Update on Church Finances

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But usually it's just excuses for the church.

I don't know it's really the church's fault that God hasn't revealed the designs for an unbreakable vacuum cleaner or printer/copier.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The librarians asked over and over for it to be fixed or a new one. But the answer was basically, deal with it. 

 

That is more than likely on the locals as I have been in stakes that go to the other extreme. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This puts a thorn in my side about the finances of the church. No need to say where I saw this c/p'd post, we all know. I saw needs like this all the time in the church. Specifically in my old ward as the RS secretary and was in charge of a monthly newsletter for some reason, plus getting a ward phone/address list to every member. This was probably 10 or more years ago. So things are different now with now having the LDS tools app.

I had to rely on a very slow copier in the library. The faster or better copier was in the Stake Presidency's office area. And as a Primary teacher another time, when teachers needed copies for lessons etc. it was always such a pain. The librarians asked over and over for it to be fixed or a new one. But the answer was basically, deal with it. 

So in my frustrations I would take it to the local copy center and so would a lot of others. This is what puts the thorn in, that the church has the billions it does, but makes it hard on the little guy, the ward member. 

Hopefully things will change, but I don't think it will. If people on this board, or members, have these experiences currently, I'd like to know. If you care to share. But usually it's just excuses for the church.

Some facilities management groups are better than others. I feel like the one that we have in our building is a little bit useless. But I agree with you. There is no excuse for the equipment not to work. I would not be bringing my vacuum cleaner to the church. Not because I’m not willing to share, but because that will only encourage the FM group not to replace the vacuums that are broken.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

There is no excuse for the equipment not to work.

I would wonder if the FM group was aware of the problem.  I've found several times when someone has stuck a sign on a vacuum saying it didn't work, but no one has actually notified the FM group.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I would wonder if the FM group was aware of the problem.  I've found several times when someone has stuck a sign on a vacuum saying it didn't work, but no one has actually notified the FM group.

That could be.  You would hope that the building facilities coordinator knew about the FM group (or at the very least knew how to tell someone on the ward council that a lot of the vacuums were broken) but sometimes that kind of information falls through the cracks.   

In terms of the FM group in our building, yes, they are always in the loop.   They even hang out in the building on weekdays, though I have no idea what they are doing. They are in church clothes so not doing any maintenance or cleaning, but maybe there are other duties I'm not aware of.  I'm sure they are good men, but they have a reputation for being difficult to deal with and slow to respond.

[Nofear]

The FM groups can be good and some can be downright awful. The Church is most definitely not just shoveling money at extravagant meeting houses--at least not in all cases. Our small little ward has a building built on a template from the 80's that proved to be downright ornery for a number of reasons. Multiple bishops have tried to get the building expanded but we continue not to meet the internal criteria. The struggle will continue...

[Rain]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Some facilities management groups are better than others. I feel like the one that we have in our building is a little bit useless. But I agree with you. There is no excuse for the equipment not to work. I would not be bringing my vacuum cleaner to the church. Not because I’m not willing to share, but because that will only encourage the FM group not to replace the vacuums that are broken.

That's similar to my feelings with cub scouts.  I had $50 one year for 8 cub scouts.  I got really good at doing free activities, but I chose not to spend because I knew other people didn't have money to spend.  It was a good thing I was looking for free things to do because the next year I got ZERO for my budget. It wasn't just a me thing though - it was $0 for all classes and den meetings for the primary and the bigger group meetings got very little.  

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

That's similar to my feelings with cub scouts.  I had $50 one year for 8 cub scouts.  I got really good at doing free activities, but I chose not to spend because I knew other people didn't have money to spend.  It was a good thing I was looking for free things to do because the next year I got ZERO for my budget. It wasn't just a me thing though - it was $0 for all classes and den meetings for the primary and the bigger group meetings got very little.  

That's so hard when you don't know how much your budget is doing to be year to year.  And to go to zero would be REALLY hard.  

