Jump to content

The bare minimum.


Recommended Posts

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.  Obviously this would keep my from holding a temple recommend.  But could I still be an an active church goer and worthily take the sacrament?    Or in other words, what is the bare minimum I need to do stay in full fellowship?  I know there are lots of active members without temple recommends,  but where do we draw the line with the sacrament, holding callings, etc?

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.  Obviously this would keep my from holding a temple recommend.  But could I still be an an active church goer and worthily take the sacrament?    Or in other words, what is the bare minimum I need to do stay in full fellowship?  I know there are lots of active members without temple recommends,  but where do we draw the line with the sacrament, holding callings, etc?

Ask you bishop, as I think it depends on you and him.

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.  Obviously this would keep my from holding a temple recommend.  But could I still be an an active church goer and worthily take the sacrament?    Or in other words, what is the bare minimum I need to do stay in full fellowship?  I know there are lots of active members without temple recommends,  but where do we draw the line with the sacrament, holding callings, etc?

I fit your description pretty well, though I don't like wine. I had a bishop once loudly tell me at a Young Women in Excellence Night that I needed to figure out who would ordain my son a priest. "Obviously, you can't do it!"

Link to comment
12 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.  Obviously this would keep my from holding a temple recommend.  But could I still be an an active church goer and worthily take the sacrament?    Or in other words, what is the bare minimum I need to do stay in full fellowship?  I know there are lots of active members without temple recommends,  but where do we draw the line with the sacrament, holding callings, etc?

There is no line.  Worthily partaking of the sacrament is about your relationship with our Father in Heaven and the Savior.  If you know you should be doing something and you are able to do that thing, how does that effect that relationship? 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Rivers said:

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.  Obviously this would keep my from holding a temple recommend.  But could I still be an an active church goer and worthily take the sacrament?    Or in other words, what is the bare minimum I need to do stay in full fellowship?  I know there are lots of active members without temple recommends,  but where do we draw the line with the sacrament, holding callings, etc?

Our answers really do not matter.  The real answer is what one could say directly to the Lord, looking at his face, and feel comfortable saying it and thinking the Lord will agree with the answer.   In the end, that will be all that matters. 

Edited by carbon dioxide
Link to comment
9 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

The real answer is what one could say directly to the Lord, looking at his face, and feel comfortable saying it and thinking the Lord will agree with the answer.   In the end, that will be all that matters. 

That's a tough one.  There are so many things I've done well, but could have done better.  So many commandments I've kept, but could have done so with more of a pure heart (except for that one about not killing anyone.  Never done that.  Yet).

Link to comment

Lets be clear - you can do all sorts of illegal sinful harmful evil things, and remain in full fellowship.   If your bishop finds about it, there may be consequences to things.  If your friends at church find out about it, they might feel betrayed at the lying and misrepresentation.

But no, we're not supposed to be the morals police who cluck our tongues when we see you taking the sacrament unworthily.  (Yes, you can find unrighteously judgmental folks who will do exactly this, but we're not supposed to do this.)

 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Rivers said:

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.  Obviously this would keep my from holding a temple recommend.  But could I still be an an active church goer and worthily take the sacrament?    Or in other words, what is the bare minimum I need to do stay in full fellowship?  I know there are lots of active members without temple recommends,  but where do we draw the line with the sacrament, holding callings, etc?

I'd hesitate to make a firm declaration, and I would not like to advise someone who is not worthy to partake of the sacrament because there are scriptural warnings about it. Ultimately it's up to you, as not even your bishop can withhold it from you -- he can advise you not to do so if he feels it would be improper to do so. He's not going to leave the stand and go down to physically prevent you! So ultimately it is up to you.

In the October 2017 Ensign there was this article: When should I not partake of the sacrament?

I think the article is fairly clear about it. I'd say that you should pray about it and decide based on what the Spirit tells you. 

