The bare minimum.

[webbles]

59 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

It's in the name of the church!

 

Do you believe we were reserved in heaven and sent down to earth in the latter days because God knew we would protect the gospel at all cost no matter what? 

Would you agree we're not here to heal scrapes and boo boos. That we're here to make it through the latter days with our family hopefully intact as much as possible? If so, does our preparation/food storage play a key role in making it through the turbulent days ahead? You know, earth quakes, fire and all the other atrocities.

That doesn't answer a CFR.  Yes, "Latter-day Saints" is in the name of the church but that doesn't say that our "main reason for collecting <stuff>" is for the second coming.

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

I agree.

 

I agree, never said it was.

 

I agree. And now you're starting to understand where I'm coming from. Relying on the spirit is great, but sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands. Like you just explained, the early saints didn't just rely on the spirit, they protected themselves and the gospel with guns also. Didn't Joseph rely on the spirit and also Porter Rockwell? Today, doesn't the Prophet protect himself with the spirit and also armed men with guns? 

 

If today's prophet and his family can be protected by guns, so can my family. I might not have a bullet proof car like he does,  but I did stay at a holiday Inn last week.

 

How do you know you won't need a gun?

No one has said you can't have a gun.  If you want a gun, go ahead.  But you aren't commanded, required, urged, asked, told, etc to have a gun.

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

Didn't Joseph rely on the spirit and also Porter Rockwell? Today, doesn't the Prophet protect himself with the spirit and also armed men with guns?

Did Brigham Young have a gun or bodyguards?  Did John Taylor?  Wilford Woodruff?  Lorenzo Snow?  Joseph F. Smith?  Heber J. Grant?  George Albert Smith?  David O. McKay?  And so on?  I haven't heard either way so I don't know.  But I kind of doubt some of them did.

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

How do you know you won't need a gun?

Because I don't need a gun.  If you think I need a gun, you'll need to explain why.

[Jerry Atric]

41 minutes ago, webbles said:

That doesn't answer a CFR.  Yes, "Latter-day Saints" is in the name of the church but that doesn't say that our "main reason for collecting <stuff>" is for the second coming.

Why are we here on Earth? Is it to usher in the second coming? If so, is it more likely will have to live off of our food storage, or  the Del taco drive thru when all the fires and earthquakes start?

 

[Jerry Atric]

40 minutes ago, webbles said:

one has said you can't have a gun.  If you want a gun, go ahead.  But you aren't commanded, required, urged, asked, told, etc to have a gun

I never said Mormons are commanded to have a gun, but it definitely part of our rich culture.

 

42 minutes ago, webbles said:

Brigham Young have a gun or bodyguards? 

Don't know 

 

42 minutes ago, webbles said:

Did John Taylor?  Wilford Woodruff?  Lorenzo Snow?  Joseph F. Smith?  Heber J. Grant?  George Albert Smith?  David O. McKay? 

Don't know 

 

43 minutes ago, webbles said:

And so on?

Yes! I do know President Nelson has body guards. So did Monson and Hinckley. They're protected by multiple guns, not just pistols. You want to take I guess at what automatic weapons protect the Prophet? By the way, why does a prophet need body guards?

 

46 minutes ago, webbles said:

If you think I need a gun, you'll need to explain why.

If you feel like you don't need a gun then great! Seriously, no big deal. But someone else on here is trying to make it seem like the Mormons who do have guns are a fringe group of church members. That's not true. 

[webbles]

14 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Why are we here on Earth? Is it to usher in the second coming? If so, is it more likely will have to live off of our food storage, or  the Del taco drive thru when all the fires and earthquakes start?

 

That still isn't answering the CFR.  It seems like you don't actually have any documentation to back up the idea that "main reason for collecting <stuff>" is for the second coming.  Since the other posters actually posted talks, manuals, etc that contradict your statement, it appears that your are wrong.

As for "why we are here on the Earth", that is for us to go through the mortal probation to make it back to heaven.

[webbles]

10 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Yes! I do know President Nelson has body guards. So did Monson and Hinckley. They're protected by multiple guns, not just pistols. You want to take I guess at what automatic weapons protect the Prophet? By the way, why does a prophet need body guards?

Their bodyguards have no automatic weapons.  They might have semi-automatic but not automatic.  Also, the apostles don't have any bodyguards, just the prophets.  And they have bodyguards for the same reason that a lot of people do.  There are crazy people out there that like targeting high-profile people.  If you are a high-profile person, I'd recommend getting a body-guard as well.

