Report on alcohol consumption

[Stargazer]

On 8/30/2022 at 6:16 PM, jkwilliams said:

That seems wise to me. I hardly ever drink alcohol, and it's always just beer. I can count how many beers I've had this year on one hand. I'm not too worried about killing off those whatever-you-call-em cells, you know the ones in my head. 

According to my understanding of the Word of Wisdom, beer is a "mild drink", and is OK. 

But I follow the church guidelines on the WoW as it is generally understood anyway. So beer is verboten for me. I'm not enamored with the tastes, as it turns out, so I'm not particularly heartbroken. In my gentile days I rather liked wine, though, and I do miss that a little.

[Stargazer]

On 8/30/2022 at 6:02 PM, Teancum said:

But that does not mean the WoW had any more insite than any other temperance movement.

You know what? Maybe you're right. But it doesn't mean that the WoW didn't come from God.

I'm glad for the WoW, though, however it arrived. I'm pretty sure I would have ended up an alcoholic without it. I believe I have a genetic predisposition for it.

[Stargazer]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:45 PM, The Nehor said:

But the Word of Wisdom says mild beer is okay so who knows?

It's only a recent reinterpretation of the Word of Wisdom that make it not okay. I don't like beer anyway, so it doesn't bother me. Some people seem to glorify it, though, so that's an obvious case of "tastes differ."

On 8/30/2022 at 9:45 PM, The Nehor said:

Also why is the Word of Wisdom only a temporary commandment if alcohol is always bad. So confused.

The word of wisdom itself says that it is "...showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days".

So, obviously alcohol isn't always bad. Just like eating pork isn't always bad. But they can be bad (or in other words, "proscribed") during certain periods for reasons the Lord may or may not articulate.

Does this relieve you confusion any?

Edited September 1, 2022 by Stargazer
sp

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Missionary: "Alcohol isn't good for you - the WoW pegged it a long time ago!"

Dude: "Untrue.  I drink alcohol specifically for the health benefits."

Missionary: "And what would those health benefits be?"

Dude: "For one thing, it keeps me from being Mormon."

LOL!

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Seriously though, alcohol will always be with the human race.  No matter how bad alcohol is eventually shown to be, no matter how much the cultural winds turn against it, there'll always be alcohol.

Fun bit of trivia: Remember covid shutdown, where only "critical businesses" were allowed to be open?  Not a lot of news covered it, but pretty much all the governments had gun stores and liquor stores on the list of critical businesses.

According to the Word of Wisdom, by implication it will not apply after the Millennium starts. Unless the term "the last days" includes the Millennium, too. I don't think it does, but I'm not entirely sure.

[blackstrap]

To me, the last days include the millenium as well as the little season where Satan is loosed again and then the earth is renewed. it certainly could be argued that the last days just refer to the time before Christ returns. Maybe there are 2 last days. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Not a lot of news covered it, but pretty much all the governments had gun stores and liquor stores on the list of critical businesses.

Liquor stores unfortunately make sense because if you are worried about your hospitals being overfilled, you don’t want a number of alcoholics in withdrawal or poisoning themselves trying alternatives.  Gun stores otoh….

[Calm]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Seriously though, alcohol will always be with the human race.  No matter how bad alcohol is eventually shown to be, no matter how much the cultural winds turn against it, there'll always be alcohol.

I have read, but haven’t fact-checked, that the only places on earth where alcohol was not invented and quickly adopted early on was where there was the kava drink.  Supposedly the side effects are not as bad, no physical addiction apparently, but can still be dangerous (sounds like it is closer to cannabis than alcohol in effects, but I haven’t looked at it much).  Life has always been hard and artificial forms of relaxation will always be sought out as an easy solution. 

https://adf.org.au/drug-facts/kava/

[Stargazer]

34 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

To me, the last days include the millenium as well as the little season where Satan is loosed again and then the earth is renewed. it certainly could be argued that the last days just refer to the time before Christ returns. Maybe there are 2 last days. 

Perhaps there's the last days, and then there's the very last days! Kind of like a progressively better sale.

[blackstrap]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Kind of like a progressively better sale.

Hurry, hurry, last chance , get your lamp oil now before we close . 

[why me]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:23 PM, Rain said:

I can tell you I have had a life time of struggle because of how consumption of sugar was taught to me as a child and teen diabetic.  I wish rather than telling me not to eat it and that it was bad and harmful they instead taught me that is raises blood sugar and how to watch how I feel when eating every kind of food.  Of course when I first became diabetic all we had was inaccurate urine testing, but just helping me listen to how I feel after each thing I ate would have completely changed things for me.