There have been a few times when I, who had not committed some egregious sin, felt like I wasn't quite worthy of the sacrament, and just let it pass me by. I remember hearing a story from a visiting church officer who spoke about the sacrament, and he told the story of having received an assignment as a high councilor to visit a ward. He ran into the complete plethora of mishaps and delays trying to get to the ward before the meeting started, and he just barely managed to get there during the sacrament hymn, and walked quickly up to the stand to take his seat as the last verse was being sung. Of course, the deacons brought the tray of bread up to the stand first, and there he was, being offered it almost right after the bishop. With the tray being held in front of him he realized that with all the turmoil and hurry that had preceded his arrival, he was nowhere near the state of being he felt he should be in to partake of the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. So, with the thought that everyone was inevitably going to see him refusing it, he indicated to the deacon that he should move along to the next person. What was the congregation going to think about him not partaking? He decided that he cared too much about the sacrament to partake of it in the state he was in.

When I was on my mission in 1973, we had an investigator who was finally baptized after some delay (because he was waiting for his wife to agree to be baptized). He wanted to partake of the sacrament as a non-member because he felt that as a believer he should be privileged to do so. My companion and I advised him that he should wait until he was baptized because as a renewal of covenants it wasn't operative for him. The guidance we had been given was the investigators should be told that the sacrament was only for members -- but we should not forbid them. And when you get right down to it, our "members of record" who haven't reached 8 years old partake of the sacrament and nobody questions it. So he decided that he would partake of it, and he did. Thinking about it now, after nearly 50 years, it brings tears to my eyes that he felt so strongly about it. He passed away in 2017 not long after finishing his last calling, that of bishop of his ward. 

 

Edited by Stargazer
wanted to add another story
Link to comment
3 hours ago, Rivers said:

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.

Wait, you're saying that you would actually want to go to Olive Garden? Even hypothetically, that's just a bridge too far.

Sorry buddy. It was nice knowing you. ;)

 

Link to comment
52 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Wait, you're saying that you would actually want to go to Olive Garden? Even hypothetically, that's just a bridge too far.

Sorry buddy. It was nice knowing you. ;)

 

I'll have you know, I like Olive Garden. It might not be Italian, but I like it.  It's like some people get all offended at Taco Bell, but it's one of my guilty pleasures. Especially since there's only two TBs within 20 miles of me since I moved to the UK. I've had TB twice in five years. 

McDonalds is all over the place here, though.

Link to comment
4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I fit your description pretty well, though I don't like wine. I had a bishop once loudly tell me at a Young Women in Excellence Night that I needed to figure out who would ordain my son a priest. "Obviously, you can't do it!"

Why "obviously"? I find this in the General Handbook:

18.3 Participation in an Ordinance or Blessing
Those who perform or participate in an ordinance or blessing must have the necessary priesthood authority and be worthy. Generally, the standard of worthiness is that associated with holding a temple recommend. However, as guided by the Spirit and the instructions in this chapter, bishops and stake presidents may allow fathers and husbands who hold the necessary priesthood office to perform or participate in some ordinances and blessings even if they are not fully temple worthy. A priesthood holder who has unresolved serious sins should not participate...

It does not appear to be a hard and fast rule that just because you have serious doubts about the church is not necessarily a bar to perform an ordinance, especially one for a close family member.

From your wording, this doesn't seem to be your current bishop...

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Why "obviously"? I find this in the General Handbook:

18.3 Participation in an Ordinance or Blessing
Those who perform or participate in an ordinance or blessing must have the necessary priesthood authority and be worthy. Generally, the standard of worthiness is that associated with holding a temple recommend. However, as guided by the Spirit and the instructions in this chapter, bishops and stake presidents may allow fathers and husbands who hold the necessary priesthood office to perform or participate in some ordinances and blessings even if they are not fully temple worthy. A priesthood holder who has unresolved serious sins should not participate...

It does not appear to be a hard and fast rule that just because you have serious doubts about the church is not necessarily a bar to perform an ordinance, especially one for a close family member.

From your wording, this doesn't seem to be your current bishop...

No, this was about 10 years ago. I’ve mentioned that bishop before. Not my favorite bishop. 

Link to comment
4 hours ago, Rivers said:

Let’s say, hypothetically, that I wanted to switch from garments to boxer briefs,  stop paying tithing, and drink wine at Olive Garden.  Obviously this would keep my from holding a temple recommend.  But could I still be an an active church goer and worthily take the sacrament?    Or in other words, what is the bare minimum I need to do stay in full fellowship?  I know there are lots of active members without temple recommends,  but where do we draw the line with the sacrament, holding callings, etc?