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

That's similar to my feelings with cub scouts.  I had $50 one year for 8 cub scouts.  I got really good at doing free activities, but I chose not to spend because I knew other people didn't have money to spend.  It was a good thing I was looking for free things to do because the next year I got ZERO for my budget. It wasn't just a me thing though - it was $0 for all classes and den meetings for the primary and the bigger group meetings got very little.  

Isn’t that on the bishops though?  Don’t they assign the budget?  Where was it going?

We were told in the library to spend our budget otherwise when the bishop assigned the same the following year he wouldn’t be able to justify it. 
 

Is the budget a set amount based on attendance and then the bishop divvies it up or is it based on what the bishop asks for from the stake?

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Isn’t that on the bishops though?  Don’t they assign the budget?  Where was it going?

We were told in the library to spend our budget otherwise when the bishop assigned the same the following year he wouldn’t be able to justify it. 
 

Is the budget a set amount based on attendance and then the bishop divvies it up or is it based on what the bishop asks for from the stake?

Yes, it's up to the bishop or ward council, but it also goes on how much the ward gets.  When it went to zero there was some problem that I can't remember.  The thing is I'm pretty creative, my time was flexible because I didn't work and saving money is like a sport to me so it was a lot easier for me than for some others.  It just isn't a good thing to put many people in that kind of position when there may be other options.

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Is the budget a set amount based on attendance and then the bishop divvies it up or is it based on what the bishop asks for from the stake?

There are a couple of metrics I think, but sacrament attendance is the biggest factor to a ward's budget allotment. Just recently got increased a bit this year while stake budgets got cut. If a ward or stake doesn't use their budget by the end of the year, it's supposed to go back to the general fund (an exception was made for the pandemic years).

Budget allotments are basically paper walls since all the budget comes out of the same pot. Some bishops will be fastidious in their divvying. Others will be much more laissez-faire only awakening if somebody goes a bit over board.

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Isn’t that on the bishops though?  Don’t they assign the budget?  Where was it going?

We were told in the library to spend our budget otherwise when the bishop assigned the same the following year he wouldn’t be able to justify it. 
 

Is the budget a set amount based on attendance and then the bishop divvies it up or is it based on what the bishop asks for from the stake?

It’s based on attendance and it comes from the stake I think. But as I understand it, the bishop (and maybe counselors?) decides how it’s allocated to the ward.

But you are right in that you need to spend the budget each year or you won’t get it next year.

[Amulek]

With the number of former clerks around here I'm surprised nobody has jumped in to provide some clarity on the ward budget stuff. Here's a (probably longer than you want to read) run-down for how things generally work here in the states.

Actually, to make things easier, let's just go straight to the source: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/tools/help/the-budget-allowance?lang=eng

Quote

 

When determining the amount of funds to be allocated to the stake and wards, the Church allocates funds to the stake for the next quarter based on attendance figures from the previous quarter. For example, the allocation for the first quarter of 2020 is based on attendance reported on the Quarterly Report for the third quarter of 2019.The Budget and Appropriations Committee allocates budget funds based on attendance in the following categories:

1. Sacrament meeting
2. Young men
3. Young women
4. Primary children turning 8 – turning 11 years of age
5. Young single adults

Stake presidents and bishops make sure budget allowance funds are spent wisely. Funds should be used to bless people and to further gospel purposes. Leaders also ensure that all expenditures are within the allowance. The success of the unit budget allowance depends on the efforts of local priesthood leaders to monitor and control Church finances and expenses.

Unneeded budget allowance funds should not be spent. Unneeded ward funds are returned to the stake. Unneeded stake funds are returned to the Area Office. ***As an exception, stakes and wards may retain some unspent funds if they are needed for specific activities that are planned for the next year, such as a youth conference. However, significant portions of the stake or ward budget allowance should not be retained from one year to the next to cover travel expenses. Nor should funds from the “Local” category be used to supplement the “Budget” category.