Instead it was "you can't have sugar".  "If you have sugar you will get kidney disease and die."  "If you have sugar you will lose toes and feet."

 

 It is much better now. One can have a candy bar, just compensate the necessary insulin dosage. Or keep the body moving to burn it off. In the past everything was measured, now one can have many 'free foods' without it raising the blood sugar. And of course, diabetics should never drink alcohol because if the blood sugar goes low enough to cause problems, people will think that the person is drunk because of alcohol on the breath.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Perhaps there's the last days, and then there's the very last days! Kind of like a progressively better sale.

The Penultimate Days

[Rain]

50 minutes ago, why me said:

 It is much better now. One can have a candy bar, just compensate the necessary insulin dosage. Or keep the body moving to burn it off. In the past everything was measured, now one can have many 'free foods' without it raising the blood sugar. And of course, diabetics should never drink alcohol because if the blood sugar goes low enough to cause problems, people will think that the person is drunk because of alcohol on the breath.

I know how they teach now, but I had a good 10 years on my youth where I was taught differently and that's one reason why it has stuck so badly.  Intellectually I knew the way they teach now was much better, but I couldn't get past the emotional problems of when I first learned.  It wasn't till I heard about Intuitive Eating that I started to get past that emotional eating.  I still have quite a ways to go, but I have the tools to get there.  Now if only doctors would quit being so down on carbs...

[jkwilliams]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

What I am 'suggesting' are the actual words of Brigham Young spoken to the Saints in 1867. I can provide heaps more quotes if you'd like -- including Brigham calling out bishops and other leaders for not practising what he and the other apostles were teaching ('presenting') -- but I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to argue with the historical record. 

When I worked for the church, I was involved in editing a new translator’s edition of the “triple combination.” A particular general authority wanted to put a footnote in D&C 89 explaining that Brigham Young made the Word of Wisdom a commandment based on exactly the kinds of quotes you’ve provided. I was tasked with going down to the historical library to verify this claim. Brigham Young did say those things, but it’s not helpful to impose a present understanding of the Word of Wisdom on what he said, nor is it warranted to call his statements commandments.

The WoW at that time was taught as an avoidance of those substances or use of them in moderation. For example, an 1874 circular from John Young of the First Presidency argued against “frequent use of wine and spiritous liquors” among members of the United Order. Also in 1874 The First Presidency wrote to the leaders of St. George United Order that “inasmuch as some continue the use of tobacco, and as it is good for sick cattle and planted in coddling moth, it is recommended that enough be raised to at least supply our own wants.”

To quote LDS historian Paul Peterson:

“In summary, a consideration of the evidence would suggest the following: (1) Word of Wisdom observance was not mandatory during the 1860’s and 1870’s and Brigham Young never made it a test of fellowship. (2) A brief and possibly temporary improvement in adhereance [sic] took place in the late 60’s and early 70’s. (3) Mormons were temperate and moderate but not abstinent.”

John Taylor initiated a reemphasis of the Word of Wisdom as part of a more general “reformation” in 1883-84.  He had the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve commit to adherence. Wilford Woodruff noted: “We have come to the conclusion that we will more fully observe the word of wisdom, as we have all been negligent upon that point.”

It was not until after the Manifesto that adherence to the WoW became a requirement for bishops and other priesthood leaders. Wilford Woodruff said in 1894, “If there are any of these leading men who cannot refrain from using tobacco or liquor in violation of the Word of Wisdom, let them resign and others take their places. As leaders of Israel, we have no business to indulge in these things.”

And it didn’t formally become a temple recommend requirement until the 1930 general handbook. The Journal History of the Church recorded in 1898: “President Woodruff said he regarded the Word of Wisdom in its entirety as given of the Lord for the Latter-day Saints, but he did not think that Bishops should withhold recommends from persons who did not adhere strictly to it.”

President Grant seems to be the first to promote the WoW as binding for all members. “I have met any number of people who have said the Word of Wisdom is not a command from the Lord, that it is not given by way of commandment. But the Word of Wisdom is the will of the Lord and the Lord says in the words that I have just read that it is not meet that we should be commanded in all things. If you love your neighbor as yourself, if you love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength, does he need to command?”

