The bare minimum.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

As an open house. Let's say every Monday we open the temples so people can walk certain parts of the temple. Eat at the cafeteria. If they want to pray they can. If they want to just hang out they can just hang out. You see anything wrong with that idea?

I have absolutely no problem with that. My only concern would be cleaning and rededications.  I don’t know what would be required. 
 

Monday is usually one of the ‘weekend’ days for temple staff, I believe, so maybe a Tuesday would be better. 

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Why would anyone join a religion because a 18 year old kid knocked on their front door? That's not a joke. I'm serious. You don't believe the spirit can work in mysterious ways? Temples are beautiful inside. 

You ever been inside a catholic cathedral? I have and I was absolutely amazed at the beauty. 

Let’s make a more accurate comparison - not between the temple and a cathedral - but between the Jewish temple and the LDS temple. The House of the Lord was never opened to curious visitors.

Category 1. Meetinghouse:synagogue:cathedral:chapel:anyone may enter

Category 2. House of the Lord:Holy of Holies:Jewish temples:LDS temples:entry restricted to authorized priests/members

Category 3. Court of the Gentiles:waiting room:temple grounds

Quote

Non-Jews were allowed to enter the Court of the Gentiles, but they were forbidden to go any farther than the outer court. The inner temple courtyards were enclosed by a balustrade, and at the entrances to it notices were posted in both Greek and Latin, warning foreigners and uncircumcised persons that crossing into one of the other courtyards was punishable by death. https://www.gotquestions.org/Court-of-the-Gentiles.html

We don’t have signs like that, but there are some pretty intimidating folks seated at the doorway.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Jerry Atric]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Let’s make a more accurate comparison - not between the temple and a cathedra - but between the Jewish temple and the LDS temple. The House of the Lord was never opened to curious visitors.

Category 1. Meetinghouse:synagogue:cathedral:chapel:anyone may enter

Category 2. House of the Lord:Holy of Holies:Jewish temples:LDS temples:entry restricted to authorized priests/members

Category 3. Court of the Gentiles:waiting room:temple grounds

 

One of the main reasons we Mormons are on this planet is to convert as many of our brethren and sisters as we can before Christ returns. Therefore, if we want to succeed in our mission to convert the entire globe, Judaism is not a faith we ought to emulate. Despite being 3500 years old, there are barely 15 million Jews worldwide. Although it's a wonderful religion, if you are trying to win people over to the gospel, you shouldn't try to emulate it. Contrarily, Catholicism has 1.4 billion adherence and has been around for 2,000 years.

Does that make sense? 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

One of the main reasons we Mormons are on this planet is to convert as many of our brethren and sisters as we can before Christ returns. Therefore, if we want to succeed in our mission to convert the entire globe, Judaism is not a faith we ought to emulate. Despite being 3500 years old, there are barely 15 million Jews worldwide. Although it's a wonderful religion, if you are trying to win people over to the gospel, you shouldn't try to emulate it. Contrarily, Catholicism has 1.4 billion adherence and has been around for 2,000 years.

Does that make sense? 

Do you believe God commanded his Israelite temple to be limited access or do you think only allowing priests into the Holy of Holies and priests and Levites as the temple workers of that day with restrictions on others was a requirement imposed by the Israelites themselves?

You appear to believe we can change the rules for temple access just because we want to. What if God sees it differently?

We have more than one mission on earth according to scripture.  Disregarding other missions in favour of missionary work isn’t doing God’s Will imo, but our own. 
 

According to scripture, according to Joseph Smith the work for the dead is a necessary part of ours and their salvation. 

 

Quote

15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation  is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.

16 And now, in relation to the baptism for the dead, I will give you another quotation of Paul, 1 Corinthians 15:29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

17 And again, in connection with this quotation I will give you a quotation from one of the prophets, who had his eye fixed on the restoration of the priesthood, the glories to be revealed in the last days, and in an especial manner this most glorious of all subjects belonging to the everlasting gospel, namely, the baptism for the dead; for Malachi says, last chapter, verses 5th and 6th: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

18 I might have rendered a a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time.

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Category 1. Meetinghouse:synagogue:cathedral:chapel:anyone may enter

Maybe @Jerry Atric would be content if LDS meeting houses were more beautiful?

Are there doctrinal/theological reasons for the plainness? Catholic architecture (especially prior to the terrible implementations of the Second Vatican Council) involved doctrine and theology and was meant to teach -- the whole church is a symbol for the divine.

