New online Book: Mother in Heaven: An Initial Compendium of Echoes and Evidences

[Kevin Christensen]

I just got an invitation from the authors to take a look.  It's five hundred pages, looking at a wide range of sources, and includes some fascinating personal testimonies at the very end.

https://www.motherinheaven.com/

Worth a close look.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I just got an invitation from the authors to take a look.  It's five hundred pages, looking at a wide range of sources, and includes some fascinating personal testimonies at the very end.

https://www.motherinheaven.com/

Worth a close look.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Granted you don't live near them, but do you know them outside of this book? I read the About Us, and it was very nice, but didn't tell me much about them in the sense of where they are coming from in respect of the Gospel and the Church. I guess I'm wondering what qualifications they might have -- an odd thing for me to ask, given that my "qualifications" to write a short book about a castle here in England are about nil, but nevertheless I'm doing it.

[mrmarklin]

She doesn't look old enough.🤣

[Kevin Christensen]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Granted you don't live near them, but do you know them outside of this book? I read the About Us, and it was very nice, but didn't tell me much about them in the sense of where they are coming from in respect of the Gospel and the Church. I guess I'm wondering what qualifications they might have -- an odd thing for me to ask, given that my "qualifications" to write a short book about a castle here in England are about nil, but nevertheless I'm doing it.

I just got an email out of the blue from Victor, and browsed the book, and am very impressed at the gathering of a wide range of important sources on an important topic in a very usable and friendly format.  What qualifies them is that they did the work in a responsible and wide ranging way.   My own qualifications for having published over 40 LDS themed essays over the years is that I have published over 40 essays over the years.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I just got an email out of the blue from Victor, and browsed the book, and am very impressed at the gathering of a wide range of important sources on an important topic in a very usable and friendly format.  What qualifies them is that they did the work in a responsible and wide ranging way.   My own qualifications for having published over 40 LDS themed essays over the years is that I have published over 40 essays over the years.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Thanks! Wasn't doubting your qualifications. I don't know who these people are, though. However, their coming to my attention through your good offices does lend them a certain cachet.

[Ginger Snaps]

On 9/14/2022 at 12:08 PM, mrmarklin said:

She doesn't look old enough.🤣

She doesn't, and this actually bothers me. 

In the rare instances that God the Father is portrayed at all, He is portrayed as older with white hair and beard--traits we tend to associate with wisdom in our society.  And here we are portraying God the Mother as young, slim, and pretty, because elderly, white-haired women aren't considered beautiful or valuable to society at large.  I wish they'd re-consider the cover art.

I'll probably still look into the book though.  This is a topic that fascinates me. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Ginger Snaps

[The Nehor]

29 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

She doesn't, and this actually bothers me. 

In the rare instances that God the Father is portrayed at all, He is portrayed as older with white hair and beard--traits we tend to associate with wisdom in our society.  And here we are portraying God the Mother as young, slim, and pretty, because elderly, white-haired women aren't considered beautiful or valuable to society at large.  I wish they'd re-consider the cover art.

I'll probably still look into the book though.  This is a topic that fascinates me. 

I think we should make the Father younger. Old age is a mortal thing. Age is cruel with its only redeeming value being age means less time left on this hell-rock.

[Bernard Gui]

Weren’t we recently advised by the General Authorities to let this go?

Quote

Very little has been revealed about Mother in Heaven, but what we do know is summarized in a gospel topic found in our Gospel Library application. Once you have read what is there, you will know everything that I know about the subject. I wish I knew more. You too may still have questions and want to find more answers. Seeking greater understanding is an important part of our spiritual development, but please be cautious. Reason cannot replace revelation.

Speculation will not lead to greater spiritual knowledge, but it can lead us to deception or divert our focus from what has been revealed. For example, the Savior taught His disciples, “Always pray unto the Father in my name.” We follow this pattern and direct our worship to our Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ and do not pray to Heavenly Mother.
Elder Dale Renlund, April 2022

Ever since God appointed prophets, they have been authorized to speak on His behalf. But they do not pronounce doctrines fabricated “of [their] own mind” or teach what has not been revealed. Consider the words of the Old Testament prophet Balaam, who was offered a bribe to curse the Israelites to benefit Moab. Balaam said, “If [the king of Moab] would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the Lord my God, to do less or more.” Latter-day prophets are similarly constrained. Demanding revelation from God is both arrogant and unproductive. Instead, we wait on the Lord and His timetable to reveal His truths through the means that He has established.