10 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

If you feel like you don't need a gun then great! Seriously, no big deal. But someone else on here is trying to make it seem like the Mormons who do have guns are a fringe group of church members. That's not true. 

I don't think that is what they were saying at all.  It was the fringe idea of needing to go to the chapels and mount an armed resistance.  Or the idea that we must stockpile guns and ammo.  Members who stockpile guns and ammo are a fringe group, though.  The vast majority of members probably have no guns.  Those that do have guns probably have 1-2 guns.  Any more than that (which I would classify as stockpiling) is very fringe.

12 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I never said Mormons are commanded to have a gun, but it definitely part of our rich culture.

It isn't part of the Mormon culture.  It is part of the US culture.  The vast majority of Mormons have no guns.

[The Nehor]

Some people really think they are cut out to be a tribal warlord and just really want society to collapse so they can prove it.

Edited August 28, 2022 by The Nehor

[Jerry Atric]

9 minutes ago, webbles said:

Also, the apostles don't have any bodyguards, just the prophets

There's plenty of times the apostles have bodyguards. 

 

10 minutes ago, webbles said:

Members who stockpile guns and ammo are a fringe group, though

That's an opinion, I'll give you that. 

 

11 minutes ago, webbles said:

Any more than that (which I would classify as stockpiling) is very fringe

So let me get this straight. If I have three guns I'm fringe. But if President Nelson has three body guards with multiple weapons, everything is okie dokie, in your opinion? 

My wards SRT team usually has three armed men during service. Does that make my ward "fringe"?

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

You two are still tiptoeing around the fact the reason we store food, water, alcohol, gold, silver, first aid,ammo, guns, money and much more, is actually in the name of our church. Are we not LATTER DAY SAINTS? Are we not the chosen generation? Were we not reserved for the last days because we were the most valiant spirits in heaven and God knew he could depend on us to protect the Gospel? Are you and Gui trying to tell me our church is now teaching us its of utmost importance to prepare for boo boos and sniffles? 

I find it very curious why you and Gui are so against guns/weapons. Have you actually read the Book of Mormon? It's extremely violent. Weapons are described in detail. There's numerous violent wars. People dying all throughout the pages from being killed with weapons. Now, let's move to the restoration. In the 1800s guns were used to protect Mormon land, Mormon prophets, Mormon women, and Mormon children. There was an abundance of violence throughout the early days of the church offensively and defensively. Joseph died with a gun in his hand, shooting people. I think that needs to be said one more time.  Joseph Smith died, SHOOTING and trying to KILL people. 

So let me get this straight. You're OK with the nephites trying to protect the gospel with weapons, killing 1000s upon 1000s of lamanites, but we shouldn't protect what we love today? You're OK with the early saints using weapons to protect their land and families with weapons in the 1800s, but we shouldn't protect ou families today? What about Porter Rockwell, the  angel of death, wasnt he the body guard of Joseph Smith, wasnt Porter one of the most notorious and feared outlaws of early America, he alone proves guns and weapons are woven into the fabric of Mormonism. What about the Dantites, they were seen as a violent vigilante group ?Are you ok with Joseph firing a weapon at people? And today, young men in the church walk down streets and parking lots dressed up like nephite warriors, while holding weapons of war. Have you ever shaked a prophets hand, if so, you were surrounded by guns, his body guards are strapped. You ever been to a temple? If so, you've been protected by guns and security guards. What about sacrament meeting, are there armed men or women in sacrament meetings? Are you telling me weapons/guns aren't woven into the fabric of Mormonism?  

Let me ask. If a Mormon family gathers $5000 of food storage/preparedness, and this religion we believe in is actually true and the lord returns and the world goes to crap, how does the family protect loved ones and their valuables? 

 

I am a prepper as much as anyone in church- I teach classes on it.

My buddy was a lone sniper in Vietnam, living off the land, and he is teaching me how to flake arrowheads.

Guns are for shooting a deer if he happens by.  Racoons. Feral cats. Squirrels. Rabbits. Birds. Snares work fine too if you know how to make them.

We do have coyotes in the neighborhood and actually mountain lions too, nearby.

Be as ready as is practical for your situation, fear not and trust in God.

I am sorry that your understanding of our church sounds like a string of fundamentalist backwoods caricatures to most here, you can tell by how others reply if you listen!  

But do listen!

Sorry, but sometimes tough love is necessary. 😉😁👍

Edited August 28, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

 

7 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

You two are still tiptoeing around the fact the reason we store food, water, alcohol, gold, silver, first aid,ammo, guns, money and much more, is actually in the name of our church. Are we not LATTER DAY SAINTS? Are we not the chosen generation? Were we not reserved for the last days because we were the most valiant spirits in heaven and God knew he could depend on us to protect the Gospel?