 

I'm not sure what the specific numbers are currently (and they vary from country to country), but the dollar amounts per person here in the US used to be as follows:

1. General budget (sacrament meeting) = $12
2. Young men = $12.5
3. Young women = $12.5
4. Primary = $6.25
5. Young single adults = $6.25

So, to come up with the quarterly amount, you would take the average number of people for each category in the previous quarter and multiply it by the appropriate category amount to come up with the category allowance. The stake will usually retain some portion of that amount for the activities they handle (e.g., YSA, FSY, etc.) while the remainder is distributed to the wards. The bishop will then allocate the budget among the various auxiliaries in accordance with the ward's budget plan, which is typically based off prior year spending with consideration given to planned spending during the year.

As for unspent funds, the handbook still says that those are returned to the stake but in practice I don't think I've seen that done in quite some time. Last time I was in the bishopric our stake specifically told us not to rush to spend every last dollar in December because we no longer would be losing those unused funds. My understanding is that there is a cutoff for that, but it's pretty generous - like, you won't get flagged unless you are carrying over more than 50% of your annual allocation. YMMV.

 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

It’s based on attendance and it comes from the stake I think. But as I understand it, the bishop (and maybe counselors?) decides how it’s allocated to the ward.

But you are right in that you need to spend the budget each year or you won’t get it next year.

And this is such a weird thing. Some years with cub scouts I had 8 boys. Some years 1. Some years RS has no YW coming in and some years many. Some EQP will see there is a need to strengthen the men with activities in the quorem because something tragic happened.  Other years the men may not need those activities. 

Getting an idea of budget from the last year is a good idea. Deciding to cut the budget merely because they didn't use it is ignoring the differences from year to year.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Rain said:

And this is such a weird thing. Some years with cub scouts I had 8 boys. Some years 1. Some years RS has no YW coming in and some years many. Some EQP will see there is a need to strengthen the men with activities in the quorem because something tragic happened.  Other years the men may not need those activities. 

Getting an idea of budget from the last year is a good idea. Deciding to cut the budget merely because they didn't use it is ignoring the differences from year to year.

Yes!  It's that kind of stuff that causes the leaders to make sure that they spend their budgets even if they didn't "need" to that year.  Because the budget isn't always based on actual needs.  

[Tacenda]

On 4/18/2024 at 10:19 AM, Amulek said:

I don't know it's really the church's fault that God hasn't revealed the designs for an unbreakable vacuum cleaner or printer/copier.

 

I just think it's going beyond safe or ridiculous that members have to bring their own cleaning supplies and vacuums. 

The church can and should do better. Treat the members better, that's all. 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I just think it's going beyond safe or ridiculous that members have to bring their own cleaning supplies and vacuums.

The church can and should do better. Treat the members better, that's all. 

The church provides commercial cleaning supplies and equipment for its buildings. When supplies run out or equipment breaks down, the church has processes in place to handle that - whether that be replenishment or repair / replacement.

However, the church doesn't have a way check on the status of its vacuum cleaners world wide from Church Headquarters (maybe we should bring back the Danites for this). That responsibility lies at the local level - typically with the Agent Bishop for the building in question. In my experience, problems in this area are almost always local administrative issues - not the church failing to "[t]reat the members better."

 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Amulek said:

The church provides commercial cleaning supplies and equipment for its buildings. When supplies run out or equipment breaks down, the church has processes in place to handle that - whether that be replenishment or repair / replacement.

However, the church doesn't have a way check on the status of its vacuum cleaners world wide from Church Headquarters (maybe we should bring back the Danites for this). That responsibility lies at the local level - typically with the Agent Bishop for the building in question. In my experience, problems in this area are almost always local administrative issues - not the church failing to "[t]reat the members better."

 

I made an error in saying cleaning supplies, must be something I read on reddit. But they did need extension cords. 

 

[InCognitus]

On 4/17/2024 at 9:30 PM, GoCeltics said:

If I recall correctly, it was God who provided Moses with the design for the tabernacle
but the design of the temple came from David. In turn, God allowed Solomon to build it. 
But I feel the temple was extravagant to say the least.

Do you believe the tabernacle was also extravagant (as commanded by the Lord), with the overlay of pure gold for the ark of the covenant, and the mercy seat of pure gold, and the two cherubim of gold, and the table of shittim wood overlaid with pure gold, and the pillars of wood overlaid with gold and their hooks of gold, and the altar of incense overlaid with pure gold etc. etc.?  (See Exodus 25-26, 28, 30).  