This is everything we know:

Quote

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all human beings, male and female, are beloved spirit children of heavenly parents, a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. This understanding is rooted in scriptural and prophetic teachings about the nature of God, our relationship to Deity, and the godly potential of men and women. The doctrine of a Heavenly Mother is a cherished and distinctive belief among Latter-day Saints.
While there is no record of a formal revelation to Joseph Smith on this doctrine, some early Latter-day Saint women recalled that he personally taught them about a Mother in Heaven. The earliest published references to the doctrine appeared shortly after Joseph Smith’s death in 1844, in documents written by his close associates. The most notable expression of the idea is found in a poem by Eliza R. Snow, entitled “My Father in Heaven” and now known as the hymn “O My Father.” This text declares: “In the heav’ns are parents single? / No, the thought makes reason stare; / Truth is reason—truth eternal / Tells me I’ve a mother there.”

Subsequent Church leaders have affirmed the existence of a Mother in Heaven. In 1909, the First Presidency taught that “all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity.” Susa Young Gates, a prominent leader in the Church, wrote in 1920 that Joseph Smith’s visions and teachings revealed the truth that “the divine Mother, [is] side by side with the divine Father.” And in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World,” issued in 1995, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles declared, “Each [person] is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.”

Prophets have taught that our heavenly parents work together for the salvation of the human family. “We are part of a divine plan designed by Heavenly Parents who love us,” taught Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. President Harold B. Lee stated, “We forget that we have a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother who are even more concerned, probably, than our earthly father and mother, and that influences from beyond are constantly working to try to help us when we do all we can.”

Latter-day Saints direct their worship to Heavenly Father, in the name of Christ, and do not pray to Heavenly Mother. In this, they follow the pattern set by Jesus Christ, who taught His disciples to “always pray unto the Father in my name.” Latter-day Saints are taught to pray to Heavenly Father, but as President Gordon B. Hinckley said, “The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her.” Indeed, as Elder Rudger Clawson wrote, “We honor woman when we acknowledge Godhood in her eternal Prototype.”

As with many other truths of the gospel, our present knowledge about a Mother in Heaven is limited. Nevertheless, we have been given sufficient knowledge to appreciate the sacredness of this doctrine and to comprehend the divine pattern established for us as children of heavenly parents. Latter-day Saints believe that this pattern is reflected in Paul’s statement that “neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” Men and women cannot be exalted without each other. Just as we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. As Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said, “Our theology begins with heavenly parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like them.”

 

[Calm]

Is the Father portrayed generally that old or does he just have white hair?

Edited September 16, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Weren’t we recently advised by the General Authorities to let this go?

This is everything we know:

 

He didn’t say let it go, he said be cautious. I don’t think collecting everything ever said in scripture or by church leaders is being incautious as long as one recognizes the difference between speculation and revelation. 

[Kevin Christensen]

There is a great scene in Brecht's Galileo where an Inquisitor refuses to look through a telescope.  Here is one view through a telescope that brings common and persistent myths about Heavenly Mother into focus. "The Other Half of Heaven: Debunking Myths about Heavenly Mother" by Warren Aston.

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/article-1-11842/

When offered a 500 page book for which I began this thread, written by devoted and faithful LDS, I think that taking a look is far more likely to produce an expanded mind and enlarged soul than supposing without examination that we already know everything worth knowing.  

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited September 16, 2022 by Kevin Christensen

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

He didn’t say let it go, he said be cautious. I don’t think collecting everything ever said in scripture or by church leaders is being incautious as long as one recognizes the difference between speculation and revelation. 

He was more emphatic in the regional conference we attended with him., but of course that was not General Conference. 500 pages is a lot of scriptures and quotes that were boiled down to a couple of pages. 

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

There is a great scene in Brecht's Galileo where an Inquisitor refuses to look through a telescope.  Here is one view through a telescope that brings common and persistent myths about Heavenly Mother into focus. "The Other Half of Heaven: Debunking Myths about Heavenly Mother" by Warren Aston.

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/article-1-11842/

When offered a 500 page book for which I began this thread, written by devoted and faithful LDS, I think that taking a look is far more likely to produce an expanded mind and enlarged soul than supposing without examination that we already know everything worth knowing.  

