JK Rowling steps in it (re: The Book of Mormon)

[smac97]

From the Deseret News: Perspective: What J.K. Rowling got wrong about Joseph Smith and the golden plates  / The ‘Harry Potter’ author tweeted that Joseph Smith never showed the golden plates to anyone. Here’s what the historical record indicates

Quote

“Harry Potter” series author J.K. Rowling tweeted Thursday about Joseph Smith, the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the “golden plates,” saying that “nobody else was allowed to look at them” besides Smith.

The claim that Smith didn’t allow anyone else to see the plates, from which he translated the Book of Mormon, is not a new one. Rowling later amended her statement to say that 11 people saw the plates after she went “to look it up.”

“The Book of Mormon” musical made this erroneous claim as well.

In the song “All-American Prophet,” the angel Moroni sings, “But don’t let anybody see these plates except for you.” Later in the musical, the dying Smith says, “Oh God, why are you letting me die without having me show people the plates? They’ll have no proof I was telling the truth or not.”

Ya gotta kinda wonder if JK Rowling came to this error by attending "The Book of Mormon" musical.

Ya gotta kinda also wonder just how many other people of substantial intellect and goodwill (as I believe JK Rowling to be) nevertheless harbor substantially ignorant and shallow perceptions about the Latter-day Saints.

Quote

This claim, however, is not historically accurate.

According to former Joseph Smith Papers editor and Oxford published author Larry E. Morris, “seventeen people reportedly saw or handled the plates (or both).”

Here is an overview of what the 17 people had to say about what American literary scholar Terryl Givens called “the pure physicality of the plates.” Morris references two other accounts of the plates, which he describes as “religious accounts,” including Mary Whitmer and Lyman E. Johnson.

The article goes on to briefly sketch the biographies of the 17 known/purported witnesses (as to, as Givens put it, "the pure physicality of the plates") :

• Lucy Mack Smith
• Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer
• Christian Whitmer, Hiram Page, Hyrum Smith, Jacob Whitmer, John Whitmer, Joseph Smith Sr., Peter Whitmer Jr. and Samuel H. Smith
• Emma Smith (examined the plates with a cloth covering them)
• William Smith
• Katharine Smith (hearsay)
• Josiah Stowell
• Alvah Beaman (hearsay)
• Joseph McKune Sr. (hearsay)

The article concludes:

Quote

Historians like Ann Taves have begun to discuss the plates in different ways due to the many accounts about their physical existence and how those around the plates acted. The issue, of course, remains a debate because according to Joseph Smith the plates were returned to the angel after he completed the translation of the Book of Mormon sometime in June 1829. But, beyond witness testimony there are other markers regarding the physicality of the plates. For example, Lucy Mack Smith’s history recalls when Joseph Smith dislocated his thumb while running with the plates. He asked his father and friend Joseph Knight Sr. to tend to his thumb after the incident.

Joseph Smith had also requested his brother Hyrum Smith get him a chest with a good lock on it. While this chest only housed the plates for a short period of time due to its poor fit, Martin Harris mentioned two other boxes that housed the plates. One of these boxes was made out of cherry wood, and Martin Harris in Tiffany’s Monthly stated that the cherry box was made for the purpose of holding the plates. Lucy Mack Smith had advised Joseph Smith to get a chest made for the purpose of storing the plates. Joseph Smith also used an “old Ontario glass-box” that had to be adjusted to fit the size of the plates. To paraphrase renowned historian Richard Bushman, those around Joseph Smith — and Joseph Smith himself — acted as if he had the plates.

And material evidence seems to indicate that he did.

I still love JK Rowling, but she really goofed on this.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I still love JK Rowling, but she really goofed on this.

She probably knows about as much about my religion as I do about hers.  I guess the difference is that I don't tweet about what she believes 🙂

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

She probably knows about as much about my religion as I do about hers.  I guess the difference is that I don't tweet about what she believes 🙂

...and maybe that if I did tweet about what JK Rowling believed no one would pay any attention. 

[Emily]

13 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

...and maybe that if I did tweet about what JK Rowling believed no one would pay any attention. 

