Rank these statements by level of cultishness

[MustardSeed]

22 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I understand, however since I am in the only group that he thinks assigns someone to burn in hell forever and thus seals their eternal destiny to a place of terrible eternal punishment, it is hard for me to take that light-heartedly, especially when I disagree with that characterization.

Don’t take the bait. 

[Hamilton Porter]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Are members of the LDS Church going to hell? "It depends on whether or not they are individually Christians."

I have read some evangelicals with your wife's POV. They're all scholars. Craig Blomberg said Stephen E. Robinson and LDS who believe like him are definitely Christians. But the editors at IVP had to take that out of the book they coauthored because it was too controversial.

Michael Heiser said LDS are saved if they trust wholly in Jesus.

[Hamilton Porter]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

We have to take into consideration however, doctrinal differences between Evangelicals. For example -- many Evangelicals are in the "once saved always saved camp."

Maybe you can clarify this for me. I know more about protestantism than the average LDS, but not as much as you obviously.

According to Calvinists, if you abandon Jesus then you were never saved in the first place.

[Matthew Andreasen]

On 4/10/2023 at 12:34 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

From most cultish to least, rank the following statements. And by "cult" I mean a mind control cult, I don't care whether you're a "true Christian."

1. If you leave the church, you won't be happy.
2. If you leave the church, you will burn in hell forever.
3. If you leave the church, watch your back.
4. If you leave the church, feel guilty.
5. If you leave the church, I will shun/disown you and get everyone to do the same.

5, 3, 2, 4, 1.  If you leave the church, I would love to have you back because you'll still be my friend.

[Navidad]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:55 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

Maybe you can clarify this for me. I know more about protestantism than the average LDS, but not as much as you obviously.

According to Calvinists, if you abandon Jesus then you were never saved in the first place.

It is very difficult to make broad generalizations about any group, whether a denomination or those identified by a particular system of beliefs like "Calvinists." Yes, there are some who interpret several passages in the New Testament (Matthew 7 and Hebrews 6) as indicating that those who fall were never saved. There are also those who do not. The Calvinist camp has a very broad tent with differing interpretations of these and most other passages. I think whenever you are describing non-LDS Christians by any groupings, it is more accurate to say "some Calvinists" or "one interpretation" believed by Calvinists is that. . .  There are Calvinist Presbyterians and Calvinist Baptists. Lots of disagreements between those two! Broad generalizations almost always come apart when one looks at each of these groups as a diverse community with varying beliefs. The same applies when describing Evangelicals, Mainline, or Fundamentalist non-LDS Christians as groups. Most likely the same would go when describing the LDS members of this forum as a group. Take care.

[Navidad]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:49 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

I have read some evangelicals with your wife's POV. They're all scholars. Craig Blomberg said Stephen E. Robinson and LDS who believe like him are definitely Christians. But the editors at IVP had to take that out of the book they coauthored because it was too controversial.

Michael Heiser said LDS are saved if they trust wholly in Jesus.

Michael Heiser is an interesting fellow. He graduated from one of the most fundamentalist institutions of higher education in the US. I like his perspectives and writings a lot. Trusting "wholly" is an interesting concept. I am not sure exactly what that means. Wholly, solely two interesting qualifiers. Best wishes.

[Hamilton Porter]

52 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Michael Heiser is an interesting fellow. He graduated from one of the most fundamentalist institutions of higher education in the US. I like his perspectives and writings a lot. Trusting "wholly" is an interesting concept. I am not sure exactly what that means. Wholly, solely two interesting qualifiers. Best wishes.

Actually, the word he used was exclusively. I just remembered it through my Mormon language filter.

 

[Hamilton Porter]

On 4/11/2023 at 4:47 PM, Navidad said:

Are members of the LDS Church going to hell? "It depends on whether or not they are individually Christians."

I have read some evangelicals with your wife's POV. They're all scholars. Craig Blomberg said Stephen E. Robinson and LDS who believe like him are definitely Christians. But the editors at IVP had to take that out of the book they coauthored because it was too controversial.

Michael Heiser said LDS are saved if they trust wholly in Jesus.