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I get the dig, thank you. When an apostle gives a warning, it might be worth giving it a cursory glance. Perhaps the general leaders of the Church will read it so they can expand their minds and enlarge their souls. I know people who have left the Church partly over this issue. I’m sure you do, too.

Quote

You too may still have questions and want to find more answers. Seeking greater understanding is an important part of our spiritual development, but please be cautious. Reason cannot replace revelation. Speculation will not lead to greater spiritual knowledge, but it can lead us to deception or divert our focus from what has been revealed.

There is a great line in a joke about Adam and the forbidden fruit. “Um, excuse me, but could you remind me which fruit we’re not supposed to eat?”

Edited September 17, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Is the Father portrayed generally that old or does he just have white hair?

Probably depends the artist, but I would say more just with white hair and physical features that are either hard to suss out or look fairly ageless. (somewhere between 30’s-50’s, usually)

 

with luv, 

BD 
 

 

[CA Steve]

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Woman behind the curtain?

[Kevin Christensen]

On 9/16/2022 at 6:28 PM, Bernard Gui said:

I get the dig, thank you. When an apostle gives a warning, it might be worth giving it a cursory glance. Perhaps the general leaders of the Church will read it so they can expand their minds and enlarge their souls. I know people who have left the Church partly over this issue. I’m sure you do, too.

There is a great line in a joke about Adam and the forbidden fruit. “Um, excuse me, but could you remind me which fruit we’re not supposed to eat?”

The authorities ask us to read scripture, and to seek out of the best books words of wisdom.

A good example of what an apostle warns us about would be Janice Allred, who raised a controversy with a Dialogue article that I notice was completely speculative.  No research, all intuition, reporting what we should know if we knew anything.  Rather than opening the windows of heaven, she discovered a distortion mirror and saw Heavenly Mother as a Giant Angry Feminist looking back.  Decades back I read an archive of her essays, including one in which she reported a revelation from a Heavenly Mother telling her that the LDS apostles were all apostates and she should be in charge.   I never saw any of her defenders mention that article.

But consider these two passages in scripture: 

From D&C 1:26

And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

Mosiah 8:20

O how marvelous are the works of the Lord, and how long doth he suffer with his people; yea, and how blind and impenetrable are the understandings of the children of men; for they will not seek wisdom, neither do they desire that she should rule over them!

There is a huge difference between seeking out of the best books, and seeking wisdom by study and by faith, and either speculating groundlessly, as Allred did, and announcing without inquiry that there is nothing to see.   When I was young I heard a Bishop solemnly say that the reason that we didn't know more about Heavenly Mother was that The Father wanted to protect her from us profaning her, as though he was a Protective Victorian male and she was a frail and delicate flower, rather than a Goddess.  That is an instance of Nibley's Gas Law of Learning.  "Any amount of knowledge will expand to fill any amount of ignorance no matter how large."

What I learned from The Hebrew Goddess, and Did God Have a Wife? and The Mother of the Lord vol 1, and various other articles by Kevin Barney, Alyson Von Feldt, and Aston, and Val Larsen, and Daniel Peterson, and Paulson and Paulido in BYU Studies and others on topic involves seeking and reporting substance found, and providing sources.  That is what his new book provides, and justifies its existence.  Genuine seeking, and substantial sources.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited September 18, 2022 by Kevin Christensen

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/17/2022 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Christensen said:

The authorities ask us to read scripture, and to seek out of the best books words of wisdom.

A good example of what an apostle warns us about would be Janice Allred, who raised a controversy with a Dialogue article that I notice was completely speculative.  No research, all intuition, reporting what we should know if we knew anything.  Rather than opening the windows of heaven, she discovered a distortion mirror and saw Heavenly Mother as a Giant Angry Feminist looking back.  Decades back I read an archive of her essays, including one in which she reported a revelation from a Heavenly Mother telling her that the LDS apostles were all apostates and she should be in charge.   I never saw any of her defenders mention that article.

But consider these two passages in scripture: 

From D&C 1:26

And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

Mosiah 8:20

O how marvelous are the works of the Lord, and how long doth he suffer with his people; yea, and how blind and impenetrable are the understandings of the children of men; for they will not seek wisdom, neither do they desire that she should rule over them!