Oh my.

You don't convert people by killing them.

I don't think that is what work for the dead is for  

 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by mfbukowski

[webbles]

10 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

So let me get this straight. If I have three guns I'm fringe. But if President Nelson has three body guards with multiple weapons, everything is okie dokie, in your opinion?

If you were a famous person, then I'd expect you to have body guards.  I don't see why you are comparing the two.

The estimated guns per person in the US is 1.2.  So, more than 2 guns is already over the average in the US.  But most members live outside of the US now.  Mexico (the second highest membership) has 0.12 guns per person.  Brazil (the third highest) has 0.08 per person.  Philipines (the fourth highest) has 0.04 per person.  So, yes, a member of the church with 3 guns is in the fringe for the church.  But, there are some states in the US where the per capita is much higher and 3 isn't fringe there.  But I'm talking about church members.

18 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

My wards SRT team usually has three armed men during service. Does that make my ward "fringe"?

I don't see how this has any bearing in the discussion.

[Jerry Atric]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I am a prepper as much as anyone in church- I teach classes on it.

My buddy was a lone sniper in Vietnam, living off the land, and he is teaching me how to flake arrowheads.

Guns are for shooting a deer if he happens by.  Racoons. Feral cats. Squirrels. Rabbits. Birds. Snares work fine too if you know how to make them.

We do have coyotes in the neighborhood and actually mountain lions too, nearby.

Be as ready as is practical for your situation fear not and trust in God.

I am sorry that your understanding of our church sounds like a string of fundamentalist backwoods caricatures to most here, you can tell by how others reply if you listen!  

But do listen!

Sorry, but sometimes tough love is necessary. 😉😁👍

Oh boy! So Porter Rockwell, the angel of death wasn't real, did he not kill for Joseph? Instead of Joseph becoming a martyr, and instead choosing to fight his way out of a jail cell with a gun wasn't real? What about MMM and all the guns used to kill men, women and children? Now to present day. What about all the armed men protecting the prophet and apostles? The church has an entire protection department that protects the higher ups and also important buildings with semi automatic and automatic weapons. What about all the armed local cops that are asked  to protect the apostles when they fly into a city? What about the wards that have armed security?

You said guns are for shooting deer feral cats and such. I've nv8seen a deer in the chapel during sacrament meeting but I have seen men with guns. 

I think you don't understand how important a role guns play in protecting our fellow saints. From the president of the church, all the way down to the youngest member of a local ward. Depending where live I guess, lots if wards have multiple armed men, multiple, ask any bishop. They've gone over what will happen in case of an emergency and a gun needs to be used. Why do I even need to explain this? This is common knowledge but you guys are putting me out there as some kind of nut. Do you guys not understand many wards are being protected by men with guns every Sunday? 

Now that's tough love! Think about it next time you have a feral cat in the crosshairs, Rambo! 

By the way. You shouldn't be shooting feral cats, they deserve to live too. 

[Jerry Atric]

13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my.

You don't convert people by killing them.

I don't think that is what work for the dead is for

You mean like Mountain Meadows Massacre?

[Jerry Atric]

8 minutes ago, webbles said:

you were a famous person, then I'd expect you to have body guards.  I don't see why you are comparing the two

Because bodyguards have guns. You said more than two guns is fringy?  Well Nelson is protected by more than two guns, is he fringy?

What about a ward that's protected by more than two guns? Fringy?

Are we extremists because the temples are protected by more than two guns?

15 minutes ago, webbles said:

I don't see how this has any bearing in the discussion

 

Because I don't think you realize how much you're actually protected by guns even though you don't own one. There's a good chance your bishop has asked at least one member of the ward to carry a gun during service just incase, did you know that to be the case? Everytime you enter onto temple grounds you're being protected by a security team with weapons. Not just handguns, but somewhere on the temple grounds is a room with long guns just in case. Did you know that? 

[webbles]

25 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Because bodyguards have guns. You said more than two guns is fringy?  Well Nelson is protected by more than two guns, is he fringy?

What about a ward that's protected by more than two guns? Fringy?

Are we extremists because the temples are protected by more than two guns?

 

Because I don't think you realize how much you're actually protected by guns even though you don't own one. There's a good chance your bishop has asked at least one member of the ward to carry a gun during service just incase, did you know that to be the case?

I said one church member owning more than 2 guns is fringy.  Seriously, are not reading what I'm writing?  A bodyguard is not fringy for famous people.  Have I ever said it was fringy?