[Hamilton Porter]

Heiser went to the infamous Bob Jones University.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Actually, the word he used was exclusively. I just remembered it through my Mormon language filter.

 

I like this a lot. I will have to correspond with him though. I need to let him know that there are a number of other Evangelicals interacting with members of the LDS church on a whole host of topics. Their degree of surprise is symptomatic of stereotypes of Mormons by Evangelicals. These stereotypes pretty much are mirrored and leveled by LDS stereotypes of Evangelicals. I have been here for six years now and I am not sure I have made a dent in the stereotypes. I have no desire to debate truths; I have a great desire to decrease caricatures, generalizations, and normalizations on all sides. As I think about it, I would have to say that perhaps the stereotypes of the Evangelicals by my LDS friends have been hardened more than those of the Evangelicals toward the members. That may be because Evangelicals by their nature are more open to new ways of looking at things (hence their separation from Fundamentalists) than are many LDS pew members who have never separated from anything. Again, I should clarify that is an observation not a criticism. Best wishes.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Heiser went to the infamous Bob Jones University.

Yes he did, as did a number of my now Evangelical friends. Bob Jones University was and remains a very complex place. It is one of the few places that have consistently over the years joined high academic standards with Fundamentalism and in the past, strong racist perspectives. Bob Jones Jr. was a devotee of Shakespeare. He helped found the NAE and then broke with it because it was too liberal! Take care.

[Teancum]

On 4/10/2023 at 2:34 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

From most cultish to least, rank the following statements. And by "cult" I mean a mind control cult, I don't care whether you're a "true Christian."

1. If you leave the church, you won't be happy.
2. If you leave the church, you will burn in hell forever.
3. If you leave the church, watch your back.
4. If you leave the church, feel guilty.
5. If you leave the church, I will shun/disown you and get everyone to do the same.

These are all cult/mind control items. And your church uses them.  

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I like this a lot. I will have to correspond with him though. I need to let him know that there are a number of other Evangelicals interacting with members of the LDS church on a whole host of topics. Their degree of surprise is symptomatic of stereotypes of Mormons by Evangelicals. These stereotypes pretty much are mirrored and leveled by LDS stereotypes of Evangelicals. I have been here for six years now and I am not sure I have made a dent in the stereotypes. I have no desire to debate truths; I have a great desire to decrease caricatures, generalizations, and normalizations on all sides. As I think about it, I would have to say that perhaps the stereotypes of the Evangelicals by my LDS friends have been hardened more than those of the Evangelicals toward the members. That may be because Evangelicals by their nature are more open to new ways of looking at things (hence their separation from Fundamentalists) than are many LDS pew members who have never separated from anything. Again, I should clarify that is an observation not a criticism. Best wishes.

Evangelicals contrasted with Fundamentalists?

Pardon my ignorance but for me, they are close to being one and the same.

Sola scriptura?

No?

 

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, Teancum said:

These are all cult/mind control items. And your church uses them.  

I can't disagree.

[Hamilton Porter]

39 minutes ago, Teancum said:

These are all cult/mind control items. And your church uses them.  

Technically every organization uses them.

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Technically every organization uses them.

I can't disagree

 

 

[Saint Bonaventure]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:39 PM, mfbukowski said:

Evangelicals contrasted with Fundamentalists?

Pardon my ignorance but for me, they are close to being one and the same.

Sola scriptura?

No?

 

 

According to my software:

Quote

Fundamentalism usually has a religious connotation that indicates unwavering attachment to a set of irreducible beliefs. Christian fundamentalism began in the late 19th and early 20th centuries among British and American Protestants as a reaction to theological liberalism and cultural modernism. Fundamentalists argued that 19th-century modernist theologians had misinterpreted or rejected certain doctrines, especially biblical inerrancy, which they considered the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Fundamentalists are almost always described as having a literal interpretation of the Bible. In keeping with traditional Christian doctrines concerning biblical interpretation, the role of Jesus in the Bible, and the role of the church in society, fundamentalists usually believe in a core of Christian beliefs which include the historical accuracy of the Bible and all of the events which are recorded in it as well as the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.