The Church as the 5th Largest Private Landholder in U.S.

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm not seeing a question in your post, but I appreciate its honesty. 

About the church now asking members to help clean off the snow in the church parking lots. They've always done the sidewalks etc. But now are they asked to clear off the parking lots? I am out of the loop so no big deal. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Tacenda

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

About the church now asking members to help clean off the snow in the church parking lots. They've always done the sidewalks etc. But now are they asked to clear off the parking lots? I am out of the loop so no big deal. 

I live in Southern Arizona, so this isn't an issue for us and I've heard nothing about it. But I would like a CFR or other corroborating source.

Seems to me that clearing the parking lot requires specialized equipment that the clearing of sidewalks would not. If the church is asking members to shovel the entire parking lot, I'd raise an eyebrow and thank my heavenly father for leading me to my sunny home in the southwest. But if the church is providing a snowblower for the task, that's a horse of a different color.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Stormin' Mormon

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I live in Southern Arizona, so this isn't an issue for us and I've heard nothing about it. But I would like a CFR or other corroborating source.

Seems to me that clearing the parking lot requires specialized equipment that the clearing of sidewalks would not. If the church is asking members to shovel the entire parking lot, I'd raise an eyebrow and thank my heavenly father for leading me to my sunny home in the southwest. But if the church is providing a snowblower for the task, that's a horse of a different color.

I just know someone that was asked to do it, and brain fogged about the whole parking lot, but that is what my mind is telling me by memory. I'd love for others from Utah to say if I'm losing it or not though. 

[Stargazer]

I've been away from MDDB since 21 December, as the wife and I were about to go on a coach trip onto the Continent for Christmas and New Years. We were away for 12 days, and it was my intention to get back with Teancum's response to my CFR upon our return. However, we managed to caught a really bad upper respiratory infecton, and up until a few days ago I was not feeling up to much of anything. This will explain the delay, I hope!

Back before Christmas I asked of @Teancum:

Posted December 19, 2022
  On 12/18/2022 at 12:57 AM, Stargazer said:
Again, and this time a CFR: does the New Testament (and specifically Jesus) teach us that wealth accumulation is condemnatory? Please give chapter and verse.

Teancum obliged me with the following:

Luke 16:10-15 (NIV) - “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own? “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

1 Timothy 6:17-18 - “Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.”

Matthew 19:21-26 - "Jesus said to him, 'If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. ' When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Luke 6:20-21 (NIV) - “Looking at his disciples, he said: 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh

Matthew 5:1-3 - Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 25:29 - “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.” 

Do you want more?  Go read your Bible. And your Book of Mormon.

===================

The verses above are his response to my question "...does the New Testament (and specifically Jesus) teach us that wealth accumulation is condemnatory?"

Those are all worthy verses, indeed. But did any of them condemn the acquisition of wealth? Not at all. The most that can be said for these verses is that they advise on how to righteously manage whatever wealth one acquires. But there's no condemnation of its acquisition.

For Jesus to condemn the acquisition of wealth in the New Testament, He would have had to start in the Old. Many of his servants in the past acquired significant wealth, and in some cases (Abraham, David and Solomon, for instance) they acquired enormous wealth. Abraham was powerful enough to command a small army, and both his son Isaac and grandson Jacob became wealthy magnates in their own times. The wealth and power of David and Solomon were legendary. And were any of these condemned for their wealth by any prophet? No. If wealth acquisition, in itself, was condemnatory, then it seems that this should have been made explicit in the OT. When Jesus spoke with Nicodemus, did he raise the issue of Nicodemus' own wealth? No. Joseph of Arimathea was apparently one of Jesus's disciples, and a wealthy member of the Sanhedrin. Was he condemned for his wealth? If he was, there's no record of it, and if he had been asked to do as the young man in Matthew 19, he obviously disobeyed.

As for that rich young man in Matthew 19, he asked Jesus how to become perfect, and was advised to sell everything he had to give it to the poor, apparently in preparation for following Jesus as a disciple. But did Jesus condemn his wealth? No.

In Matthew's version of the parable of the talents, Jesus tells of giving various amounts of wealth to three men. We're talking huge sums of money, by the way. The man receiving 5 talents was given the equivalent of 30,000 denarii. A denarius was the usual payment for a day's labor, and at one denarius per day, 5 talents was therefore worth 60 years of labor. This man then proceeded to double it by wise investing. Was he condemned for this wealth accumulation? No, he was praised. And then rewarded with greater responsibility. The one servant who simply buried his bequest and accumulated nothing was the one who was condemned.

Would Jesus have told the story in that way if he taught that the accumulation of wealth was to be condemned? 

When the short tax collector Zacchaeus pledged to Jesus that he would give half of his wealth away to feed the poor, did Jesus say to him: "What? Only half?"  No, he said "This day is salvation come to this house."

When Ananias and Saphira were killed by the Holy Spirit for lying to Peter about the funds they were donating to the Church, were they condemned because they only gave half their wealth? No, they were condemned only for lying to the Lord's representative about how much they were giving. 

