The bare minimum.

[webbles]

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Given the direction of the thread, I would like to seek clarification. When, according to LDS eschatology will the decision be made as to which of the three kingdoms + three levels of the Celestial kingdom a person will live in for eternity? My faith teaches that the decision about one's eternal destiny is not made until the judgment seat of Christ where we all will give an account and be judged once and for all. Is that different from LDS eschatology? Christ is the one who will be the final judge, right? --"No man cometh unto the Father but by me." I think we all believe that. If we are in agreement that Christ will make that final assignment at the judgment seat, do the LDS folks have confidence that they have a rather complete understanding of how Christ will make the final judgment, the criteria He will use for that assignment, and the authority and agency He will have in doing so? Thanks!

The decision will be made at the judgement seat.  Though I think we believe that we are resurrected into a body that is fit for the different glory so resurrection and judgment day are interrelated somehow.  I'm not sure if our eschatology says that God or Christ will be the judge.  I've heard both ways but I don't think that will make much of a difference.

I don't think we have a "complete understanding".  D&C 76 probably is the closest thing that we can point to.  There are some things that can only be done with a physical body (such as baptism) so if that wasn't done while you are alive, you'll need a living person to do it for you.  That's why we do baptism for the dead.  We also believe that there are some things that are easier to do with a body vs in the spirit world (the time in between death and resurrection).  The examples I usually hear are about repenting from physically related sins (lust, gluttony, smoking, etc).  We do believe that if you reject the gospel before death, then even if you receive it in the spirit world, you'll be judged for rejecting it.  That's what we are discussing about, what it means to "reject the gospel".

Edited to add: We do believe that there will be other people judging.  For example, Christ told his apostles (Matt 19:28) that they will judge the House of Israel.  We believe that prophets will also be judges.  But God/Christ have the final decision on everything.  I, personally, see it as they are more like witnesses, not judges.

Edited August 27, 2022 by webbles

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

I find it hysterical that you and Calm deny why we as Mormons actually store food, guns, ammo, money, alcohol, gold, silver, clothes, first aid, water and numerous other items. Every generation of Mormons since Joseph was alive has thought they we're the generation that's going to usher in the second coming. Every generation of Mormons for the past 190 some years thought they would see Jesus walk the earth. You don't find it a little comical when you say we're storing all this stuff incase there's a day we lose our job, or get a boo boo? I do. Considering we're LATTER DAY SAINTS. 

We've been told our whole lives we're the chosen generation, and calamities are right around the corner. Here,  read this

"Youth of Zion, do you realize you are living in the days of the fulfillment of these signs and wonders? You are among those who will see many of these prophecies fulfilled. Just as certain as was the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews, so shall these words of the Savior be certain to your generation... You will live in the midst of economic, political and spiritual instability. When you see these signs – unmistakable evidences that His coming is nigh – be not troubled, but ‘stand... in holy places...” These holy places consist of our temples, our chapels, our homes and the stakes of Zion, which are as the Lord declares, ‘for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from the wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth'... We have every confidence that you, ‘the rising generation,' will not falter. I repeat: You were valiant spirits reserved for this exceptional time. You have but one choice: To rise to the task of history's most significant hour!”

 

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, “Prepare Yourselves for the Great Day of the Lord," address delivered to the Devotional Assembly, Ricks College, Idaho, September 16, 1980

 

You and Calm keep harping on me about how I believe guns are part of our mormonness, but right there it says how our chapels are for refuge and for a defense. How do you and Calm plan to take refuge and defend your fellow Mormons if you're at a chapel during these tumultuous times? Do you plan to throw dehydrated apricots at an intruder that's trying to steal all the food storage? Maybe a slingshot and a handful of freeze dried blueberries? 

Perhaps you have a point. Later in his talk, President Benson quoted President Wilford Woodruff:

Quote

Can you tell me where the people are who will be shielded and protected from these great calamities and judgments which are even now at our door? I’ll tell you. The priesthood of God who honor their priesthood, who are worthy of their blessings and who arm themselves with weapons of war and fortify the battlements of the chapels and temples are the only ones who shall have this safety and protection. They are the only mortal beings. No other people have a right to be shielded from these judgments. They are at our very doors; not even this people will escape them entirely. Some may fall in the corridors and classrooms, but their end will be glorious. 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

You don't find it a little comical when you say we're storing all this stuff incase there's a day we lose our job, or get a boo boo?

No, but since that is the consistent message of the Brethren since 1936 and before, I do find it disingenuous to claim otherwise. Don’t you?

