Outdated sermons- is there benefit to discussing? Denouncing? Denying?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Well in one sentence you said it best. This is why I appreciate you! Thank you.  

I love the level headed-ness of both of you about the church leaders teachings! I think that in the church we believe in personal revelation so it's easy to see why we get so many messages and why we need to get our own revelations about things we're told. 

[CV75]

16 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

This is what I address in the op. I don’t worry about what previous said. What I’m asking for is an honest look at what is the generational impact of such beliefs? I am not concerned at all that outrageous things were said. I mean they sound pretty awful today but it doesn’t damage my testimony at all .  What I’m saying is, how was that sentiment carried subconsciously through generations? Is it worth a look. 

 

This idea of subconscious transmission of religious sentiment through generations, for me, is carried out like a complex game of telephone, except a few generations on, the original players are long dead. I can only imagine a few of the innumerable factors interfering with transmission sufficiently clear for divine approval or grace, they would be any kind of experience any person anyplace in the chain might have. This is why it is ultimately best to get one's own testimony.

[The Nehor]

Was kind of hoping this would involve someone listing three sermons and you pick one to discuss, one to denounce, and one to deny ever happened.

A “Marry, ****, Kill” game.

[MustardSeed]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Was kind of hoping this would involve someone listing three sermons and you pick one to discuss, one to denounce, and one to deny ever happened.

A “Marry, ****, Kill” game.

Be my guest.  Thread is officially dead anyway. Let’s have fun! 😂

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Be my guest.  Thread is officially dead anyway. Let’s have fun! 😂

White Horse Prophecy, To Young Men Only, and the King Follett discourse.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

White Horse Prophecy, To Young Men Only, and the King Follett discourse.

Woo hoo hoo, this should be good. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

White Horse Prophecy, To Young Men Only, and the King Follett discourse.

What are your thoughts on why the King Follett discourses should be denied as ever happening?

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What are your thoughts on why the King Follett discourses should be denied as ever happening?

I didn’t put them in a specific order. I am wondering which category everyone would put King Follett in.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

White Horse Prophecy, To Young Men Only, and the King Follett discourse.

Denying King Follett Discourse ever happened?  Considering it’s a combo of notes of pretty unusual stuff, not all of which makes sense, I can see the appeal, but some good stuff as well. 

Added after reading last post:

Ah….I would put White Horse into Deny (some crazy stuff not well documented, plus always leads to politics which have no desire to discuss) and King Follett into Discuss for the reasons listed above and TYMO into Dumpster (too much baggage to make it worth salvaging, better resources for the topics out there).

Edited January 22, 2023 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

White Horse Prophecy, To Young Men Only, and the King Follett discourse.

White horse -deny. I've only heard vague references from the folks that tend to love weird crazy stuff anyways 

King fillet - discuss. There's some cool stuff in that to suss through 

Young men only -denounce. Current advice is better worded for the small parts that are salvageable...and plenty is just painfully bad. 

[MustardSeed]

Denounce:  That “ponderize” talk. 
It’s not a word!!! How many dollars were made on merch for that talk? Ugh. 
 

Deny: apparently many of Elder Dunns stuff!  Poor guy.  He just likes to tell stories.  Good intentions, bad idea. 
 

Discuss: (though not outdated)  Elder Gongs talk that was used for lessons today.  Good stuff.  Here was a quote (not Gong) shared in class: 

“You cannot defeat your demons if you are still enjoying their company.  “

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

How many dollars were made on merch for that talk?

Not as much as was planned since the son? and his wife had to pull the website (company as well folded iirc) within a day or two due to public outcry. But have seen a few things since with “ponderize” on it. It makes me roll my eyes. I always go to pounding meat when I hear it as it sounds too much like tenderize and pound. I just could not take it seriously because of that even before the PR disaster. 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Calm

[2BizE]

Anyone know why you cannot access Ensign magazines prior to 1970 on the church website?

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Anyone know why you cannot access Ensign magazines prior to 1970 on the church website?

Because they didn’t exist. 
 

It was the Improvement Era. 
 

I loved its paper dolls. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-magazines-celebrate-40-years-of-informing-and-inspiring-church-members?lang=eng

Edited January 22, 2023 by Calm

[2BizE]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because they didn’t exist. 
 

It was the Improvement Era. 
 

I loved its paper dolls. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-magazines-celebrate-40-years-of-informing-and-inspiring-church-members?lang=eng

I guess I meant the general conference addresses prior to April 1971? Are they found anywhere on the church website?

[Hamba Tuhan]

43 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I guess I meant the general conference addresses prior to April 1971? Are they found anywhere on the church website?

No, but instructions on how to find them are:

Quick Tip: Finding Older General Conference Talks

Quote

Looking for older general conference talks? Here are four sources:

1. Conference.ChurchofJesusChrist.org has conference talks back to 1971 in text and more recent talks in video, audio, PDF, and EPUB in many languages. Also in the Gospel Library app.
2. BYU has an LDS General Conference Corpus that lets you search the 24 million words in the 10,000 talks given from 1851 to 2010 in English.
3. The Church History Department has scanned all the general conference reports in English since 1880 and placed them online in the Internet Archive, a nonprofit internet library.
4. BYU’s LDS Scripture Citation Index (scriptures.byu.edu) has the text from conferences from 1941 to the present. You can search them or check references in all conferences to a given scripture passage.

Sorry for the shite formatting, but I wanted to preserve the hyperlinks ...