I've been in wards where members wear guns.  They are usually police officers.

I doubt that the bishop has asked anyone to carry a gun "just in case".  Here's the actual handbook statements (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/35?lang=eng)

Quote

Firearms and Weapons

Firearms and other lethal weapons are not allowed on Church property. This includes concealed weapons. This does not apply to current law enforcement officers.

It is pretty explicit.  No firearms except for law enforcement.  If a bishop is asking someone to carry a gun, he is acting against the handbook.

 

Here's the manual on what to do when there is an active shooter - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/safety-health-and-environmental-manual/03/3-6-active-shooter?lang=eng

Quote

1. RUN

   • Have an escape route and plan in mind.

   • Leave your belongings behind.

   • Keep your hands visible to emergency responders.

2. HIDE

   • Hide in an area out of the shooter’s view.

   • Block entry to your hiding place, and lock the doors.

   • Silence your cell phone.

3. FIGHT

   • Fight as a last resort and only when your life is in imminent danger.

   • Attempt to incapacitate the shooter.

   • Act with physical aggression, and throw items at the active shooter.

4. CALL

   • Call the local emergency number when safe.

   • Provide the following information, if possible:

     • Location of the active shooters

     • Number of shooters

     • Physical description of shooters

     • Number and type of weapons held by shooters

     • Number of potential victims at the location

5. WHEN Law Enforcement Responds

   • Remain calm and follow instructions.

   • Put down any items in your hands (for example, bags or jackets).

   • Raise hands and spread fingers.

   • Keep hands visible at all times.

   • Avoid quick movements toward officers, such as holding on to them for safety.

   • Avoid pointing, screaming, or yelling.

   • Do not stop to ask officers for help or direction when evacuating.

Notice how it says "Fight as a last resort and only when your life is in imminent danger."

 

25 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Everytime you enter onto temple grounds you're being protected by a security team with weapons. Not just handguns, but somewhere on the temple grounds is a room with long guns just in case. Did you know that? 

Why would a temple need to be protected by "long guns"?  And I've known of multiple break ins to temples.  Never once has the temple ever used guns from its own inventory.  They've always called the police.  So, either they have these guns and never use them, or they don't have the guns.  I kind of lean to the later because it makes no sense to have guns and not actually use them when needed.

Edited August 28, 2022 by webbles

[webbles]

Here's an article from 1986 about a gunman who held two people hostage in the Washington DC temple - https://apnews.com/article/cdb6d8ff7be50964c7d5749bee273ee7

You'll notice that it was the police who dealt with the gunman.  And both of the hostages were security guards of the temple.  These "long guns" and other guns in the temple were apparently forgotten?  Neither of the security guards had guns?

[Jerry Atric]

24 minutes ago, webbles said:

Why would a temple need to be protected by "long guns"?  And I've known of multiple break ins to temples.  Never once has the temple ever used guns from its own inventory.  They've always called the police.  So, either they have these guns and never use them, or they don't have the guns.  I kind of lean to the later because it makes no sense to have guns and not actually use them when needed.

[Jerry Atric]

Just now, Jerry Atric said:

You don't build two firing ranges to practice using consecrated oil. You build two firing ranges to teach your hired guns to shoot pistols and long guns.  Multy million dollar security teams with hundreds of men learn to shoot long guns. Sorry,  that's just a fact.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

You mean like Mountain Meadows Massacre?

What do you mean?   That is universally seen as an error.   Yes the Saints had reason for their wrath, but was it the best day for the church?  Possibly one of the best for the anti-Mormons.

And the Tribune that distorts everything negatively?  Why would they write that story that way? Because they love the church?

Who's on the Lord's side, who?  Now is the time to show.

Edited August 28, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

There's a good chance your bishop has asked at least one member of the ward to carry a gun during service just incase, did you know that to be the case? Everytime you enter onto temple grounds you're being protected by a security team with weapons. Not just handguns, but somewhere on the temple grounds is a room with long guns just in case. Did you know that? 

Oh my gosh.

Where do you live?   Have you ever been a bishop or heard from any authority that that is a good idea?

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

It's in the name of the church!

 

Do you believe we were reserved in heaven and sent down to earth in the latter days because God knew we would protect the gospel at all cost no matter what? 

Would you agree we're not here to heal scrapes and boo boos. That we're here to make it through the latter days with our family hopefully intact as much as possible? If so, does our preparation/food storage play a key role in making it through the turbulent days ahead? You know, earth quakes, fire and all the other atrocities.

Calm and I I have provided sources that support our position. You have provided none. When you are given a CFR on this board you are required to provide them. I repeat Webbles’ call for your references.