There is a huge difference between seeking out of the best books, and seeking wisdom by study and by faith, and either speculating groundlessly, as Allred did, and annoucing without inquiry that there is nothing to see.   When I was young I heard a Bishop solemnly say that the reason that we didn't know more about Heavenly Mother was that The Father wanted to protect her from profaning her, as though he was a Protective Victorian male and she was a frail and delicate flower, rather than a Goddess.  That is an instance of Nibley's Gas Law of Learning.  "Any amount of knowledge will expand to fill any amount of ignorance no matter how large."

What I learned from The Hebrew Goddess, and Did God Have a Wife? and The Mother of the Lord vol 1, and various other articles by Kevin Barney, Alyson Von Feldt, and Aston, and Val Larsen, and Daniel Peterson, and Paulson and Paulido in BYU Studies and others on topic involves seeking and reporting substance found, and providing sources.  That is what his new book provides, and justifies its existence.  Genuine seeking, and substantial sources.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

And the journey has been wonderful, hasn’t it? You are preaching to the choir, good brother. I have sought understanding for decades including from the brethren you mention. Surely it is a great book, but as the the days dwindle down to a precious few, I’m not eager to spend time with yet another book on something about which very little has been revealed. Forgive and be patient with my skepticism, but I agree with Elder Redlund on this topic: “it can lead us to deception or divert our focus from what has been revealed.”

Edited September 18, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And the journey has been wonderful, hasn’t it? You are preaching to the choir, good brother. I have sought understanding for decades including from the brethren you mention. Surely it is is a great book, but as the the days dwindle down to a precious few, I’m not eager to spend time with yet another book on something about which very little has been revealed. Forgive and be patient with my skepticism, but I agree with Elder Redlund on this topic: “it can lead us to deception or divert our focus from what has been revealed.”

The problem with his statement is more has been revealed than is contained in the gospel topic article.

For example the article says "While there is no record of a formal revelation to Joseph Smith on this doctrine, some early Latter-day Saint women recalled that he personally taught them about a Mother in Heaven."

But then it doesn't provide their recollections of his teachings or what was taught.  Speculation is problematic.  Personal research is not.

[BlueDreams]

12 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

And the journey has been wonderful, hasn’t it? You are preaching to the choir, good brother. I have sought understanding for decades including from the brethren you mention. Surely it is is a great book, but as the the days dwindle down to a precious few, I’m not eager to spend time with yet another book on something about which very little has been revealed. Forgive and be patient with my skepticism, but I agree with Elder Redlund on this topic: “it can lead us to deception or divert our focus from what has been revealed.”

It technically could but doesn’t have to. In some ways learning more about HM from good sources reaffirms and builds my faith in other doctrines and things revealed, both personally and generally. I’m on pg 26 of the book and to me it reinforces the principle ideas around apostasy and corruption that occurred. Also gives another means to value and connect to books of scriptures. What I’ve seen from those that focusing on the idea of HM can lead to “deception or divert our focus” is more when there’s already serious concerns and diversions that people then use or incorporate HM in. It doesn’t just naturally devolve because one has a particular affinity, experience, or desire to learn more on this subject. 
 

 

with luv, 

BD 

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

It technically could but doesn’t have to. In some ways learning more about HM from good sources reaffirms and builds my faith in other doctrines and things revealed, both personally and generally. I’m on pg 26 of the book and to me it reinforces the principle ideas around apostasy and corruption that occurred. Also gives another means to value and connect to books of scriptures. What I’ve seen from those that focusing on the idea of HM can lead to “deception or divert our focus” is more when there’s already serious concerns and diversions that people then use or incorporate HM in. It doesn’t just naturally devolve because one has a particular affinity, experience, or desire to learn more on this subject. 

with luv, 

BD 

I’m very glad you are enjoying it. Not my cup of sagebrush tea. 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/17/2022 at 9:56 AM, JLHPROF said:

The problem with his statement is more has been revealed than is contained in the gospel topic article.

For example the article says "While there is no record of a formal revelation to Joseph Smith on this doctrine, some early Latter-day Saint women recalled that he personally taught them about a Mother in Heaven."

But then it doesn't provide their recollections of his teachings or what was taught.  Speculation is problematic.  Personal research is not.

I have absolutely no problem with his statement.

I recall the great jokes we used to make about topics discussed only in High Priest quorums. When it comes to doctrine, I like to have records of formal revelation, but that is probably not a popular attitude for this particular subject. I can wait for the revelations to come, but as the days dwindle down to a precious few perhaps I will greet them I’m their Royal courts on high.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/16/2022 at 12:02 PM, Ginger Snaps said:

She doesn't, and this actually bothers me. 