Edited January 23, 2023 by Hamba Tuhan

[2BizE]

4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Quick Tip: Finding Older General Conference Talks

Sorry for the shite formatting, but I wanted to preserve the hyperlinks ...

Thank you!

[MrShorty]

As a graduate in biology, and observing that evolution/creation debates are still sometimes among the most contentious of debates I see on the internet, I sometimes wish we would disavow Elder McConkie's claim that evolution is one of 7 deadly heresies. It was never a heresy (the church never took and official stance on it, even though Elder McConkie's statement has been used to pretend that the church kind of sort of had a stance), and Elder McConkie's claims of heresy keep getting used to perpetuate the debate.

While we're "canceling" Elder McConkie, the church has also never taken a stance on the doctrine of progression between kingdoms. The universalist in me wishes we would also disavow his claim that progression between kingdoms was a heresy.

The sexology circles I frequent still get "is oral sex a sin in marriage?" questions based on Pres. Kimball's letter from the early '80s. By itself, it is easy enough to help people understand that the church doesn't want to know and God probably doesn't really care.

As I see it, all of these are ever so slowly fading, and I guess we can just let them slowly fade while running damage control when they come up, but it seems like they would die much quicker if we had a clear disavowal. Most issues liek this can fade into history without much difficulty, but these three seem to hang on and continue to generate discussions and debates that would be easier to settle if there was some kind of disavowal.

[MustardSeed]

16 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

As a graduate in biology, and observing that evolution/creation debates are still sometimes among the most contentious of debates I see on the internet, I sometimes wish we would disavow Elder McConkie's claim that evolution is one of 7 deadly heresies. It was never a heresy (the church never took and official stance on it, even though Elder McConkie's statement has been used to pretend that the church kind of sort of had a stance), and Elder McConkie's claims of heresy keep getting used to perpetuate the debate.

While we're "canceling" Elder McConkie, the church has also never taken a stance on the doctrine of progression between kingdoms. The universalist in me wishes we would also disavow his claim that progression between kingdoms was a heresy.

The sexology circles I frequent still get "is oral sex a sin in marriage?" questions based on Pres. Kimball's letter from the early '80s. By itself, it is easy enough to help people understand that the church doesn't want to know and God probably doesn't really care.

As I see it, all of these are ever so slowly fading, and I guess we can just let them slowly fade while running damage control when they come up, but it seems like they would die much quicker if we had a clear disavowal. Most issues liek this can fade into history without much difficulty, but these three seem to hang on and continue to generate discussions and debates that would be easier to settle if there was some kind of disavowal.

Agreed on all three. Important to note that todays RS teacher told us that there is progression after we die.  Not sure if that came from Gongs address- but good timing mrshorty! 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

As a graduate in biology, and observing that evolution/creation debates are still sometimes among the most contentious of debates I see on the internet, I sometimes wish we would disavow Elder McConkie's claim that evolution is one of 7 deadly heresies. It was never a heresy (the church never took and official stance on it, even though Elder McConkie's statement has been used to pretend that the church kind of sort of had a stance), and Elder McConkie's claims of heresy keep getting used to perpetuate the debate.

While we're "canceling" Elder McConkie, the church has also never taken a stance on the doctrine of progression between kingdoms. The universalist in me wishes we would also disavow his claim that progression between kingdoms was a heresy.

The sexology circles I frequent still get "is oral sex a sin in marriage?" questions based on Pres. Kimball's letter from the early '80s. By itself, it is easy enough to help people understand that the church doesn't want to know and God probably doesn't really care.

As I see it, all of these are ever so slowly fading, and I guess we can just let them slowly fade while running damage control when they come up, but it seems like they would die much quicker if we had a clear disavowal. Most issues liek this can fade into history without much difficulty, but these three seem to hang on and continue to generate discussions and debates that would be easier to settle if there was some kind of disavowal.

I haven't had a temple recommend interview for quite awhile but read that the questions are a little different about wearing garments day and night and are more vague now. I wonder if this is so.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I haven't had a temple recommend interview for quite awhile but read that the questions are a little different about wearing garments day and night and are more vague now. I wonder if this is so.

Old:

 Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

From 2020 (don't know if there is a newer update or not):

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Rain

[Rain]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

Old:

 Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

From 2020 (don't know if there is a newer update or not:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?

The "as instructed" is interesting.  Do they intend that those who were instructed to wear a bra over the top still do that or let you choose since they don't instruct those going through now? 

Obviously, it's something between you and God, but now reading so much about scriptures and trying to understand what prophets meant when they actually said them it makes me curious what is intended here.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

Do they intend that those who were instructed to wear a bra over the top still do that or let you choose since they don't instruct those going through now? 

That instruction did not occur during the endowment though, at least not mine (and it was do whatever worked best as long as bra was white or nude).

[MustardSeed]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

The "as instructed" is interesting.  Do they intend that those who were instructed to wear a bra over the top still do that or let you choose since they don't instruct those going through now? 

Obviously, it's something between you and God, but now reading so much about scriptures and trying to understand what prophets meant when they actually said them it makes me curious what is intended here.

Night and day- I mean I think about my family “night and day” but I mean there are moments when I don’t think of them.  
But if you ask me, ima say I think of them day and night.  
And when I took my daughter to the temple, the new instructions about bras I took as my own new instruction.  I resent being literally intimidated by my personal matron back in the day.  I now live in a moderate manageable relationship with the holy garment and feel so much better ❤️

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

That instruction did not occur during the endowment though, at least not mine (and it was do whatever worked best as long as bra was white or nude).

Wait what?  Like only in the temple, right?