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

One of the main reasons we Mormons are on this planet is to convert as many of our brethren and sisters as we can before Christ returns. Therefore, if we want to succeed in our mission to convert the entire globe, Judaism is not a faith we ought to emulate. Despite being 3500 years old, there are barely 15 million Jews worldwide. Although it's a wonderful religion, if you are trying to win people over to the gospel, you shouldn't try to emulate it. Contrarily, Catholicism has 1.4 billion adherence and has been around for 2,000 years.

Does that make sense? 

The vast majority of the people who will be converted will be in the hereafter.  I don't think the number of people converted in this life is really all that important.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

One of the main reasons we Mormons are on this planet is to convert as many of our brethren and sisters as we can before Christ returns. Therefore, if we want to succeed in our mission to convert the entire globe, Judaism is not a faith we ought to emulate. Despite being 3500 years old, there are barely 15 million Jews worldwide. Although it's a wonderful religion, if you are trying to win people over to the gospel, you shouldn't try to emulate it. Contrarily, Catholicism has 1.4 billion adherence and has been around for 2,000 years.

Does that make sense? 

No, not to me. The Jews are Gods chosen people with great promises yet to be fulfilled. Their temples (and the future one) were built by commandment and revelation from God, as are ours. The purpose of the temples is not to make converts, but to perfect the believers. They provide a place for God to reside metaphorically and literally on the earth, for the adherents to be receive and be instructed in covenants, for the offering of sacrifices, and in modern times for the salvation of the dead. Non-believing visitors would use them as places to mock their beliefs and practices, such as happens on the outside of our temples. Except for the occasional Babylonian or Roman soldier, non-Jews did not enter the House of God. We haven’t come to that yet. The Church in the last days will always be few in numbers. While we want to share the gospel with as many as possible, the whole globe won’t be converted ever. Think of how the Nephites/Lamanites were prepared for the Lord coming to them.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Maybe @Jerry Atric would be content if LDS meeting houses were more beautiful?

Are there doctrinal/theological reasons for the plainness? Catholic architecture (especially prior to the terrible implementations of the Second Vatican Council) involved doctrine and theology and was meant to teach -- the whole church is a symbol for the divine.

The temple is that building to us. Everything in it points to Jesus.

Catholic churches are indeed beautiful and I appreciate that very much, but I don’t believe that is what Jesus and the apostles had in mind when he sent them out.

There are instructions in the D&C about simplicity and plainness. There are many other reasons I can think of for this.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Jerry Atric]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you believe God commanded his Israelite temple to be limited access or do you think only allowing priests into the Holy of Holies and priests and Levites as the temple workers of that day with restrictions on others was a requirement imposed by the Israelites themselves?

I have no idea. Because a couple of days ago you told me God allows his prophets to make mistakes and ban an entire race of people from the temples for over 130 years. So actually, no one actually knows why there was limited access to the Israelite Temple. If it's true, what you said about Brigham Young the prophet, couldn't the priest and Levites made the same mistake so many years ago?

 

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yoy appear to believe we can change the rules for temple access just because we want to. What if God sees it differently?

Once again I refer you to official declaration 2. Of course we can change the rules to temple access.

 

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

We have more than one mission on earth according to scripture.  Disregarding other missions in favour of missionary work isn’t doing God’s Will imo, but our own

I agree we have more than one mission,  but converting souls is of the utmost importance,  isn't it?

 

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

According to scripture, according to Joseph Smith the work for the dead is a necessary part of ours and their salvation. 

I don't agree. Baptism for the dead is a ritual that strengthens our testimony. It strengthens bonds between family members. It gives us hope that one day will be reunited with our dead loved ones.                                                 

Serious question. Do you believe every single thing we are commanded to do or asked to do by God actually needs to be done? Because it doesn't. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[Jerry Atric]

38 minutes ago, webbles said:

The vast majority of the people who will be converted will be in the hereafter.  I don't think the number of people converted in this life is really all that important.

The reason conversion is important here on Earth, is so our brothers and sisters can join us in the Celestial Kingdom. We're not here on Earth for salvation like other Christians believe. Exaltation is our goal. 

[ksfisher]

25 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Serious question. Do you believe every single thing we are commanded to do or asked to do by God actually needs to be done? Because it doesn't.

If we don't need to do all that God asks then why does he bother asking?

What doesn't need to be done?

How do you know that?

Edited August 26, 2022 by ksfisher

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I don't agree. Baptism for the dead is a ritual that strengthens our testimony. It strengthens bonds between family members. It gives us hope that one day will be reunited with our dead loved ones.   

Try to think this through. I know these ideas are hard.

It can have TWO PURPOSES AT THE SAME TIME.

It can strengthen bonds AND it can be actual baptism for the dead.