On 4/17/2024 at 9:30 PM, GoCeltics said:

Regarding the question you posed, which impoverished people are you referring to?

Are you suggesting there were no impoverished people in that region?  Israel had commandments regarding the poor among them going back to the beginning (i.e. Exodus 23:11).  And years later, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians, it says "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it... And he carried out thence all the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king’s house, and cut in pieces all the vessels of gold which Solomon king of Israel had made in the temple of the Lord, as the Lord had said.  And he carried away all Jerusalem, and all the princes, and all the mighty men of valour, even ten thousand captives, and all the craftsmen and smiths: none remained, save the poorest sort of the people of the land."  (2 Kings 24:11–14)   And in 2 Kings 25:12, when more of the people were carried away into Babylon, it says "But the captain of the guard left of the poor of the land to be vinedressers and husbandmen." (2 Kings 25:12)  (Jeremiah 40:7 says something similar).

Edited April 20, 2024 by InCognitus

[Stargazer]

On 4/18/2024 at 4:36 AM, GoCeltics said:

Sufficiently adequate schools for all students.

Sufficiently adequate temples for all members. Whether they look too fancy (to you) or not.

[Stargazer]

On 4/18/2024 at 4:57 AM, The Nehor said:

Yeah, this is true but if you are trying to game the system you don’t make the check out to the Bishop or one of his family. You use it to buy something from a business that the BIshop owns or has a stake in that most people don’t know about. Basically embezzlement and money laundering rolled into one.

No system is perfect. 

[InCognitus]

On 4/12/2024 at 6:32 PM, GoCeltics said:

Constructing an extravagant temple within an impoverished community sends a negative message.

I know I've already commented on what you said above, but I've been in the process of preparing a talk for Sacrament meeting next Sunday (I'm going to be out of town this week so I can't procrastinate), and I came across this statement from (then) President Gordon B. Hinckley from an April 1998 Conference address:

"Now, in conclusion I wish to make an announcement. As I have previously indicated, in recent months we have traveled far out among the membership of the Church. I have been with many who have very little of this world’s goods. But they have in their hearts a great burning faith concerning this latter-day work. They love the Church. They love the gospel. They love the Lord and want to do His will. They are paying their tithing, modest as it is. They make tremendous sacrifices to visit the temples. They travel for days at a time in cheap buses and on old boats. They save their money and do without to make it all possible.  They need nearby temples—small, beautiful, serviceable temples.  Accordingly, I take this opportunity to announce to the entire Church a program to construct some 30 smaller temples immediately....."

As has already been said by others, I think this sends a positive message to people in this situation to provide to them easier access to temples.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

No system is perfect. 

I know but that is how a lot of church fraud works. Sometimes the perpetrators are caught anyways.

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I know but that is how a lot of church fraud works. Sometimes the perpetrators are caught anyways.

One hopes so.

Long, long time ago, when I was a member of a small US serviceman's branch in Germany, we had an American civilian family move into the branch. The husband was actually an excommunicated member who had lost his membership over financial shenanigans. I knew that part of his story, because I was the branch president. But I stayed out of the details, since it didn't involve us.  It must have been a substantial amount of money, though, as he was expecting it to be several years before he could pay the money back in order to regain his membership. 

[Amulek]

On 4/19/2024 at 3:04 PM, Tacenda said:

I made an error in saying cleaning supplies, must be something I read on reddit. But they did need extension cords.

Sure. And I get how that would be seen as an inconvenience by many, but I don't believe this one (alleged) situation, in this one ward, for this one cleaning assignment, in and of itself is sufficient to make the jump to claiming the church is mistreating its members.

This is invariably the result of mismanagement at the local level - not a systemic problem on the church's end. So if you want to complain about it, go ahead and do so, but take it up with the local bishop and the building representative; they are the ones who dropped the ball here. Of course, I'm willing to bet good money that such complaining isn't really needed. Most bishops are self-aware enough to know when they have messed up and are capable of learning from their mistakes. I doubt this one will happen there again.