Hypothetical, if you're not wearing garments, not paying tithing, drinking at Olive Garden, why are you worried about telling the bishop the truth? Just lie to the bishop so you can keep your temple recommend. 

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Hypothetical, if you're not wearing garments, not paying tithing, drinking at Olive Garden, why are you worried about telling the bishop the truth? Just lie to the bishop so you can keep your temple recommend. 

I had that situation. My daughter pleaded with me to get a temple recommend so I could attend her wedding. I figured I could pay tithing, keep the word of wisdom, and wear my garments, but I knew I couldn’t lie and say I believed. So, I waited outside. 

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I had that situation. My daughter pleaded with me to get a temple recommend so I could attend her wedding. I figured I could pay tithing, keep the word of wisdom, and wear my garments, but I knew I couldn’t lie and say I believed. So, I waited outside. 

If 1 million Mormons enter the temple annually,  what percentage are sinners?

Link to comment
6 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Hypothetical, if you're not wearing garments, not paying tithing, drinking at Olive Garden, why are you worried about telling the bishop the truth? Just lie to the bishop so you can keep your temple recommend. 

If I were going to lie to a bishop to keep a temple recommend, it would be so I could attend a temple wedding.  

I am talking about good honest people who just don’t want to walk the full covenant path yet still want to have fellowship with the church to some extent.

Let’s face it.  Our religion asks a lot of us.  I’m not saying that’s a bad thing.  To use a newly coined term, some church members are quiet quitters.  

Link to comment
2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

That's a tough one.  There are so many things I've done well, but could have done better.  So many commandments I've kept, but could have done so with more of a pure heart (except for that one about not killing anyone.  Never done that.  Yet).

[Emphasis mine.]  Should at least one of us, and perhaps more than one of us, be worried? :huh:

;) :D :rofl:

Link to comment
9 minutes ago, Rivers said:

If I were going to lie to a bishop to keep a temple recommend, it would be so I could attend a temple wedding.  

I am talking about good honest people who just don’t want to walk the full covenant path yet still want to have fellowship with the church to some extent.

Let’s face it.  Our religion asks a lot of us.  I’m not saying that’s a bad thing.  To use a newly coined term, some church members are quiet quitters.  

Why do you think our church ask a lot of its members? I think it's just the opposite. Mormonism simplifies life. 

Link to comment

I always thought that the church focused on the production of only top tier saints and forever families. It should be a church for everybody, even those not shooting for the top.. It's okay to choose to be single (celestial angel) or a jack Mormon (terrestrial being) and still come to church. Many people stay away even when they KNOW the church is true because of Vice. 1/3s of the Islanders stay apart because they can't measure up. If we only pitch a Celestial-only heaven they have no hope of reaching, could we not extol the virtues of trying to make it to the Terrestrial kingdom at least? What good is knowing of the Terrestrial kingdom if we don't preach it too?

One the other hand, the callings and ordinances are for a priestly class (worthy baptized people). These laymen Priest maintain their worthiness, as anciently the priests had to, followed up by purification rites, abstaining of alcohol, consecrating regalia if they wish to serve, in the temple or elsewhere. It is important to take seriously.

Usually, sexual sin and ongoing addiction is the common lines crossed where a Bishop thinks that it cannot be taken care of in a week, and that disciplinary action is needed, maybe next week if you are not repeating it you can start taking the sacrament, or a Disfellowship status is given, which prevents callings and talks. The primary thing to do is to have a repentant manner if you keep sinning, and stay active to get off Disfellowship status, going inactive will keep it on and unrepentant attitude could result in the  last resort, excommunication, which means you are not trying. An earnest sinner, a hopeless addict, living in sin or I think even an unendowed practicing homosexual (as long as they are not practicing on other members) can maintain their membership. Even excommunicated are encouraged to attend, as long as it wasn't for being apostate.

Edited by Pyreaux
Link to comment
54 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

No, this was about 10 years ago. I’ve mentioned that bishop before. Not my favorite bishop. 

Wouldn't have been mine, either! 

Link to comment
20 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Why do you think our church ask a lot of its members? I think it's just the opposite. Mormonism simplifies life. 

You know, I was really annoyed with your posts above, suggesting to jkwilliams that he could lie to get a temple recommend, and then you say something like this, which I find to be totally true.

You had to have been playing devil's advocate above.

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...