Who is this “we” and “our”? All these twists and turns sound like they come from someone who is pretending to be a Latter-day Saint.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No, but since that is the consistent message of the Brethren since 1936 and before, I do find it disingenuous to claim otherwise. Don’t you?

Who is this “we” and “our”? All these twists and turns sound like they come from someone who is pretending to be a Latter-day Saint.

I have known several (come to think of it, more like over a dozen) families who have needed to live off most of their home storage, if not all, due to job loss and not being able to find another job at the time, including two in my extended family and one close friend.  It was a frequent testimony theme of how a family got gracefully through a rough patch in the 70’s and 80’s. I was in Canada in the 90’s and they had a stronger government welfare system, so I think that is why I stopped hearing it then. Not so much teaching about home storage when we moved back to Utah in 2003, but my attendance has been off and on since then and mostly off the last 7 years.  Still heard of a few families though in the past 20 grateful they had home storage because of financial instability, a divorce in one case, a death of a husband in another. Known quite a few who went to producing much of their own food with chickens, rabbits, or goats and massive gardens around here as well (we are semi rural or were, lots of developments lately and plots appear not to be the quarter acres they were once required to be).

Edited August 28, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps you have a point. Later in his talk, President Benson quoted President Wilford Woodruff:

 

You better be careful, Bernard. For newer posters who have not encountered good, old S. Heber Young, they may not know the creative side of you and take it seriously.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68578-s-heber-young-speaks-out-on-hooper-ffa-broohaha/

For those curious, here is another taste:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/68578-s-heber-young-speaks-out-on-hooper-ffa-broohaha/

Some of my fondest memories of this board are of S Heber Young.  ZLMB too, right?  Can’t look for them now that board is defunct. 
 

I hope you kept a copy of all of them somewhere. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Calm

[Vanguard]

5 hours ago, webbles said:

When they've had a witness that it is true and that they need to accept it.  That could be the first time or it could be 100th time.  It could be after they've died.  A person could have gone to church every week of their life and never be baptized and still not have had a "true chance" to accept it.  It is unique to each person.

That's all correct except I'll one up you and say the person could have even been baptized and still not had that chance. It all boils down to how we define chance. In fact, I go much further than baptism...

Edited August 28, 2022 by Vanguard

[Vanguard]

10 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

That's all correct except I'll one up you and say the person could have even been baptized and still not had that chance. It all boils down to how we define chance. In fact, I go much further than baptism...

The bottom line is that we cannot reduce 'entrance into the pearlies' down to some litmus behavior for all to see in this mortality. Not only is it wrongheaded right out of the gates but it inevitably leads us down an irreconciliable rabbit hole without end both conceptually and judgmentally.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Vanguard

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

I find it hysterical that you and Calm deny why we as Mormons actually store food, guns, ammo, money, alcohol, gold, silver, clothes, first aid, water and numerous other items. Every generation of Mormons since Joseph was alive has thought they we're the generation that's going to usher in the second coming. Every generation of Mormons for the past 190 some years thought they would see Jesus walk the earth. You don't find it a little comical when you say we're storing all this stuff incase there's a day we lose our job, or get a boo boo? I do. Considering we're LATTER DAY SAINTS. 

We've been told our whole lives we're the chosen generation, and calamities are right around the corner. Here,  read this

"Youth of Zion, do you realize you are living in the days of the fulfillment of these signs and wonders? You are among those who will see many of these prophecies fulfilled. Just as certain as was the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem and the scattering of the Jews, so shall these words of the Savior be certain to your generation... You will live in the midst of economic, political and spiritual instability. When you see these signs – unmistakable evidences that His coming is nigh – be not troubled, but ‘stand... in holy places...” These holy places consist of our temples, our chapels, our homes and the stakes of Zion, which are as the Lord declares, ‘for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from the wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth'... We have every confidence that you, ‘the rising generation,' will not falter. I repeat: You were valiant spirits reserved for this exceptional time. You have but one choice: To rise to the task of history's most significant hour!”

 

- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, “Prepare Yourselves for the Great Day of the Lord," address delivered to the Devotional Assembly, Ricks College, Idaho, September 16, 1980

 

You and Calm keep harping on me about how I believe guns are part of our mormonness, but right there it says how our chapels are for refuge and for a defense. How do you and Calm plan to take refuge and defend your fellow Mormons if you're at a chapel during these tumultuous times? Do you plan to throw dehydrated apricots at an intruder that's trying to steal all the food storage? Maybe a slingshot and a handful of freeze dried blueberries? 

