If gender is eternal, what is the point

[MustardSeed]

If gender is eternal, what is the point after we die and don’t make it to the tip top? We can’t procreate anyway I believe. The answer might be obvious but I haven’t had much sleep.
 

[OGHoosier]

14 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

If gender is eternal, what is the point after we die and don’t make it to the tip top? We can’t procreate anyway I believe. The answer might be obvious but I haven’t had much sleep.
 

Dunno. Might be intrinsically related to certain spiritual capacities independent of procreation. Could be an in-principle thing, ie we are created with the capacities and the image of the perfected even if we do not ourselves obtain it.

[MustardSeed]

Maybe our appendices were mind blower pleasure sources and we blew it really bad at some point and we are paying penance early and don’t even know it. 
Sorry, it’s late and I shouldn’t be talking. 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

If gender is eternal, what is the point after we die and don’t make it to the tip top? We can’t procreate anyway I believe. The answer might be obvious but I haven’t had much sleep.
 

The answer is simple, but the revelatory means to flesh out that answer with specifics has not been disclosed as yet. Here is the answer:

All Human Beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and ETERNAL IDENTITY AND PURPOSE.

What the above highlighted portion of the Family Proclamation is clearly saying is that gender plays an eternally significant role for the saved sons and daughters of Heavenly Father in eternity, even if they don’t “make it to the top.” Exactly how the eternal gender roles will be manifested and experienced by those in the lower kingdoms glory remains to be seen, but to imagine that there is no eternal purpose and destiny to gender identity for those in the lower kingdoms of glory is an unjustified presumption on your part. Just because it hasn’t been explained as yet doesn’t mean it isn’t so.

May I suggest one possibility is that male female attraction may continue on in the lower kingdoms, but that the loving relationships that will grow out of that attraction may play an important role in creating the happiness enjoyed by those in the lower kingdoms, but that the loving bonds formed thereby will be on a less exalted scale when compared to those who do,”make it to the top.”

For me, to imagine that male female attraction ends with the resurrection is tantamount to saying that the saved in the lower kingdoms of glory are no longer human beings and that they no longer have an eternal identity and purpose.

Edited November 5, 2022 by teddyaware

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

If gender is eternal, what is the point after we die ...?

You don't want to continue being a woman?

I 100 per cent want to continue being a man, and I say this as someone who has never procreated nor done 'anything like unto it'.

[Pyreaux]

An interesting question. I've seen a lot of ancient Jewish lore of pre-mortality with genders but nothing about gender of the unjust after the resurrection. I imagine the silence could be due to the answer possibly being crude. What role does eternal gender play in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms? With no "Eternal Marriage" for the purpose of "Eternal Increase" of the seeds, I assume it all still works down there. Are they void of the 'Evil Inclination' and choose, or are forced, to live Celibate or not. Are they physically sterile, or just spiritually sterile. If an unrighteous couple unable to obey Celestial laws both find each other in a kingdom which has no Celestial laws prohibiting certain acts, are they free to commit such acts?🤭 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Pyreaux

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

For me, to imagine that male female attraction ends with the resurrection is tantamount to saying that the saved in the lower kingdoms of glory are no longer human beings and that they no longer have an eternal identity and purpose.

So you are saying that the idea of having your sexual desires ripped away from you would be an inhuman act that would make the end result less than human?

Hmmmmm……..interesting.

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

An interesting question. I've seen a lot of ancient Jewish lore of pre-mortality with genders but nothing about gender of the unjust after the resurrection. I imagine the silence could be due to the answer possibly being crude. What role does eternal gender play in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms? With no "Eternal Marriage" for the purpose of "Eternal Increase" of the seeds, I assume it all still works down there. Are they void of the 'Evil Inclination' and choose, or are forced, to live Celibate or not. Are they physically sterile, or just spiritually sterile. If an unrighteous couple unable to obey Celestial laws both find each other in a kingdom which has no Celestial laws prohibiting certain acts, are they free to commit such acts?🤭 

I believe there is a prophet who told us that those who didn’t arrive would be without the parts necessary in our lower kingdoms.  Ken and Barbies, if you will.  I have no CFR but will dig if needed. 

 

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You don't want to continue being a woman?

I 100 per cent want to continue being a man, and I say this as someone who has never procreated nor done 'anything like unto it'.