You probably don't care enough about her religious beliefs to tweet about them.

The real question is, why does she care enough about our religion to bother tweeting about it? Curious minds want to know. 

Most LDS members don't have hang-ups about the Potter books being full of deviltry (a common claim from some Evangelical groups) so a fair number of members are included in her fan base, at least for the Harry Potter books.  But I'm not sure why being part of her fan base is enough of a reason to tweet about a religion. 

[ksfisher]

45 minutes ago, Emily said:

You probably don't care enough about her religious beliefs to tweet about them.

The real question is, why does she care enough about our religion to bother tweeting about it? Curious minds want to know. 

Most LDS members don't have hang-ups about the Potter books being full of deviltry (a common claim from some Evangelical groups) so a fair number of members are included in her fan base, at least for the Harry Potter books.  But I'm not sure why being part of her fan base is enough of a reason to tweet about a religion. 

It looks to me to me to be an off the cuff remark that not much thought was put into.  People say things like that all the time.  It's just now, with social media, people are making these off the cuff remarks and thousands of people are reading them.  While good things can happen because of social media, it mostly seems like a place for people to show off their ignorance. 

[Emily]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

It looks to me to me to be an off the cuff remark that not much thought was put into. 

I think you are right. Apparently, she's under fire for being "Transphobic" for making this comment: https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk-rowling-transgender-comments-controversy

Why she decided to use Joseph Smith as an example of someone who just wants you to accept what they saw without providing evidence, I have no idea - a fair number of her readers wouldn't even know who she was talking about, and he's hardly a good example given that he left behind a pretty hefty piece of very easy to examine evidence (regardless of whether or not you believe it's GOOD evidence.)  But that's what she was basically saying. 

I think those of you who postulated that she has seen the BOM Musical and got her information from that are likely right. 

The thread is popping though. A whole lot of members came out of the woodwork to point out that she made an error (most were being polite) and also a fair number of them said, "Hey! We like you. Why are you being mean to us?"  She might not have realized how many of her Twitter followers are LDS.  😄

 

 

[Emily]

3 minutes ago, Emily said:

Apparently, she's under fire for being "Transphobic" for making this comment: https://www.glamour.com/story/a-complete-breakdown-of-the-jk-rowling-transgender-comments-controversy

Actually, after further thought. Maybe she's just one really smart cookie.  Press got you under fire for being transphobic?  Throw them a "Mormon" issue instead!

[Emily]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

The claim that Smith didn’t allow anyone else to see the plates, from which he translated the Book of Mormon, is not a new one.

I've actually pondered why the physicality of the plates is such an important issue to church critics.  Even in the 18th century, there was this odd dichotomy of thought from contemporary critics: The plates don't exist, but let's figure out how we can steal them.  The plates don't exist, but they were made of tin. The plates don't exist, but the Mormons keep them hidden so no one can see what is really on them.  

Let's say everyone concedes that the plates physically existed? It's not an instant path to baptism. Critics can still question whether or not Joseph actually got them from an angel, or translated them, or if they were really made of gold.  Why go to such pains to question the mere existence of the plates and the veracity of the witnesses?

 

 

[MorningStar]

Yeah, the thing on Twitter is calling her a "TERF." Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. Just because she wrote something about how women should feel safe in bathrooms. I agree, so I guess I'm a TERF too. Nothing radical about wanting to feel safe though. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Emily said:

but let's figure out how we can steal them.

I’ve heard the story of Joseph running through the woods with would be thieves giving chase. How many other documented theft attempts are there? I honestly don’t know. No need to do work if you don’t either, I’m just curious. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

Yeah, the thing on Twitter is calling her a "TERF." Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. Just because she wrote something about how women should feel safe in bathrooms. I agree, so I guess I'm a TERF too. Nothing radical about wanting to feel safe though. 

Ah yes, the great bathroom issue.

My favorite chapter was the TERF from Germany who asked for videos of men self-pleasuring in women’s toilets as part of her campaign. Shortly afterwards she had to clarify that she was looking for “trans identified men”. Apparently it is fine when it is cis men doing it. LOL

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Ah yes, the great bathroom issue.