You never heard about how angels will be surrounding us?  When the Lord is on your side, who needs guns?  

I find it laughable you are dismissive of home storage for family crises given how big the Church is on self reliance and welfare. 

I don’t deny there was always a bit of ‘and if you don’t need it now, you will likely be using it when the world goes to pot’, but first and foremost it was about preparing your family like the Church has for a time prepared itself for helping with welfare and fast offerings and disaster assistance. It was a sign of pride not to have to go ask the Bishop for help because they could depend on their home storage instead.  My grandparents were full of stories about how their mothers not only kept their families together by gardens and canning, etc, but always had a meal ready for any homeless person or sick neighbor.

Alcohol as part of the home storage program?  Next you will be telling me church leaders were teaching store up coffee, tea and a case load of Pepsi/Coke (depending on which company you think the Church has stock in).

I have heard of using alcohol for trading purposes in nonMormon prep circles, but every Saint I heard talk about it was “right, just what we need in the middle of the apocalypse, a bunch of drunk neighbours”.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Calm

[Rivers]

8 hours ago, sunstoned said:

You might have crossed the line with eating at Olive Garden.

I thought everyone loved Olive Garden.  Those breadsticks are the bomb.

[Calm]

In the last days talk by ETB that JA quotes, there is also this:

“And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety. 

“And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.” (D&C 45:67–69.)”

Then he cites how it is Christ himself that will save the Jews from annihilation by gentiles.

So the righteous don’t appear to need swords/guns according to the above.

And as much as it pains me to do so, I feel the need to put up the actual quote from WW:

”The priesthood of God who honor their priesthood and who are worthy of their blessings are the only ones who shall have this safety and protection. They are the only mortal beings. No other people have a right to be shielded from these judgments. They are at our doors; not even this people will escape them entirely.” (Wilford Woodruff, Young Women’s Journal, 5:512, June 1894.)”

God is our shield in the last days. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1982/05/prepare-yourself-for-the-great-day-of-the-lord?lang=eng

Edited August 28, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

D&C 76 tells exactly who inherits what kingdom. The terrestrial is for jack mormons and people who knew about the gospel but didn't accept it on earth but they accepted the gospel in the spirit world. Correct?

 

 

 

It would not be just to punish people because anti-mormons told them not to go near their chapels because they were satanic.   That scripture literally taken would make God unjust.    It is not their fault that all they heard were lies.   We must not take it literally.   I won't respond further on this, there's no point to it.

[Jerry Atric]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps you have a point. Later in his talk, President Benson quoted President Wilford Woodruff:

 

Good try. Funny.

[Jerry Atric]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I have known several (come to think of it, more like over a dozen) families who have needed to live off most of their home storage, if not all, due to job loss and not being able to find another job at the time, including two in my extended family and one close friend.  It was a frequent testimony theme of how a family got gracefully through a rough patch in the 70’s and 80’s. I was in Canada in the 90’s and they had a stronger government welfare system, so I think that is why I stopped hearing it then. Not so much teaching about home storage when we moved back to Utah in 2003, but my attendance has been off and on since then and mostly off the last 7 years.  Still heard of a few families though in the past 20 grateful they had home storage because of financial instability, a divorce in one case, a death of a husband in another. Known quite a few who went to producing much of their own food with chickens, rabbits, or goats and massive gardens around here as well (we are semi rural or were, lots of developments lately and plots appear not to be the quarter acres they were once required to be).

You two are still tiptoeing around the fact the reason we store food, water, alcohol, gold, silver, first aid,ammo, guns, money and much more, is actually in the name of our church. Are we not LATTER DAY SAINTS? Are we not the chosen generation? Were we not reserved for the last days because we were the most valiant spirits in heaven and God knew he could depend on us to protect the Gospel? Are you and Gui trying to tell me our church is now teaching us its of utmost importance to prepare for boo boos and sniffles? 

I find it very curious why you and Gui are so against guns/weapons. Have you actually read the Book of Mormon? It's extremely violent. Weapons are described in detail. There's numerous violent wars. People dying all throughout the pages from being killed with weapons. Now, let's move to the restoration. In the 1800s guns were used to protect Mormon land, Mormon prophets, Mormon women, and Mormon children. There was an abundance of violence throughout the early days of the church offensively and defensively. Joseph died with a gun in his hand, shooting people. I think that needs to be said one more time.  Joseph Smith died, SHOOTING and trying to KILL people. 