The verses you gave above teach that men should not trust in wealth, and that those with means should be generous with others. They do not condemn the acquisition of wealth. Only dishonest acquisition and misuse of what one acquires.

But when it comes to Matthew 25:29, on the other hand, where it says “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away,” it seems to be saying "The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer!" And says it as if it were a feature, and not a bug. Well, nevermind about that -- it's probably not what was meant.

Anyway, the wealth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is scripturally justified, quite clearly so. I'm pretty happy about it. You're welcome to be critical of it, of course. You have your agency.

[MiserereNobis]

On 12/21/2022 at 5:33 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

My father lived in Czechia back when it belonged to the old Czechoslovakia. (His one trip to Bratislava resulted in spending a few nights in a gaol cell.) When the Communist authorities gave him 48 hours to 'disappear', he was able to cross into Austria. I always hoped he'd be able to go back post-Communism, and it almost happened, but it was not to be. Enjoy! Please eat some vepřo-zelo-knedlo for me!

Oooo, so yummy! I miss knedliky. Of course, if you are going to have the full traditional Czech meal, you'd need to add some pivo (beer) to this picture.

[Stargazer]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:33 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

My father lived in Czechia back when it belonged to the old Czechoslovakia. (His one trip to Bratislava resulted in spending a few nights in a gaol cell.) When the Communist authorities gave him 48 hours to 'disappear', he was able to cross into Austria. I always hoped he'd be able to go back post-Communism, and it almost happened, but it was not to be. Enjoy! Please eat some vepřo-zelo-knedlo for me!

Unfortunately, we were in Prague only a couple of days, and no restaurant had this item on the menu -- I looked! The wife has threatened going back to Prague for several days sometime this year or the next, so I might be able to find it then.

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

Unfortunately, we were in Prague only a couple of days, and no restaurant had this item on the menu -- I looked! The wife has threatened going back to Prague for several days sometime this year or the next, so I might be able to find it then.

? That doesn't make much sense. It is the most common meal there. It's considered the national dish.

Maybe you just need to pop into a local place that's not catering to tourists?

[Kenngo1969]

On 12/24/2022 at 10:30 AM, Stormin' Mormon said:

I live in Southern Arizona, so this isn't an issue for us and I've heard nothing about it. But I would like a CFR or other corroborating source.

Seems to me that clearing the parking lot requires specialized equipment that the clearing of sidewalks would not. If the church is asking members to shovel the entire parking lot, I'd raise an eyebrow and thank my heavenly father for leading me to my sunny home in the southwest. But if the church is providing a snowblower for the task, that's a horse of a different color.

Meh.  An F-250 with a snow plow on the front should do the job quite nicely, and in short order, at that.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

? That doesn't make much sense. It is the most common meal there. It's considered the national dish.

Maybe you just need to pop into a local place that's not catering to tourists?

We had street food during the day, except when we ate at the hotel (which wasn't very good, tbh), and bought some groceries for consumption in our hotel room. The only actual restaurant we stopped in didn't seem to have it on the menu. This was the restaurant halfway up the tramway to the big hill. The was the RESTAURANT NEBOZIZEK. The menu page seems to show the dish in question, but I didn't see it on the menu. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

34 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The only actual restaurant we stopped in didn't seem to have it on the menu.

I have no personal experience, but this website has some suggested locations.

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have no personal experience, but this website has some suggested locations.

Thanks! I'll keep it in mind!  

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Thanks! I'll keep it in mind!  

I just had a look at the menu from one of the recommended eateries. Instead of using the common blended/short form of the dish, it actually lists out the components in detail: pečený vepřový vrabec s dvoubarevným zelím a variací houskových a bramborových knedlíků ('roasted pork "sparrow" with two-colour cabbage and a variety of bread and potato dumplings'). So yeah, good luck with fancy 'menu speak' next time! Or maybe try a pub?

Oh, and the restaurant's cost is almost exactly £10.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Hamba Tuhan

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I've been away from MDDB since 21 December, as the wife and I were about to go on a coach trip onto the Continent for Christmas and New Years. We were away for 12 days, and it was my intention to get back with Teancum's response to my CFR upon our return. However, we managed to caught a really bad upper respiratory infecton, and up until a few days ago I was not feeling up to much of anything. This will explain the delay, I hope!

I hope you had a nice trip.  Sorry about  your illness.

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Back before Christmas I asked of @Teancum:

Posted December 19, 2022
  On 12/18/2022 at 12:57 AM, Stargazer said:
Again, and this time a CFR: does the New Testament (and specifically Jesus) teach us that wealth accumulation is condemnatory? Please give chapter and verse.

Teancum obliged me with the following:

Luke 16:10-15 (NIV) - “Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own? “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

1 Timothy 6:17-18 - “Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.”

Matthew 19:21-26 - "Jesus said to him, 'If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me. ' When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Luke 6:20-21 (NIV) - “Looking at his disciples, he said: 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh

Matthew 5:1-3 - Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

Matthew 25:29 - “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.” 

Do you want more?  Go read your Bible. And your Book of Mormon.