I don’t think what I want is relevant when it comes to God’s plan.  (That said, YES I want to be all of me for as long as I exist.) That said, if I didn’t have my parts, I think I would be a vastly different human being in many ways whether I would like that or not.  My organs have me operating in many biological ways unbeknownst to me even when I have no conscious intention to have sex with men. Without those biologies, I’m picturing a moustache (I’m not going to be biologically invested in attracting anyone ) and probably would wear my Birkenstocks 24/7 with socks… and id likely experience an indiscriminate level and type of interest in other humans regardless of their earth gender.  And hey, no need for jealousy- assuming I’m married, but why would I be, my husband could have sleepovers with anyone he wants!  

Now that you mention it… it sounds pretty good. 
 

Important to be clear that being celibate in this life is in my mind completely different than being without genitalia. 
 

[MustardSeed]

Maybe this is the source- Joseph Fielding Smith in the Doctrines of Salvation.  
 

Transparently, as a general rule I leave a lot of leeway in this type of thing being in accurate without losing my business over prophets “ leading us astray.” (I don’t think in terms of black and white- and In my mind the promise not to lead astray does not refer to prophets being wrong At times. In my opinion the promise that they will not let us astray is simply that they will not guide us away from the first principles in ordinances of the church, end of story). I do however think it’s interesting that fundamental Statements like this don’t get clarified or corrected. I mean either gender is eternal or it’s not. And if we do not have genitalia, like literally do not have it, are we men and women? And if we do have it, why? 
Obviously we don’t have the answer. I’m curious about others’ thoughts though. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Important to be clear that being celibate in this life is in my mind completely different than being without genitalia. 

Alma 40:23:

Quote

The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame.

[MustardSeed]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Alma 40:23:

Ah good, the prophet was incorrect 

[The Nehor]

41 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Important to be clear that being celibate in this life is in my mind completely different than being without genitalia. 

Both happen.

[MustardSeed]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Both happen.

Of course. And they are Apples and oranges IMO. 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So you are saying that the idea of having your sexual desires ripped away from you would be an inhuman act that would make the end result less than human?

Hmmmmm……..interesting.

Sexual desires are not sinful and are even fully righteous as long as they are expressed within the bounds that the Lord has set. Since the dawn of mankind’s experience on earth, there have been billions of married men and women who have sexual relations without incurring God’s disapproval. It’s important to realize that the vast majority of these same sexually active male-female married couples have not been Latter-Day Saints, with an even smaller group being numbered among those who have married for time and eternity in the temples, yet no sin is committed as long as the sexual practices are kept within the bounds of righteousness that the Lord has established.

To me, it’s obvious that if men and women no longer have natural mutual attraction and desires to form bonds of righteous heterosexual affection with one another in eternity, it will render the Family Proclamation null and void for the vast majority of the human race, for the Proclamation clearly states that maleness and femaleness is the most crucial element pertaining to the destiny and purpose of human existence. How terribly sad and empty human existence would be if men and women were relegated to being sexless drones who were no longer romantically interested in one another. If in the eternities former earthly men and women devolve to become genderless, passionless, a romantic  entities, that would be tantamount to existing in passionless hell forever.

[MustardSeed]

10 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Sexual desires are not sinful and are even fully righteous as long as they are expressed within the bounds that the Lord has set. Since the dawn of mankind’s experience on earth, there have been billions of married men and women who have sexual relations without incurring God’s disapproval. It’s important to realize that the vast majority of these same sexually active male-female married couples have not been Latter-Day Saints, with an even smaller group being numbered among those who have married for time and eternity in the temples, yet no sin is committed as long as the sexual practices are kept within the bounds of righteousness that the Lord has established.

To me, it’s obvious that if men and women no longer have natural mutual attraction and desires to form bonds of righteous heterosexual affection with one another in eternity, it will render the Family Proclamation null and void for the vast majority of the human race, for the Proclamation clearly states that maleness and femaleness is the most crucial element pertaining to the destiny and purpose of human existence. How terribly sad and empty human existence would be if men and women were relegated to being sexless drones who were no longer romantically interested in one another. If in the eternities former earthly men and women devolve to become genderless, passionless, a romantic  entities, that would be tantamount to existing in passionless hell forever.

I’m hoping what you’re saying is that you disagree with Joseph Fielding Smith

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m hoping what you’re saying is that you disagree with Joseph Fielding Smith

It would be helpful to have the source to read for ourselves.