So let me get this straight. You're OK with the nephites trying to protect the gospel with weapons, killing 1000s upon 1000s of lamanites, but we shouldn't protect what we love today? You're OK with the early saints using weapons to protect their land and families with weapons in the 1800s, but we shouldn't protect ou families today? What about Porter Rockwell, the  angel of death, wasnt he the body guard of Joseph Smith, wasnt Porter one of the most notorious and feared outlaws of early America, he alone proves guns and weapons are woven into the fabric of Mormonism. What about the Dantites, they were seen as a violent vigilante group ?Are you ok with Joseph firing a weapon at people? And today, young men in the church walk down streets and parking lots dressed up like nephite warriors, while holding weapons of war. Have you ever shaked a prophets hand, if so, you were surrounded by guns, his body guards are strapped. You ever been to a temple? If so, you've been protected by guns and security guards. What about sacrament meeting, are there armed men or women in sacrament meetings? Are you telling me weapons/guns aren't woven into the fabric of Mormonism?  

Let me ask. If a Mormon family gathers $5000 of food storage/preparedness, and this religion we believe in is actually true and the lord returns and the world goes to crap, how does the family protect loved ones and their valuables? 

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[JustAnAustralian]

18 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

You two are still tiptoeing around the fact the reason we store food, water, alcohol, gold, silver, first aid,ammo, guns, money and much more, is actually in the name of our church.

Strange. My family's storage doesn't contain alcohol, gold, silver, ammo, guns, etc. 

I've also never been told that it should either.

Question to you: if things get to the stage you are alluding to, what good will gold, silver, and money do any way? You can't eat them. You can't use them to keep warm. You might be able to throw a lump of gold at an animal to kill it, but that's about all it would be good for.

 

[Jerry Atric]

8 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Strange. My family's storage doesn't contain alcohol, gold, silver, ammo, guns, etc. 

I've also never been told that it should either.

Question to you: if things get to the stage you are alluding to, what good will gold, silver, and money do any way? You can't eat them. You can't use them to keep warm. You might be able to throw a lump of gold at an animal to kill it, but that's about all it would be good for.

 

You might want to start collecting lots of alcohol. If you do, buy the good stuff! If you don't know what the good stuff is, find a Baptist and ask them. The Baptist part was a joke. But storing alcohol will be great for bartering if money and gold have no value. 

Do you at least have a baseball bat for protection incase someone tries to steal your storage?

Edited August 28, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

You two are still tiptoeing around the fact the reason we store food, water, alcohol, gold, silver, first aid,ammo, guns, money and much more, is actually in the name of our church. Are we not LATTER DAY SAINTS? Are we not the chosen generation? Were we not reserved for the last days because we were the most valiant spirits in heaven and God knew he could depend on us to protect the Gospel? Are you and Gui trying to tell me our church is now teaching us its of utmost importance to prepare for boo boos and sniffles? 

I find it very curious why you and Gui are so against guns/weapons. Have you actually read the Book of Mormon? It's extremely violent. Weapons are described in detail. There's numerous violent wars. People dying all throughout the pages from being killed with weapons. Now, let's move to the restoration. In the 1800s guns were used to protect Mormon land, Mormon prophets, Mormon women, and Mormon children. There was an abundance of violence throughout the early days of the church offensively and defensively. Joseph died with a gun in his hand, shooting people. I think that needs to be said one more time.  Joseph Smith died, SHOOTING and trying to KILL people. 

So let me get this straight. You're OK with the nephites trying to protect the gospel with weapons, killing 1000s upon 1000s of lamanites, but we shouldn't protect what we love today? You're OK with the early saints using weapons to protect their land and families with weapons in the 1800s, but we shouldn't protect ou families today? What about Porter Rockwell, the  angel of death, wasnt he the body guard of Joseph Smith, wasnt Porter one of the most notorious and feared outlaws of early America, he alone proves guns and weapons are woven into the fabric of Mormonism. What about the Dantites, they were seen as a violent vigilante group ?Are you ok with Joseph firing a weapon at people? And today, young men in the church walk down streets and parking lots dressed up like nephite warriors, while holding weapons of war. Have you ever shaked a prophets hand, if so, you were surrounded by guns, his body guards are strapped. You ever been to a temple? If so, you've been protected by guns and security guards. What about sacrament meeting, are there armed men or women in sacrament meetings? Are you telling me weapons/guns aren't woven into the fabric of Mormonism?  