My favorite chapter was the TERF from Germany who asked for videos of men self-pleasuring in women’s toilets as part of her campaign. Shortly afterwards she had to clarify that she was looking for “trans identified men”. Apparently it is fine when it is cis men doing it. LOL

It’s a locker room debate and it is a real issue and women and girls have female only spaces for good reasons of safety. Penises should not be allowed in female only locker rooms. Perverts (trans or cis) take advantage of these policies. Quit mocking women and girls who don’t want to change in front of a biological male or be exposed to penises in a female only space. https://www.wcax.com/2022/09/28/randolph-high-school-investigating-gender-locker-room-dispute/ 

I love how are the voices of women and girls are completely ignored and dismissed. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by bsjkki

[teddyaware]

31 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

It’s a locker room debate and it is a real issue and women and girls have female only spaces for good reasons of safety. Penises should not be allowed in female only locker rooms. Perverts (trans or cis) take advantage of these policies. Quit mocking women and girls who don’t want to change in front of a biological male or be exposed to penises in a female only space. https://www.wcax.com/2022/09/28/randolph-high-school-investigating-gender-locker-room-dispute/ 

I love how are the voices of women and girls are completely ignored and dismissed. 

Nothing like trying to discuss issues of scripture based morality with the woke, modern-day Nehors, who for reasons that are beyond me appear to delight in mocking and perverting what they must know in their hearts is the right way of the Lord. I’ve had my my fill of it…

Edited October 1, 2022 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’ve heard the story of Joseph running through the woods with would be thieves giving chase. How many other documented theft attempts are there? I honestly don’t know. No need to do work if you don’t either, I’m just curious. 

Both Saints (see note #1) and Rough Stone Rolling provide a few references to this sort of behavior.  In Rough Stone Rolling, page 61, right after telling the story you mentioned, of Joseph being chased through the woods, Bushman provides another example:

Quote

Lucy Smith said the angel warned Joseph as the record was turned over to him that "wicked men" would "lay every plan and scheme that is possible to get it away from you, and if you do not take heed continually, they will succeed." Willard Chase's gang, for one, was still plotting to get possession. According to Lucy, Joseph kept the seerstone on his person to keep track of the plates. Alerted to an approaching danger, Joseph took up hearthstones in the west room and buried the box of plates there. They had scarcely replaced the stones when a collection of armed men rushed up to the house. Thinking quickly, Joseph threw open the doors, yelled loudly, and all the men in the house, including eleven-year-old Carlos, ran out in a fury. Surprised and disorganized, the mob fell back, ran for the woods, and disappeared. 12

Footnote 12 gives Lucy Mack Smith's 1853 Biography of Joseph Smith as a source (pages 106 and 108).  

There are other examples, but I'd need to find the references.

Edited October 1, 2022 by InCognitus

[The Nehor]

35 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

It’s a locker room debate and it is a real issue and women and girls have female only spaces for good reasons of safety. Penises should not be allowed in female only locker rooms. Perverts (trans or cis) take advantage of these policies. Quit mocking women and girls who don’t want to change in front of a biological male or be exposed to penises in a female only space. https://www.wcax.com/2022/09/28/randolph-high-school-investigating-gender-locker-room-dispute/ 

I love how are the voices of women and girls are completely ignored and dismissed. 

Generally the bullying tends to go the other way. Against the transgender kid.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Nothing like trying to discuss issues of scripture based morality with the woke, modern-day Nehors, who for reasons that are beyond me appear to delight in mocking and perverting what they must know in their hearts is the right way of the Lord. I’ve had my my fill of it…

Scripture is very clear on locker room and changing room etiquette.

The term “woke” has become meaningless. It is another fuzzy word that just means “stuff I don’t like”.

Edited October 1, 2022 by The Nehor

[bsjkki]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Generally the bullying tends to go the other way. Against the transgender kid.