Needless to say, the footnote was not approved because there was no historical evidence that Brigham Young had made it a commandment.  Besides, if you’re going to insist on dating the “commandment,” you’re about 16 years late. Here’s Brigham Young in 1851, when he “called on all the sisters … [and] all the boys who were under ninety years of age who would covenant to leave off the use of tobacco, whisky, and all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom, to manifest it [by raising the right hand].”

Obviously the Word of Wisdom is binding on church members today, but how it became so is a rather long, gradual process. It just doesn’t work to put a definite date on the “commandment.” 

Here's a good summary:

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6038&context=etd

Edited September 1, 2022 by jkwilliams

[jkwilliams]

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

According to my understanding of the Word of Wisdom, beer is a "mild drink", and is OK. 

But I follow the church guidelines on the WoW as it is generally understood anyway. So beer is verboten for me. I'm not enamored with the tastes, as it turns out, so I'm not particularly heartbroken. In my gentile days I rather liked wine, though, and I do miss that a little.

I always did follow the Word of Wisdom. I didn't try coffee until about 6 months after my loss of belief, and it was another 2 years before I tried alcohol. I went out to dinner with a fellow apostate, who was from Scotland, and he ordered us each a pint of Guinness. He said if I liked Guinness, I'd like pretty much any beer. I have no interest in tobacco or drugs. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Meadowchik]

20 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

When I worked for the church, I was involved in editing a new translator’s edition of the “triple combination.” A particular general authority wanted to put a footnote in D&C 89 explaining that Brigham Young made the Word of Wisdom a commandment based on exactly the kinds of quotes you’ve provided. I was tasked with going down to the historical library to verify this claim. Brigham Young did say those things, but it’s not helpful to impose a present understanding of the Word of Wisdom on what he said, nor is it warranted to call his statements commandments.

The WoW at that time was taught as an avoidance of those substances or use of them in moderation. For example, an 1874 circular from John Young of the First Presidency argued against “frequent use of wine and spiritous liquors” among members of the United Order. Also in 1874 The First Presidency wrote to the leaders of St. George United Order that “inasmuch as some continue the use of tobacco, and as it is good for sick cattle and planted in coddling moth, it is recommended that enough be raised to at least supply our own wants.”

To quote LDS historian Paul Peterson:

“In summary, a consideration of the evidence would suggest the following: (1) Word of Wisdom observance was not mandatory during the 1860’s and 1870’s and Brigham Young never made it a test of fellowship. (2) A brief and possibly temporary improvement in adhereance [sic] took place in the late 60’s and early 70’s. (3) Mormons were temperate and moderate but not abstinent.”

John Taylor initiated a reemphasis of the Word of Wisdom as part of a more general “reformation” in 1883-84.  He had the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve commit to adherence. Wilford Woodruff noted: “We have come to the conclusion that we will more fully observe the word of wisdom, as we have all been negligent upon that point.”

It was not until after the Manifesto that adherence to the WoW became a requirement for bishops and other priesthood leaders. Wilford Woodruff said in 1894, “If there are any of these leading men who cannot refrain from using tobacco or liquor in violation of the Word of Wisdom, let them resign and others take their places. As leaders of Israel, we have no business to indulge in these things.”

And it didn’t formally become a temple recommend requirement until the 1930 general handbook. The Journal History of the Church recorded in 1898: “President Woodruff said he regarded the Word of Wisdom in its entirety as given of the Lord for the Latter-day Saints, but he did not think that Bishops should withhold recommends from persons who did not adhere strictly to it.”

President Grant seems to be the first to promote the WoW as binding for all members. “I have met any number of people who have said the Word of Wisdom is not a command from the Lord, that it is not given by way of commandment. But the Word of Wisdom is the will of the Lord and the Lord says in the words that I have just read that it is not meet that we should be commanded in all things. If you love your neighbor as yourself, if you love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength, does he need to command?”

Needless to say, the footnote was not approved because there was no historical evidence that Brigham Young had made it a commandment.  Besides, if you’re going to insist on dating the “commandment,” you’re about 16 years late. Here’s Brigham Young in 1851, when he “called on all the sisters … [and] all the boys who were under ninety years of age who would covenant to leave off the use of tobacco, whisky, and all things mentioned in the Word of Wisdom, to manifest it [by raising the right hand].”

Obviously the Word of Wisdom is binding on church members today, but how it became so is a rather long, gradual process. It just doesn’t work to put a definite date on the “commandment.” 