Isn’t it the current thing to claim that genitalia do not determine sex and gender?

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So you are saying that the idea of having your sexual desires ripped away from you would be an inhuman act that would make the end result less than human?

Hmmmmm……..interesting.

And I think sexual desires and being the subject of those desires can cause someone to be less human sometimes. Hmmm.....

[MustardSeed]

56 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Isn’t it the current thing to claim that genitalia do not determine sex and gender?

Indeed! 
 

56 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

would be helpful

True. Or maybe really unhelpful 😅

 Isn’t it common belief among us that we will not procreate unless we are at the top level of the CK? If gender is eternal, why be eternal if we can’t use the goods?  Just to torture the rest of us,  as Teddy suggests? 

[carbon dioxide]

10 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

If gender is eternal, what is the point after we die and don’t make it to the tip top? We can’t procreate anyway I believe. The answer might be obvious but I haven’t had much sleep.
 

Is gender simply about procreation?  Maybe there is sports in the Celestial Kingdom.  I want to watch men's basketball.   The Celestial version of the WNBA may be boring.

Edited November 5, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Is gender simply about procreation?  Maybe there is sports in the Celestial Kingdom.  I want to watch men's basketball.   The Celestial version of the WNBA may be boring.

I believe in the church, gender is all about procreation.  Personally I think gender is all about attraction and about sex.  I’m open to other ways of thinking. 
 

As a sidenote. My observation of people who claim to be asexual also tend to often appear attempting to look gender neutral.As a sidenote. My observation of people who claim to be asexual also tend to often appear attempting to look gender neutral.

[MrShorty]

Perhaps I am just primed to see this, but do I detect an underlying assumption that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are "dead ends"? What if the answer to the OP is that "deadly heresy" (that has technically never been officially refuted by the church) of progression between kingdoms? What if the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are merely extra "stepping stones" along some people's path towards exaltation in the celestial kingdom with all of its gender based perks?

I know we are generally uncomfortable with the possibility of universal salvation/exaltation. As I understand it, much of the early saints' resistance to "The Vision" was this fear of universalism, and I don't think we have ever really gotten over that fear.

I don't know the answer.

[MustardSeed]

https://archive.org/details/Doctrines-of-Salvation-volume-2-joseph-fielding-smith/page/n177/mode/2up

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

It would be helpful to have the source to read for ourselves.

 

 

 

[MustardSeed]

I think it’s pretty obvious that he was wrong, based on scripture (as Hamba states) . Like I said I have no problem with a prophet  making an incorrect statement.   It doesn’t upset me nor does it give me a thrill like it might enemies of the church.
The church is teaching us today that gender is eternal.   I personally believe gender has everything to do with sex. I can state  Anecdotally that I have heard enough discussion in the context of our religion that I have the impression that we are to believe that there will not be sex and certainly not procreation Except for the elite. Maybe all of this discussion that I have heard comes from what I believe now is an errant statement from a president. 
I just simply don’t see a value of genitalia (under these restrictions)For the rest of us unless it is just to make us miserable.

For the record , I like to hope that in the afterlife, we will be each of our very best and favorite versions of ourselves physically and that we can have all the feels, Physically and emotionally and sexually, and that we will do no harm with any of that to anyone, regardless of what kingdom we find ourselves most comfortable in. Anything less feels really unappealing.

Edited November 5, 2022 by MustardSeed

[manol]

5 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Perhaps I am just primed to see this, but do I detect an underlying assumption that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are "dead ends"? What if the answer to the OP is that "deadly heresy" (that has technically never been officially refuted by the church) of progression between kingdoms? What if the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are merely extra "stepping stones" along some people's path towards exaltation in the celestial kingdom...

What a deadly heresy indeed to imply that Christ might actually succeed in His mission, and bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man!

In the meantime, I can think of at least one Telestial world with numerous inhabitants who aspire to level-up all the way to the Celestial. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by manol

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Indeed! 
 

True. Or maybe really unhelpful 😅

 Isn’t it common belief among us that we will not procreate unless we are at the top level of the CK? If gender is eternal, why be eternal if we can’t use the goods?  Just to torture the rest of us,  as Teddy suggests? 

I look at my own children, who are a gender but not able to procreate and still young enough that puberty hormones are not yet (or just barely) kicking in, and I see good in them that cannot be separated out from their genders.  Maybe it's a little of that in the afterlife?