IT TURNS OUR THOUGHTS TO THEM AND THEIR THOUGHTS TO US.

 

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Once again I refer you to official declaration 2. Of course we can change the rules to temple access.…

I don't agree. Baptism for the dead is a ritual that strengthens our testimony. It strengthens bonds between family members. It gives us hope that one day will be reunited with our dead loved ones.                                                 

Serious question. Do you believe every single thing we are commanded to do or asked to do by God actually needs to be done? Because it doesn't. 

Argue it with Joseph Smith and Malachi. 

And the ban was never scripture, even if interpretations of scripture were used to justify it.  The removal of the ban was revelation and is now scripture because imo we had convinced ourselves as a people too well the ban was revealed, but rediscovered history now shows otherwise imo. 

It was a good thing we did it right the second time with OD 2 because look at the harm that was done by leaders going ahead and believing they knew the scriptures well enough (the ones used to justify enslaving others for centuries before) and what God wanted without actually finding out as far as is documented. 

I don’t believe as individuals we need to do everything that is commanded as God allows us to walk before we need to run and allows us to focus on what needs we have personally such as to raise families, but as a church community we better be trying to do all that he commands. Disregarding revelation because we think we know better than God seems a foolish way to operate God’s Church. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Calm

[Jerry Atric]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

If we don't need to do all that God ask then why does he bother asking?

For the same reason I used to ask my 6 year old to take out the trash can that was way to heavy for him to lug down to the street. TO BUILD CHARACTER! To strengthen bonds. A lot of what God ask us to do is preparing us for future endeavors.

 

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What doesn't need to be done?

That's determined on an individual basis. God definitely trust us to make the correct decision. 

 

12 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

How do you know that?

Because parents always have their children do task that are character building but actually don't need to be done by the child. Did you ask any of your children to complete a task because you knew it would help build their character/personality? 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Maybe @Jerry Atric would be content if LDS meeting houses were more beautiful?

Are there doctrinal/theological reasons for the plainness? Catholic architecture (especially prior to the terrible implementations of the Second Vatican Council) involved doctrine and theology and was meant to teach -- the whole church is a symbol for the divine.

I would. 

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

For the same reason I used to ask my 6 year old to take out the trash can that was way to heavy for him to lug down to the street. TO BUILD CHARACTER! To strengthen bonds. A lot of what God ask us to do is preparing us for future endeavors.

 

That's determined on an individual basis. God definitely trust us to make the correct decision. 

 

Because parents always have their children do task that are character building but actually don't need to be done by the child. Did you ask any of your children to complete a task because you knew it would help build their character/personality? 

I never asked my kids to do something I knew was impossible.  I disagree with your parenting choices applied generally. I see that as more likely to destroy character than to build it. Reaching for something barely within your reach is very different than reaching for something barely beyond your reach. Forcing your kid to try to do stuff you know they will fail at doesn’t always build character, sometimes it sets kids up to believe they are failures. I have seen that happen way too many times including by my own parents to believe that is always wise parenting. Hopefully your kids had personalities that loved challenges or you pitched in to make their tasks workable with your help but not your taking it over until they were able to do things on their own, but not all kids see failure or having to constantly have someone else help them to achieve as a positive challenge. 
 

I also only asked my kids to do meaningful work.  Having them do busy work that doesn’t need to be done just sets them up to not trust that their own time and desires are valued or seen as important as others’ whims. 

If you are actually saying you had them do their fair share of chores rather than you or your wife (apology if you weren’t married, can’t remember if you said you were or not) doing it all or them doing your share of the work, I don’t see an issue with that.  Kids learning they can contribute teaches them they are important, needed members of the family and later their communities. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Calm

[Chum]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I never asked my kids to do something I knew was impossible.  I disagree with your parenting choices applied generally. Forcing your kid to try to do stuff you know they will fail at doesn’t always build character, sometimes it sets kids up to believe they are failures.

To be fair, he never said clarified what type character he was building.

[ksfisher]

20 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

For the same reason I used to ask my 6 year old to take out the trash can that was way to heavy for him to lug down to the street. TO BUILD CHARACTER! To strengthen bonds.

I guess I've never asked any of my children to do something I knew that they couldn't do.  I've asked them to do difficult things, and things I knew they would need help doing, but not something that was impossible for them.  Kinda setting them up for failure.

 

21 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

That's determined on an individual basis. God definitely trust us to make the correct decision. 

So God asks us to do things, and then leaves it up to us to decide if we should decide to do or not do them.  Kinda confusing.  Seems simpler for Him to just ask us to do the things He really wants us to do and not play games.