In the rare instances that God the Father is portrayed at all, He is portrayed as older with white hair and beard--traits we tend to associate with wisdom in our society.  And here we are portraying God the Mother as young, slim, and pretty, because elderly, white-haired women aren't considered beautiful or valuable to society at large.  I wish they'd re-consider the cover art.

I'll probably still look into the book though.  This is a topic that fascinates me. 

On 9/16/2022 at 12:33 PM, The Nehor said:

I think we should make the Father younger. Old age is a mortal thing. Age is cruel with its only redeeming value being age means less time left on this hell-rock.

D&C 110:

Quote

1 The veil was taken from our minds, and the eyes of our understanding were opened.
2 We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber.
3 His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

Quote

President McKay had on a white suit, and seated next to him was his wife. He asked for each of us to come forward and tell him about ourselves. As I went forward, he held out his hand and held mine, and as I told him about my life and my family, he looked deeply into my eyes. After we had finished, he leaned back in his chair and reached for his wife's hand and said, " Now, young women, I would like you to meet my queen. " There seated next to him was his wife, Emma Ray McKay. Although she did not wear a crown of sparkling diamonds, nor was she seated on a throne, I knew she was a true queen. Her white hair was her crown, and her pure eyes sparkled like jewels. As President and Sister McKay spoke of their family and their life together, their intertwined hands spoke volumes about their love. Joy radiated from their faces. Hers was a beauty that can not be purchased. It came from years of seeking the best gifts, becoming well educated, seeking knowledge by study and also by faith. It came from years of hard work, of faithfully enduring trials with optimism, trust, strength, and courage. It came from her unwavering devotion and fidelity to her husband, her family, and the Lord. On that fall day in Huntsville, Utah, I was reminded of my divine identity, and I learned about what I now call " deep beauty " the kind of beauty that shines from the inside out. Elaine Dalton, 2010

Quote

^{Proverbs 16:31} White hair is a crown of glory and is seen most among the godly.

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

D&C 110:

 

Hair being white on angelic beings is not a commentary on their age. Probably more a commentary on how bright angelic beings are.

Being able to sense greatness and beauty in an elderly person is not a commentary on what resurrected bodies will look like.

I am not going to take a literal proverb as a statement on the resurrection either. I am not even sure if the proverb is saying that living to old age is proof you are godly or that whitened hair is somehow a mark of godliness. I don’t buy either. Honestly sounds like a self-serving thing old people might say like how age begets wisdom. Age can beget wisdom but I have known aged white haired people that are utter fools and I am not talking about dementia. They just dumb. Just like a lot of the young and middle-aged.

Edited September 18, 2022 by The Nehor

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hair being white on angelic beings is not a commentary on their age. Probably more a commentary on how bright angelic beings are.

Being able to sense greatness and beauty in an elderly person is not a commentary on what resurrected bodies will look like.

I am not going to take a literal proverb as a statement on the resurrection either. I am not even sure if the proverb is saying that living to old age is proof you are godly or that whitened hair is somehow a mark of godliness. I don’t buy either. Honestly sounds like a self-serving thing old people might say like how age begets wisdom. Age can beget wisdom but I have known aged white haired people that are utter fools and I am not talking about dementia. They just dumb. Just like a lot of the young and middle-aged.

I enjoy serving myself now that I’m old, being as us graybeards get no respect from you whippersnappers. Just the other day I was in Lowes and noticed they charge for bags of dirt and cow poo…things that were free when I was a kid. 

Memorize these. You will need them for future reference.

Quote

“Those who respect the elderly pave their own road toward success.” – African proverb

“An elderly person at home [is like] a living golden treasure.” – Chinese saying

“Grow old along with me! The best is yet to be, the last of life, for which the first was made.” – Robert Browning

“... the gray hair of experience is the splendor of the old.” -Proverbs 20:29

“Those who are older should speak, for wisdom comes of old age.” Job 32:7

“Rise in the presence of the aged and honor the elderly face-to-face. Fear your God. I am the LORD.” -Leviticus 19:32

“Old age is not for sissies.” -My mother, Prudentissima Gui

 

The Ancient  of Days…

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by Bernard Gui