I think providing a safe alternative for trans women is appropriate but penises don’t belong in women’s locker rooms. It creates a less safe environment for women and girls.

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, smac97 said:

From the Deseret News: Perspective: What J.K. Rowling got wrong about Joseph Smith and the golden plates  / The ‘Harry Potter’ author tweeted that Joseph Smith never showed the golden plates to anyone. Here’s what the historical record indicates

Ya gotta kinda wonder if JK Rowling came to this error by attending "The Book of Mormon" musical.

Ya gotta kinda also wonder just how many other people of substantial intellect and goodwill (as I believe JK Rowling to be) nevertheless harbor substantially ignorant and shallow perceptions about the Latter-day Saints.

The article goes on to briefly sketch the biographies of the 17 known/purported witnesses (as to, as Givens put it, "the pure physicality of the plates") :

• Lucy Mack Smith
• Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer
• Christian Whitmer, Hiram Page, Hyrum Smith, Jacob Whitmer, John Whitmer, Joseph Smith Sr., Peter Whitmer Jr. and Samuel H. Smith
• Emma Smith (examined the plates with a cloth covering them)
• William Smith
• Katharine Smith (hearsay)
• Josiah Stowell
• Alvah Beaman (hearsay)
• Joseph McKune Sr. (hearsay)

The article concludes:

I still love JK Rowling, but she really goofed on this.

Thanks,

-Smac

This just shows that most of the world does not know much about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and most do not care.  The only True and Living Church really has little impact on the wide wild world. 😏

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

This just shows that most of the world does not know much about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and most do not care.  The only True and Living Church really has little impact on the wide wild world. 😏

The irony here is that J.K. Rowling's ignorant comment and the correction to what she said is getting the attention of the "wide wild world" through the internet.  Now more and more people will know that "The Book of Mormon" musical got it wrong, and that there were really several witnesses to seeing the golden plates.

[MorningStar]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Ah yes, the great bathroom issue.

My favorite chapter was the TERF from Germany who asked for videos of men self-pleasuring in women’s toilets as part of her campaign. Shortly afterwards she had to clarify that she was looking for “trans identified men”. Apparently it is fine when it is cis men doing it. LOL

I have no idea what that’s about. All I know is I don’t want to be in a bathroom with “Jessica Yaniv” or anyone like him with his sick period fetish while I’m changing my feminine  hygiene products in a stall with large gaps. I don’t believe he identifies as a woman. He’s a predator who’s that desperate to be in women’s spaces. 

And this? This can’t be real. 🤡🌎
 

 

[SteveO]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Scripture is very clear on locker room and changing room etiquette.

The term “woke” has become meaningless. It is another fuzzy word that just means “stuff I don’t like”.

So have the terms “phobia,” “nazi,” and “racism”.

Edited October 1, 2022 by SteveO

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, SteveO said:

So have the terms “phobia,” “nazi,” and “racism”.

Nope.

Edited October 1, 2022 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, MorningStar said:

I have no idea what that’s about. All I know is I don’t want to be in a bathroom with “Jessica Yaniv” or anyone like him with his sick period fetish while I’m changing my feminine  hygiene products in a stall with large gaps. I don’t believe he identifies as a woman. He’s a predator who’s that desperate to be in women’s spaces. 

And this? This can’t be real. 🤡🌎
 

 

Watched "Shark Tank" last night and saw a wonderful human that was trans man. I hope you could watch and see that not all trans people are like the guy in the video. But I'm sure you know that, but wanted to share. But shoot, can't figure out how to show it but maybe on your end hopefully you can find it. It's September 30th episode.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Tacenda

[SteveO]

19 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Nope.

Must have gotten me confused with someone on Twitter advocating for 2022’s hottest new trend, “The Paint Diet”.  
 

Probably was a super sick “own” and got tons of “likes” though.  

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, SteveO said:

Must have gotten me confused with someone on Twitter advocating for 2022’s hottest new trend, “The Paint Diet”.  
 

Probably was a super sick “own” and got tons of “likes” though.  

That was what we call a “joke”.

Edited October 1, 2022 by The Nehor