evangelical, if someone left the Mennonite church I would say "I understand, in many ways I don't blame you - best in finding another organization that fits you better, or you might just want to find a quiet shady spot under a tree for a while . . . or forever." Whenever I meet someone who has left the LDS church, I would say the same thing to them.

I am an Evangelical. The last time I was a formal member of any church was 1996 or so. That is twenty-seven years ago. During all those years I have never been scolded once by anyone  (except my LDS friends) for not belonging to a church. I identify first as a Christian, second as an Evangelical, and third as a Mennonite, all of those as a member of no church. No one (except for my LDS friends) has ever in all that time questioned my eternal destiny just as I am. As a member of none, I also have more of an open door to speak in a variety in churches which I regularly do, even the occasional sacrament service!

Ok thanks for the clarification.

If I replace "church" with abandoning Jesus (e.g. becoming Buddhist, Muslim, Mormon, etc.) what would the reaction be?

[Vanguard]

36 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I don't know how else to say it . . . you are perpetuating a stereotype . . . a caricature of Evangelicals. Everything I read in your posts says you are much too intelligent and informed to get caught up in stereotypes, yet here you perpetuate several. I don't know if I have more of a challenge in getting Fundamentalists not to stereotype Mormons or in getting Mormons not to stereotype Evangelicals. The two biases are so similar and mutually challenging!

I took his list as kind of a light-hearted caricaturizing of each of the faiths - nothing more. : )

[Navidad]

19 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Ok thanks for the clarification.

If I replace "church" with abandoning Jesus (e.g. becoming Buddhist, Muslim, Mormon, etc.) what would the reaction be?

Great question. Unfortunately no simple answer. The first thing that comes to my mind is about the "burn in hell forever" part of your statement. What percentage of Evangelicalism believe in a literal burning hell forever for anyone? Pew does a historically poor job of identifying Evangelicals, for example they usually separate Blacks from Evangelicals which is silly, and they don't separate Fundamentalists from Evangelicals - yet both Fundamentalists and Evangelicals sure do! Let's just agree with Pew that 90% of Evangelicals believe in hell. That doesn't surprise me. Probably 90% of LDS church members believe in outer darkness. Ask them who exactly will go there and the percentages begin to disaggregate. Ask Evangelicals to define hell, who will go there, and why, and the percentages disaggregate in a similar fashion.

I just went out into the kitchen for some almonds to chew on while I type this and conducted a Navidad poll of my wife,  a typical Evangelical - Do you believe in hell? - "Yes!" Do you believe it is a place of burning forever? - "No." How would you define hell? - "A place where God isn't." Is hell a place of eternal suffering? - "Yes, if God isn't there then that is a place I don't want to go to forever." Who will go to hell? - "That is up to judgment day."  Are members of the LDS Church going to hell? "It depends on whether or not they are individually Christians." There you have it - Scientifically valid! 😄  I believe her answers would be typical of an Evangelical.

We have to take into consideration however, doctrinal differences between Evangelicals. For example -- many Evangelicals are in the "once saved always saved camp." That includes reformed Evangelicals, and many on the conservative side of the Evangelical continuum - such as virtually all Evangelical (non-Fundamentalist) Baptists. Picture two people each one holding the other's arm with their hand. If one lets go, are they then separated? No. As long as one (Christ) holds on, even if the Christian doesn't they are still joined together. That view represents a high percentage of Evangelicals, possibly more than half.

For others of a more Arminian persuasion, like Methodists and Anabaptists, it is probable that if a person lets go of Christ, He will let go of them. There is a big doctrinal divide between Arminian and Calvinist Evangelicals on that question. Of course not all Evangelicals identify in one of those two camps, because there are subdivisions that don't involve either. I trust I have confused you sufficiently at this point. What percentage of Evangelicals believe in a burning hell? I would suggest a minority that is growing smaller by the year. What percentage of Evangelicals believe you can "lose" your salvation by anything but blaspheming the Holy Spirit? Probably a minority, holding constant.

Now, what about a Christian who becomes a Buddhist or a Muslim? Now we are right back to which Evangelicals believe a person can lose their salvation? Perhaps even more significantly the "wideness in God's mercy" Evangelicals are growing each year by leaps and bounds. Many folks become Evangelicals from Fundamentalism because they are weary of all the judging. They have decided to leave that to Christ and judgment day. You can count me in that portion of Evangelicalism.  What percentage of Evangelicals believe that if a Christian becomes a Muslim she will burn in hell forever? Adding up all the variations, I would guess about 15% at most. The variables are great - is there a hell? What is hell like? Who will go to hell? Is hell forever? Can a believer lose her salvation? How will Christ judge that person? Isn't Islam an Abrahamic religion? Does that make a difference? Lots of variables.

As far as Mormons go? Huge variance between Evangelicals and Fundamentalists. Fundamentalists tend to be stuck in their biases against Mormons just as Mormons are in their biases against Fundamentalists and probably Evangelicals as well. What percentage of Evangelicals believe members of the LDS church will burn in hell forever? Given all the variable above and add to them the variable of what percentage believe members of the LDS church are not Christians and you probably have a very small percentage of Evangelicals - again 15% or less who believe members of the LDS church will burn in a literal burning hell for not being Christians. One has to work through a ton of variables to get at that point. I believe that each year that percentage, whatever it is, is getting less.

I also believe that there is a percentage of the members of the LDS church who aren't too happy about that! Now there is a question for you! What will happen to LDS identity when they realize that each year or so they are becoming less persecuted as they become increasingly mainstream or  orthodox, or are seen as more orthodox by non-LDS Christians? A percentage of LDS members won't be too happy about that, wouldn't you agree? That has already happened between Catholics and LDS Church members has it not? The same is true between Catholics and Evangelicals as well. Like it or not, and there are many all around the barn (as we Mennonites say) who don't like it that the Christian community is becoming more like a soup and less like a stew. I know what I mean by that - I think? I don't know if you do or not? You may not agree. OK. I have written enough. I hear thunder and that means one of two things. God is mad at me for what I have written and I am in danger of hell; or I better go get the generator ready for when the power goes out! Take care.

 

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

I took his list as kind of a light-hearted caricaturizing of each of the faiths - nothing more. : )

I understand, however since I am in the only group that he thinks assigns someone to burn in hell forever and thus seals their eternal destiny to a place of terrible eternal punishment, it is hard for me to take that light-heartedly, especially when I disagree with that characterization.

Edited April 11 by Navidad