Here's a good summary:

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6038&context=etd

Well done. Would you agree that it's also worth noting that the original revelation about it coincided with a contemporary temperance movement outwith the early church members themselves?

Edited September 2, 2022 by Meadowchik

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Well done. Would you agree that it's also worth noting that the original revelation about it coincided with a contemporary temperance movement out with the early church members themselves?

Yes. It is likewise not coincidental that the church got serious about the WoW around the time of Prohibition. 

It’s always tempting to want simple answers to complex questions, but it’s rarely helpful. 

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Penultimate Days

Yeah, there you go! You got it!   I shall remember that.

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I always did follow the Word of Wisdom. I didn't try coffee until about 6 months after my loss of belief, and it was another 2 years before I tried alcohol. I went out to dinner with a fellow apostate, who was from Scotland, and he ordered us each a pint of Guinness. He said if I liked Guinness, I'd like pretty much any beer. I have no interest in tobacco or drugs. 

Well, don't hold us in suspense! Did you like Guinness?

[jkwilliams]

23 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, don't hold us in suspense! Did you like Guinness?

It's still one of my favorites, and it's an indispensable ingredient in a good Irish stew. Like I said, I hardly ever drink beer, but it's usually a stout or an IPA. Seems worth the dead brain cells.

[Jerry Atric]

On 8/30/2022 at 1:35 AM, DT_ said:

Sure, alcohol is bad, but society thinks alcohol consumption is a good thing. 

Alcohol is not bad for you in moderation. The 94 year old queen of England drinks atleast 4 alcoholic beverages a day. I know many elderly people who drink alcohol daily and they're very healthy. Some enjoy a cigar in the evening with a scotch or bourbon. On the other hand, most of the elderly people I know who are overweight suffer from multiple health problems. We often forget about what the word of wisdom says about the food we eat. 

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Alcohol is not bad for you in moderation.

The science shows that no amount is safe.  Can you refute that with science instead of anecdotes?   

24 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

The 94 year old queen of England drinks atleast 4 alcoholic beverages a day.   know many elderly people who drink alcohol daily and they're very healthy. Some enjoy a cigar in the evening with a scotch or bourbon.

Anecdotes are not helpful in understanding medicine/health and risks.

28 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

On the other hand, most of the elderly people I know who are overweight suffer from multiple health problems. We often forget about what the word of wisdom says about the food we eat. 

Speaking of being overweight, alcohol has nearly double the calories of carbs and nearly as many calories as pure fat.  

 

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

The science shows that no amount is safe.  Can you refute that with science instead of anecdotes?   

Anecdotes are not helpful in understanding medicine/health and risks.

Speaking of being overweight, alcohol has nearly double the calories of carbs and nearly as many calories as pure fat.  

 

I have a beer on very rare occasions (a total of 4 beers so far this year). A 12-oz. can of IPA has roughly 160-180 calories. That’s fewer calories than a candy bar or a can of soda. So, it’s hardly a cause of obesity unless you’re drinking a lot.

Edited September 1, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Stargazer]

34 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It's still one of my favorites, and it's an indispensable ingredient in a good Irish stew. Like I said, I hardly ever drink beer, but it's usually a stout or an IPA. Seems worth the dead brain cells.

If you're smart enough, you can spare a few, I guess. I've heard that about Irish stew. Here's a good recipe for Beef and Guinness stew. I've actually tried this recipe, but without the Guinness (used beef stock because I'm not comfortable with Guinness).

I make chili using a particular recipe, and it would normally include beer (for the slight bitter flavor note). For the sake of the purity of the recipe, I usually put a bottle of non-alcoholic beer in it, if I have it. As an experiment I tried it with actual beer, once, and I couldn't really detect the difference, so I just use the "virgin beer." 

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

For a rum and coke substitute, well, I usually drink coke with no rum.

Rum and coke is called "Cuba Libre" I believe. So a "Virgin Cuba Libre" is just a coke.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If you're smart enough, you can spare a few, I guess. I've heard that about Irish stew. Here's a good recipe for Beef and Guinness stew. I've actually tried this recipe, but without the Guinness (used beef stock because I'm not comfortable with Guinness).

I make chili using a particular recipe, and it would normally include beer (for the slight bitter flavor note). For the sake of the purity of the recipe, I usually put a bottle of non-alcoholic beer in it, if I have it. As an experiment I tried it with actual beer, once, and I couldn't really detect the difference, so I just use the "virgin beer." 

They now have non-alcoholic Guinness. It makes all the difference in stew.