Let me ask. If a Mormon family gathers $5000 of food storage/preparedness, and this religion we believe in is actually true and the lord returns and the world goes to crap, how does the family protect loved ones and their valuables? 

 

I haven't really seen anybody be against guns in this discussion.  I just don't see any encouragement or commandment to stockpile guns and ammo.  I do have cousins that have tons of guns.  But they aren't stockpiling it because of church instructions.  They also don't tell me that I'm not following church instructions because I don't have a single gun in my house.  You seem to be the only person who is stating that guns and ammo are required for our "food storage".  Why are you focusing on guns so much?

[Jerry Atric]

38 minutes ago, webbles said:

  I just don't see any encouragement or commandment to stockpile guns and ammo

I've said that weapons are woven into the fabric of mormonism, because they are. 

 

41 minutes ago, webbles said:

You seem to be the only person who is stating that guns and ammo are required for our "food storage". 

I've never said they're required. Just that they're part of many mormon family preparedness programs. To act like guns aren't is silly.  

 

44 minutes ago, webbles said:

Why are you focusing on guns so much?

Are you talking about how Mormons focused on guns in the early days of the church? Like the angel of death,  Porter Rockwell, Joseph's personal bodyguard, or are you talking about I'm focusing on guns like the current Prophets bodyguards, or armed security at the temple? 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Good try. Funny.

How about some real discussion on the points I and others have made? For example, we provided quotes of general authorities from every decade since the Welfare Program was established that explain the reasoning behind and the purpose of home storage. I could provide many more. None of them supports your position. In fact they directly contradict it. How can that be?

Edited August 28, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[webbles]

12 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I've said that weapons are woven into the fabric of mormonism, because they are. 

 

I've never said they're required. Just that they're part of many mormon family preparedness programs. To act like guns aren't is silly.  

 

Are you talking about how Mormons focused on guns in the early days of the church? Like the angel of death,  Porter Rockwell, Joseph's personal bodyguard, or are you talking about I'm focusing on guns like the current Prophets bodyguards, or armed security at the temple? 

Guns are woven into the fabric of the United States.  It really isn't that unique to mormonism.  I bet if you asked all the people that have stockpiled guns in the US, you'll find a small minority of members.  The vast majority would be non members.  If you go outside of the United States, the number of guns that members have drops off.

I don't see the early Mormons being focused on guns anymore than the rest of the population of their day.  I see current Mormons being less focused on guns.  Pointing to bodyguards doesn't really help since lots of people have bodyguards (presidents, popes, congressmen, congresswomen, pilots, actors, etc).  Should the prophet have bodyguards?  Yes, we've had several instances of people trying to harm them.  Should the temples have security?  Yes, we've had several instances of breaking and entering.  Should I have a gun?  Depends on my situation.  Do I need a gun for the second coming?  No.

[Jerry Atric]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Yoy never heard about how angels will be surrounding us?

I'm just following the Prophet! If Joseph saw fit to protect himself by trying to kill bad people, then why can't I do the same? 

 

11 hours ago, Calm said:

 When the Lord is on your side, who needs guns?

Joseph could of died a martyr, but he chose to go out fighting with guns a-blazin! Why didn't he trust that he was surrounded by angels? Was God not on his side? 

11 hours ago, Calm said:

I find it laughable you are dismissive of home storage for family crises given how big the Church is on self reliance and welfare

I find it laughable that you are dismissive of the main reason we have food storage is for the LATTER DAYS. Of course we can use food storage when desperate times arise, but that doesn't negate the fact that our main reason for collecting food, water, gold, silver, alcohol, first aid, guns and ammo, is for the LATTER DAYS and all the destruction that's going to follow the 2nd coming. The Church of Jesus Christ of LATTER-DAY Saints.

 

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Alcohol as part of the home storage program?

Yes! 1000s upon 1000s of Mormons store alcohol as part of their storage program. 

 

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Next you will be telling me church leaders were teaching store up coffee, tea and a case load of Pepsi/Coke (depending on which company you think the Church has stock in)

Do you have any independent thoughts that have nothing to do with what the church teaches? Coffee and tea are wonderful items to store up incase of emergency.  Were you not the one who said we should share with our neighbors? Your neighbors will love you to death if you're the only one on the block who has coffee and tea. The prophets recommend not drinking coffee and tea, that doesn't mean you can't touch it! Coffee and tea aren't evil, you want die if it's in your house.

