The Church as the 5th Largest Private Landholder in U.S.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Thanks for fulfilling the CFR! I appreciate it! I don't often issue CFRs, but when I do, I rejoice in being responded to!  

Unfortunately, time is rather short for this, so I don't know when I'm going to be able to get back to you on it. My wife decided several months ago that we would spend the Christmas and New Year season traveling on coaches and staying in hotels. We leave tomorrow and will be gone for 12 days, in Belgium, Austria, Czechia, and the Netherlands.. She will not permit me to take my laptop, as this is to be a "disconnection" holiday. I'll have a phone and a tablet, but trying to post here (as verbose as I often am) would be very problematic.

May you have a Happy Christmas!

Well enjoy your travels and disconnect!.  Merry Christmas to you!

[Calm]

Have fun. Sounds like a blast. 

[mfbukowski]

Dang it.

I envy people who can get to continental Europe with a ferry boat ride!

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 12/22/2022 at 5:15 AM, Stargazer said:

We leave tomorrow and will be gone for 12 days, in Belgium, Austria, Czechia, and the Netherlands.

My father lived in Czechia back when it belonged to the old Czechoslovakia. (His one trip to Bratislava resulted in spending a few nights in a gaol cell.) When the Communist authorities gave him 48 hours to 'disappear', he was able to cross into Austria. I always hoped he'd be able to go back post-Communism, and it almost happened, but it was not to be. Enjoy! Please eat some vepřo-zelo-knedlo for me!

Edited December 22, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 12/16/2022 at 12:51 PM, Analytics said:

how much money does the average congregation need?

On 12/17/2022 at 2:20 PM, Analytics said:

What I would recommend they do is:

 

 

 

 

 

And again, it's just silly how many otherwise smart people can associate the phrase "hoarding" with owning productive farmland and owning shares of operating businesses.   And every time someone who is supposed to be smart uses the phrase when referring to such activities, that person loses a bit more respect from folk who understand the difference between those activities and this: 

 

 

[Tacenda]

I'm sitting at the city creek mall waiting to meet up with my daughters who are taking me to make some jewelry at some place here. Watched the news a couple of nights ago 5 people died in the freezing temps...and there are thousands of churches available to help provide a place to sleep I'm thinking. Or shelters are at capacity, they are going to open up some more beds eventually. But is there anything the church can do? As I sit in this fancy mall. It's driving me bonkers, but that's what my daughter insisted we do. But seriously church 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But is there anything the church can do?

Nope.

Absolutely nothing.

Nothing whatsoever.

Nothing anywhere.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Pyreaux]

Umm, some church critics from 2003 just called: They said they want their Mall Drum back.

Gather around Zoomers, I will tell you a tale of how many critics, having never paid any fund responsible for buying the City Creek Mall, harp how better things would be if the Church spent less on projects with long-term solutions, like electricity and clean-water projects, and developing real-estate like City Creek Mall to stop urban decay, provided job training and construction jobs, transportation, and other help to inner-city Salt Lake City residents from being plagued by joblessness and raise the economy of the area. Where one might see the mall as the church doing something good, but others saw a sinister evil if it's not third world philanthropy. The City Creek Mall became a symbol of avarice.

It was bought by commercial entities owned by the Church as an investment, but somehow saving money into investments like the City Creek Mall instead of simply holding on cash or cash equivalents is evil. While the church could give many reasons why they invest and retains a significant surplus at all times, such as church expenditures tend to grow as the church grows, needing more electricity, property, chapels and temples etc.; and any economic or natural shock could cause expenses to significantly outrun tithing income suddenly. But the critics all know a church should be so charitable that it risks going into debt. And so, the avarice never ends.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Pyreaux

[JustAnAustralian]

54 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

.and there are thousands of churches available to help provide a place to sleep I'm thinking.

Legally sleep?

Zoning laws in Provo don't allow for homeless shelters so one church skirts the law by calling them "movie nights" in their auditorium https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2021/06/11/why-doesnt-utahs-second/ 

Can't find any regulations for SLC, but do you really want the church skirting (or breaking) the law to allow it?

[LoudmouthMormon]

15 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Legally sleep?

Zoning laws in Provo don't allow for homeless shelters 

Lol.

https://www.shelterlist.com/city/ut-provo

https://www.yellowpages.com/provo-ut/homeless-shelters

There's even a Yelp page ranking them:   https://www.yellowpages.com/provo-ut/homeless-shelters

 

Who the crap told you Provo doesn't allow homeless shelters?  Must be because you're Australian and are reading all your news upside down or something.  Or you fell prey to a stupidly biased and blatantly false news story from the SLCTrib, and failed to do a basic 5 seconds of fact checking.

Edited December 23, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

There is one organization listed in Shelter list and if you go to its description, it doesn’t not provide a place to sleep, but aid in finding housing. 
 

Quote

The Food and Care Coalition has a transitional housing program, not a shelter. It is an application based program that takes about 2 weeks to process the application. Individuals do not pay rent, and can stay as long as they are following program rules and are working towards their transition plan, up to a year. 

 

[Calm]

The second link only shows Housing Authority as being in Provo and that is not a shelter. 
 

Your last link is the same as the second one. 
 

Google…Community Action seems a food bank and assistance to find places and counseling, showers and laundry, but not a place to sleep. 
 