Quote

Refusing to provide appropriate references to support your statements

 

[webbles]

50 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

You don't build two firing ranges to practice using consecrated oil. You build two firing ranges to teach your hired guns to shoot pistols and long guns.  Multy million dollar security teams with hundreds of men learn to shoot long guns. Sorry,  that's just a fact.

In the future, you should link to the actual page and not just give a screenshot - https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/04/02/lds-church-planning-new/.  It makes it easier to actually discuss things.

From the article:

Quote

Hawkins said church security forces include about 200 trained professional officers worldwide, along with some volunteers, including missionaries who staff security check-in desks at events or for church buildings.

Quote

He said the longstanding mission of the Church Security Department — protecting church leaders, employees and the millions of worshippers visiting downtown Salt Lake City’s Temple Square and other church venues worldwide — “requires frequent training,” calling for specialized space and equipment.

Nothing in there is about protecting temples with rooms with "long guns".  Yes, the church has a security department.  They have bodyguards for the prophet.  They have security for Temple Square as well.  They have security at the Nauvoo sites.  I don't really see the relevance of this.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Calm and I I have provided sources that support our position. You have provided none. When you are given a CFR on this board you are required to provide them. I repeat Webbles’ call for your references.

 

I am pretty sure I issued a CFR as well way back.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

You two are still tiptoeing around the fact the reason we store food, water, alcohol, gold, silver, first aid,ammo, guns, money and much more, is actually in the name of our church. Are we not LATTER DAY SAINTS? Are we not the chosen generation? Were we not reserved for the last days because we were the most valiant spirits in heaven and God knew he could depend on us to protect the Gospel? Are you and Gui trying to tell me our church is now teaching us its of utmost importance to prepare for boo boos and sniffles? 

I find it very curious why you and Gui are so against guns/weapons. Have you actually read the Book of Mormon? It's extremely violent. Weapons are described in detail. There's numerous violent wars. People dying all throughout the pages from being killed with weapons. Now, let's move to the restoration. In the 1800s guns were used to protect Mormon land, Mormon prophets, Mormon women, and Mormon children. There was an abundance of violence throughout the early days of the church offensively and defensively. Joseph died with a gun in his hand, shooting people. I think that needs to be said one more time.  Joseph Smith died, SHOOTING and trying to KILL people. 

So let me get this straight. You're OK with the nephites trying to protect the gospel with weapons, killing 1000s upon 1000s of lamanites, but we shouldn't protect what we love today? You're OK with the early saints using weapons to protect their land and families with weapons in the 1800s, but we shouldn't protect ou families today? What about Porter Rockwell, the  angel of death, wasnt he the body guard of Joseph Smith, wasnt Porter one of the most notorious and feared outlaws of early America, he alone proves guns and weapons are woven into the fabric of Mormonism. What about the Dantites, they were seen as a violent vigilante group ?Are you ok with Joseph firing a weapon at people? And today, young men in the church walk down streets and parking lots dressed up like nephite warriors, while holding weapons of war. Have you ever shaked a prophets hand, if so, you were surrounded by guns, his body guards are strapped. You ever been to a temple? If so, you've been protected by guns and security guards. What about sacrament meeting, are there armed men or women in sacrament meetings? Are you telling me weapons/guns aren't woven into the fabric of Mormonism?  

Let me ask. If a Mormon family gathers $5000 of food storage/preparedness, and this religion we believe in is actually true and the lord returns and the world goes to crap, how does the family protect loved ones and their valuables? 

 

The purpose of food storage: "We’ve been taught to organize ourselves and “prepare every needful thing” (Doctrine and Covenants 109:8). You can prepare for hard times with a supply of food and other necessities to help you get through any unexpected challenging times." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/life/tips-for-food-storage-and-production?lang=eng This has been a practice for a lot longer than anyone could be expected to live through the trials and tribulations of the last days.

There is a big difference between expectation and preparation; and between contingency and intent. Please give an example of where recreational or vocational weaponry would need to be stored to maintain a normal lifestyle during hard or challenging times, and what a year's supply might look like.

 

[Rain]

On 8/23/2022 at 6:13 PM, blackstrap said:

Revelation 3:15-16 . I would that ye were either hot or cold but not lukewarm. This article says that both hot and cold are valuable whereas lukewarm is vomit - time. I had not considered it that way before. 

https://www.reenactingtheway.com/blog/i-wish-you-were-cold-or-hot-not-lukewarm-doesnt-mean-jesus-prefers-you-hate-him-instead-of-live-on-the-fence6135488

The book Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes talks about this as well.