I would add to the above this passage from the BoM Jacob Chapter 2:

17 Think of your ^abrethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your ^bsubstance, that ^cthey may be rich like unto you.

18 But ^abefore ye seek for ^briches, seek ye for the ^ckingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ^ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

I think this verse effectively refutes amassing large sums of wealth and simply sitting on it. Especially for The Church that claims to be Jesus's church.  

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

===================

The verses above are his response to my question "...does the New Testament (and specifically Jesus) teach us that wealth accumulation is condemnatory?"

Those are all worthy verses, indeed. But did any of them condemn the acquisition of wealth? Not at all. The most that can be said for these verses is that they advise on how to righteously manage whatever wealth one acquires. But there's no condemnation of its acquisition.

For Jesus to condemn the acquisition of wealth in the New Testament, He would have had to start in the Old. Many of his servants in the past acquired significant wealth, and in some cases (Abraham, David and Solomon, for instance) they acquired enormous wealth. Abraham was powerful enough to command a small army, and both his son Isaac and grandson Jacob became wealthy magnates in their own times. The wealth and power of David and Solomon were legendary. And were any of these condemned for their wealth by any prophet? No. If wealth acquisition, in itself, was condemnatory, then it seems that this should have been made explicit in the OT. When Jesus spoke with Nicodemus, did he raise the issue of Nicodemus' own wealth? No. Joseph of Arimathea was apparently one of Jesus's disciples, and a wealthy member of the Sanhedrin. Was he condemned for his wealth? If he was, there's no record of it, and if he had been asked to do as the young man in Matthew 19, he obviously disobeyed.

All of these are fine examples but you seem to be arguing against something I have not argued against if you read the full context of my posts on this topic. I do not object to wealth accumulation per say.  I have been constituent is stating I think the church is wise to build reserves and have a back up plan. Personally, based on what I have rea about other organizations two to three times annual operating costs seems reasonable.

 

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As for that rich young man in Matthew 19, he asked Jesus how to become perfect, and was advised to sell everything he had to give it to the poor, apparently in preparation for following Jesus as a disciple. But did Jesus condemn his wealth? No.

Lots of opinions about this particular Bible story.  Did it apply to just this fellow or was it really an admonition just for the young man.  But your argument is an argument from silence.

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

In Matthew's version of the parable of the talents, Jesus tells of giving various amounts of wealth to three men. We're talking huge sums of money, by the way. The man receiving 5 talents was given the equivalent of 30,000 denarii. A denarius was the usual payment for a day's labor, and at one denarius per day, 5 talents was therefore worth 60 years of labor. This man then proceeded to double it by wise investing. Was he condemned for this wealth accumulation? No, he was praised. And then rewarded with greater responsibility. The one servant who simply buried his bequest and accumulated nothing was the one who was condemned.

Would Jesus have told the story in that way if he taught that the accumulation of wealth was to be condemned? 

It is a parable and I, and I think most others, interpret this more to refer to our personal talents and abilities not wealth accumulation.

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

When the short tax collector Zacchaeus pledged to Jesus that he would give half of his wealth away to feed the poor, did Jesus say to him: "What? Only half?"  No, he said "This day is salvation come to this house."

Half is pretty generous.  Much more than any thing the Church has done.  Half of the EPA fund would go a long way to do what the verse in Jacob 2 outlines and still leave a lot of money in the fund.

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

When Ananias and Saphira were killed by the Holy Spirit for lying to Peter about the funds they were donating to the Church, were they condemned because they only gave half their wealth? No, they were condemned only for lying to the Lord's representative about how much they were giving. 

The verses you gave above teach that men should not trust in wealth, and that those with means should be generous with others. They do not condemn the acquisition of wealth. Only dishonest acquisition and misuse of what one acquires.

But when it comes to Matthew 25:29, on the other hand, where it says “For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away,” it seems to be saying "The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer!" And says it as if it were a feature, and not a bug. Well, nevermind about that -- it's probably not what was meant.

Again my objection is not about wealth accumulation. It is about excessive wealth accumulation. I am17-19. pleased the church is doing more along the lines of the verse from Jacob2 but let's be honest. It is a pittance compared to its massive wealth. Let's assume the church has $100 billion in EPA. Let's also assume a modest rate of return on the funds of say 4% per year. That is $4 billion a year. If the church put that much to work in addition to what it already does that would be a wonderful step in the right direction and they would not even need to touch  the principle assets.  

16 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Anyway, the wealth of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is scripturally justified, quite clearly so. I'm pretty happy about it. You're welcome to be critical of it, of course. You have your agency.

No it is not.  Not based on Jacob 2:17-19.  It is really amazing to me how the true believers here feel a need to go to the mat on this issue.  Even when I was an active member I wanted to see the church do more to relieve suffering. I also wanted more transparency about the church finances. Maybe that is the CPA in me.  And when I talked to other ward and stake members they looked at me for the most part like I had two heads.  It seems hard for most members to think critically and they seem to have an innate need to defend anything and everything the church does.  Why do you think that is