 

11 hours ago, Calm said:

I have heard of using alcohol for trading purposes in nonMormon prep circles, but every Saint I heard talk about it was “right, just what we need in the middle of the apocalypse, a bunch of drunk neighbours”.

Wow! For someone who likes to say they're well traveled, you don't know much about people who drink alcohol. Do you think all people who drink alcohol are drunks? Because a lot of Mormons think just that. 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[teddyaware]

18 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

D&C 76 tells exactly who inherits what kingdom. The terrestrial is for jack mormons and people who knew about the gospel but didn't accept it on earth but they accepted the gospel in the spirit world. Correct?

 

 

 

Doctrine and Covenants 76:72-79 is one of the most widely misinterpreted and misunderstood sections of LDS Scripture. The key to understanding verses 72 to 78 is verse 79 which clearly states that those mentioned in the previous seven verses eventually do accept the gospel of Jesus Christ but that they are nonetheless not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and that it is for this key reason that they are relegated to the terrestrial kingdom in the resurrection. Merely accepting Christ as one’s Savior is not enough to enable a believer to overcome the world and thereby obtain a fulness of celestial glory

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.  (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

The Savior plainly stipulated what is necessary to do if one is going to be enabled to obtain the crown over the kingdom and become joint heirs with Christ in the highest kingdom of glory.

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)
 

[webbles]

11 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I find it laughable that you are dismissive of the main reason we have food storage is for the LATTER DAYS. Of course we can use food storage when desperate times arise, but that doesn't negate the fact that our main reason for collecting food, water, gold, silver, alcohol, first aid, guns and ammo, is for the LATTER DAYS and all the destruction that's going to follow the 2nd coming. The Church of Jesus Christ of LATTER-DAY Saints.

CFR that "our main reason for collecting ... is for the LATTER DAYS and all the destruction that's going to follow the 2nd coming".  Where is that taught?  A general conference message, manual, scripture, anything?

Edited August 28, 2022 by webbles

[Jerry Atric]

13 minutes ago, webbles said:

Guns are woven into the fabric of the United States

I agree.

 

13 minutes ago, webbles said:

It really isn't that unique to mormonism

I agree, never said it was.

 

14 minutes ago, webbles said:

I don't see the early Mormons being focused on guns anymore than the rest of the population of their day

I agree. And now you're starting to understand where I'm coming from. Relying on the spirit is great, but sometimes you have to take matters into your own hands. Like you just explained, the early saints didn't just rely on the spirit, they protected themselves and the gospel with guns also. Didn't Joseph rely on the spirit and also Porter Rockwell? Today, doesn't the Prophet protect himself with the spirit and also armed men with guns? 

 

19 minutes ago, webbles said:

  I see current Mormons being less focused on guns

If today's prophet and his family can be protected by guns, so can my family. I might not have a bullet proof car like he does,  but I did stay at a holiday Inn last week.

 

23 minutes ago, webbles said:

Do I need a gun for the second coming?  No

How do you know you won't need a gun?

[Jerry Atric]

13 minutes ago, webbles said:

CFR that "our main reason for collecting ... is for the LATTER DAYS and all the destruction that's going to follow the 2nd coming".  Where is that taught?  A general conference message, manual, scripture, anything?

It's in the name of the church!

 

Do you believe we were reserved in heaven and sent down to earth in the latter days because God knew we would protect the gospel at all cost no matter what? 

Would you agree we're not here to heal scrapes and boo boos. That we're here to make it through the latter days with our family hopefully intact as much as possible? If so, does our preparation/food storage play a key role in making it through the turbulent days ahead? You know, earth quakes, fire and all the other atrocities.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Jerry Atric

[Jerry Atric]

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Doctrine and Covenants 76:72-79 is one of the most widely misinterpreted and misunderstood sections of LDS Scripture. The key to understanding verses 72 to 78 is verse 79 which clearly states that those mentioned in the previous seven verses eventually do accept the gospel of Jesus Christ but that they are nonetheless not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and that it is for this key reason that they are relegated to the terrestrial kingdom in the resurrection. Merely accepting Christ as one’s Savior is not enough to enable a believer to overcome the world and thereby obtain a fulness of celestial glory

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.
79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.  (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

The Savior plainly stipulated what is necessary to do if one is going to be enabled to obtain the crown over the kingdom and become joint heirs with Christ in the highest kingdom of glory.

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)
 

I admit,  I'm confused about who will go to what kingdom. I think most of us are. Some think there's progression between kingdoms, a large portion of Mormons don't. Personally I have no idea.