 

23 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Because parents always have their children do task that are character building but actually don't need to be done by the child. Did you ask any of your children to complete a task because you knew it would help build their character/personality? 

I'm not sure you're answering my question.  I asked how you knew that God asks us to do things that don't need to be done.  Not what parents here on earth do.

Where does your knowledge that God asks us to do things that we don't need to do come from?

[Jerry Atric]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

According to scripture, according to Joseph Smith the work for the dead is a necessary part of ours and their salvation. 

I believe the words found inside the Book of Mormon are true. True, in the sense that, if read on a regular basis I'll be able to keep my testimony strong and unwavering. But that doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is a book of History. I don't believe a bunch of jews crammed a ton of stuff inside submarines that had glass windows then rode them all the way to the America's. Do you believe that actually happened?

But while I'm reading the Book of Mormon I believe it's true. Why? Because when I'm done reading I feel better. I feel closer to God. I feel closer to my family. I feel like a better human. 

I look at baptism for the dead the same way. Baptism for the dead is a necessary ritual if you need it to be.  There's no way God needs our help while we're here on earth. He can handle heaven all by himself. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are instructions in the D&C about simplicity and plainness. There are many other reasons I can think of for this.

Bernard, could you reference these scriptures…it sounds familiar, but I am spacing on them. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I believe the words found inside the Book of Mormon are true. True, in the sense that, if read on a regular basis I'll be able to keep my testimony strong and unwavering. But that doesn't mean the Book of Mormon is a book of History. I don't believe a bunch of jews crammed a ton of stuff inside submarines that had glass windows then rode them all the way to the America's. Do you believe that actually happened?

I don’t believe your caricature of it for sure. 

I find it amazing that you were apparently shocked by my belief the Priesthood Ban itself wasn’t revelation, but you are dismissing revelation detailing the existence of the Lehites and their descendants as apparently a parable, that they didn’t exist.

BTW, the Jaredites were never said to be from Jerusalem. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Calm

[Jerry Atric]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I never asked my kids to do something I knew was impossible.  I disagree with your parenting choices applied generally

I asked my kids to do something impossible on a regular basis. Most of what I asked was impossible at that moment in time but years later it became possible. They racked up many bruises, scratches, cuts and lots of soar muscles. I think there was a few severe burns in there as well. 

 

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

I see that as more likely to destroy character than to build it.

 To each their own I guess. All I know is my kids are hard workers and enjoy life to the fullest. 

 

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

 Forcing your kid to try to do stuff you know they will fail at doesn’t always build character, sometimes it sets kids up to believe they are failures

Not if done correctly. 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So God asks us to do things, and then leaves it up to us to decide if we should decide to do or not do them.  Kinda confusing.  Seems simpler for Him to just ask us to do the things He really wants us to do and not play games.

Guess we need to rip 1 Nephi 3:7 out of our scriptures (I think it’s missing some nuance myself, but completely ignoring seems a bit much).

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I asked my kids to do something impossible on a regular basis. Most of what I asked was impossible at that moment in time but years later it became possible. They racked up many bruises, scratches, cuts and lots of soar muscles. I think there was a few severe burns in there as well. 

I am going to be blunt and say that sounds abusive to me.  I am hoping you are just leaving out details that make it make sense.  

I am trying to think of what tasks you mean. You need to be specific. If you are talking about a project that can last years where the kid is being taught how to do it while completing the task, that is very different than assigning a chore that the child is told needs to be done right away like lugging out the trash. Making the latter impossible to do creates expectations of failure, not success if I am correctly remember my psych classes. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Calm

[Jerry Atric]

16 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I guess I've never asked any of my children to do something I knew that they couldn't do.  I've asked them to do difficult things, and things I knew they would need help doing, but not something that was impossible for them.  Kinda setting them up for failure

That's the point! There's nothing wrong with failure. Actually, failure is more important than success. 

 

18 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So God asks us to do things, and then leaves it up to us to decide if we should decide to do or not do them

Of course. Am I missing something here? 

 

20 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I guess I've never asked any of my children to do something I knew that they couldn't do.  I've asked them to do difficult things, and things I knew they would need help doing, but not something that was impossible for them.  Kinda setting them up for failure.

 

So God asks us to do things, and then leaves it up to us to decide if we should decide to do or not do them.  Kinda confusing.  Seems simpler for Him to just ask us to do the things He really wants us to do and not play games.

 

I'm not sure you're answering my question.  I asked how you knew that God asks us to do things that don't need to be done.  Not what parents here on earth do.

Where does your knowledge that God asks us to do things that we don't need to do come from?

Common sense.