This article also states there is no shelter that provides an overnight stay. They give out motel vouchers instead. 
 

https://www.kuer.org/race-religion-social-justice/2022-01-21/motel-vouchers-churches-and-more-ways-unsheltered-people-try-to-survive-in-utah-county

Edited December 23, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

My daughter works for the church's real estate arm and now she's based in Riverton, Utah where the church is building homes that are for rent only. That just seems wrong, and I know I need attitude adjustments, but reminds me of Potterville in the "It's a Wonderful Life" film where everyone was beholden to living in rentals instead of owning their own homes, until Bailey Building and Loan was started. ETA: But I'll look at it as if many cannot qualify for a home loan I guess.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Tacenda

[Harry T. Clark]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My daughter works for the church's real estate arm and now she's based in Riverton, Utah where the church is building homes that are for rent only. That just seems wrong, and I know I need attitude adjustments, but reminds me of Potterville in the "It's a Wonderful Life" film where everyone was beholden to living in rentals instead of owning their own homes, until Bailey Building and Loan was started. ETA: But I'll look at it as if many cannot qualify for a home loan I guess.

Kind of reminds me of Kramer dominating the dojo:

 

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

My daughter works for the church's real estate arm and now she's based in Riverton, Utah where the church is building homes that are for rent only. That just seems wrong, and I know I need attitude adjustments, but reminds me of Potterville in the "It's a Wonderful Life" film where everyone was beholden to living in rentals instead of owning their own homes, until Bailey Building and Loan was started. ETA: But I'll look at it as if many cannot qualify for a home loan I guess.

I work in municipal government and I can tell you that housing supply is at a crisis point, not just in my state, but nationwide.

Rental homes are an essential step between apartment living and owning a home, but because of the profitability of short-term rentals (airbnb and the like), the supply of such units isn't keeping up with demand.

By keeping these units as rentals, the Church ensures that they are not bought by people who will use them for short term rentals. 

[Tacenda]

One last harp, I was with a friend at her church building while her family was having a Christmas party, I was asked to take a photo of the family together. Anyway she was embarrassed at her church's kitchen area not being clean enough and she was feeling bad that she hadn't been able to clean it beforehand, and she'd just had surgery on her neck and back. She added that she'd had a terrible experience with someone's poop all over the men's bathroom that she had to clean awhile back and I spoke up that it had happened to me also with dried poop that I had to soak and keep cleaning to get it off. 

This is where I think the members are treated like crap, why do they make members have to deal with that. So many are probably just saying no, they've had it and then it rests with those that have callings over that department. 

It's time the church hire back the janitors, I'll bet the higher up leaders are not cleaning the restrooms or any of the building for that matter. But I wouldn't want them to. Now the church is having members handle snow removal as well. What's next, mowing lawns too?

[Hamba Tuhan]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

One last harp ...

Seriously? Can we hold you to this???

Quote

I'll bet the higher up leaders are not cleaning the restrooms or any of the building for that matter.

I rang my stake president late in the evening two Saturdays ago. I apologised for disturbing him at that time. He said, cheerfully, that it was a fine time to ring since he and his family were just at the chapel taking their turn cleaning. Then he apologised for the echo since he was cleaning the toilets.

Quote

It's time the church hire back the janitors ...

Yep, cos nothing says 'Stop treating people like crap' more clearly than employing the economically desperate to do jobs you consider too beneath you to do.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Seriously? Can we hold you to this???

I rang my stake president late in the evening two Saturdays ago. I apologised for disturbing him at that time. He said, cheerfully, that it was a fine time to ring since he and his family were just at the chapel taking their turn cleaning. Then he apologised for the echo since he was cleaning the toilets.

Yep, cos nothing says 'Stop treating people like crap' more clearly than employing the economically desperate to do jobs you consider too beneath you to do.

No you're wrong, those janitors from what I've heard some say, really loved their job. And I've cleaned many a home including my own, toilets and all. Sure, pay us church. Also, what do you feel about snow removal, most likely not happening where you are in a warm climate I'm guessing. Why are members doing this now? Once again, cleaning a toilet isn't beneath me, but the church can pay me too. Or the members. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

46 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No you're wrong, those janitors from what I've heard some say, really loved their job. 

Cos who doesn't love cleaning faeces???

Well, with the possible exception of you and your friend, apparently ...

Edited December 24, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Cos who doesn't love cleaning faeces???

You're behaviour is beneath the Hamba of yesterday, or yesteryear! Yes the janitors did love their jobs...maybe because it worked with their schedules, or some had disabilities and it worked well for them that way. They took pride in their work, why can't you understand that?

[Tacenda]

On 12/22/2022 at 6:06 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

Nope.

Absolutely nothing.

Nothing whatsoever.

Nothing anywhere.

From I think the last link....members once again! No money from Ensign Peak right?

 

“This donation, as well as others like it, is made possible due to the generous giving of members of the Church of Jesus Christ here and overseas. We are grateful that so many are focused on loving God and His children, through charitable donations and volunteer service,” Elder Nattress said.

[Hamba Tuhan]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You're behaviour is beneath the Hamba of yesterday, or yesteryear!

But voluntarily cleaning toilets with my fellow ward members isn't beneath me, so maybe it all balances out? 

Quote

Some had disabilities and it worked well for them that way. They took pride in their work, why can't you understand that?

I think I understand perfectly well why you would prefer those with disability to be paid to do work that you find contemptible.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No money from Ensign Peak right?

This really, really bothers you, doesn't it?

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

But voluntarily cleaning toilets with my fellow ward members isn't beneath me, so maybe it all balances out? 

I think I understand perfectly well why you would prefer those with disability to be paid to do work that you find contemptible.

I find it contemptible to take their job away and then in turn it's a volunteer job. With the billions the church has. And they are adding snow removal to the list, not going to answer that are you. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Not going to answer that are you. 

I'm not seeing a question in your post, but I appreciate its honesty.