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39 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

We both agree it's the God's house. We differ in believing who's worthy to enter. I think it's selfish to exclude 99.97% of Heavenly Father's children from his house. If you consider only 30% of Mormons are "worthy" to enter the temple,  it's more like 99.99% of God's children are banned from entering the temple. Why?

With this post it seems that you do believe non-Abrahamic, non-covenant people should be allowed to enter the temple.  Isaiah made it clear that it was intended for a refuge for His people, the Israelites, and no one else.   Was Isaiah wrong too? 

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20 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Our answers really do not matter.  The real answer is what one could say directly to the Lord, looking at his face, and feel comfortable saying it and thinking the Lord will agree with the answer.   In the end, that will be all that matters. 

If only it were the way in practice and in overall narrative. I feel genuinely good about approaching God as an atheist and one who does not believe in the church.

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19 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

We both agree it's the God's house. We differ in believing who's worthy to enter. I think it's selfish to exclude 99.97% of Heavenly Father's children from his house. If you consider only 30% of Mormons are "worthy" to enter the temple,  it's more like 99.99% of God's children are banned from entering the temple. Why?

The Lord has invited all the participate in sacred ordinances in His house.  Because of the sacredness of these ordinances He has asked that only those meeting a minimum standard of worthiness enter.  All are invited to prepare for this opportunity.

Every Sunday across the globe congregations meet.  During these Sunday meetings members of the church are invited to partake of the sacrament.  Participation in this ordinance is and essential part of preparation to enter the temple.

All are invited, saint and sinner alike, to attend Sunday meetings.

 

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5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If only it were the way in practice and in overall narrative. I feel genuinely good about approaching God as an atheist and one who does not believe in the church.

I feel the same way. If I find myself accounting for myself in front of God, I can with a clear conscience say I have done the best I could according to my beliefs and conscience.

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8 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure I understand this.  How can you feel good (or bad or any kind of feeling) about approaching someone you don't believe in?

Humans consider hypothetical situations all the time.

But I have had decades of experience of believing and then developing within myself a belief of what a God worthy of belief would require. And now, I don't think a good God would require my belief. 

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29 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I feel genuinely good about approaching God as an atheist and one who does not believe in the church.

You mean the hypothetical Latter-day Saint version of God and after-life, right?  If he really does exist as we believe, then you feel your conscience is clear.  That is good to hear.

There are other iterations of God and after-life that I might not feel so "good" about approaching, being a Latter-day Saint or atheist.     

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3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Humans consider hypothetical situations all the time.

But I have had decades of experience of believing and then developing within myself a belief of what a God worthy of belief would require. And now, I don't think a good God would require my belief. 

I've thought before, hypothetically, what I would do if I were face to face with God and He told me the LDS church was true and I should have stuck with it. My first question would be to ask why He made it look so obviously (IMO) not true. 

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2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My first question would be to ask why He made it look so obviously (IMO) not true. 

Did He make it that way?  Or have you just focused on the imperfections of the members of the church?

I ask that because I have a sister-in-law who gets so caught up in the things that members of the church do wrong that she misses the things that the church does right.

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Just now, ksfisher said:

Did He make it that way?  Or have you just focused on the imperfections of the members of the church?

I ask that because I have a sister-in-law who gets so caught up in the things that members of the church do wrong that she misses the things that the church does right.

I don't much care about the imperfections of the members. Never have. My sister and I had a conversation once in which we expressed gratitude that our father had taught us to expect church members and leaders to make mistakes, even big ones. Thus, we were never disappointed. 

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7 minutes ago, pogi said:

You mean the hypothetical Latter-day Saint version of God and after-life, right?  If he really does exist as we believe, then you feel your conscience is clear.  That is good to hear.

There are other iterations of God and after-life that I might not feel so "good" about approaching, being a Latter-day Saint or atheist.     

No I mean any God worthy of worship. There might be gods unworthy of worship, but I am okay with whatever consequences might result. I'll prioritise wellness in a life that I have now and have confidence that good will prevail.

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1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't much care about the imperfections of the members. Never have. My sister and I had a conversation once in which we expressed gratitude that our father had taught us to expect church members and leaders to make mistakes, even big ones. Thus, we were never disappointed. 

That's a very healthy attitude.

How then, has God (hypothetically even) made the church difficult to believe in?

Side note: I find what people believe, why they believe it, and how that differs from what I believe fascinating.

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1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

That's a very healthy attitude.

How then, has God (hypothetically even) made the church difficult to believe in?

Side note: I find what people believe, why they believe it, and how that differs from what I believe fascinating.

I'm pretty sure it's against board rules to share why I don't believe. 

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7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Did He make it that way?  Or have you just focused on the imperfections of the members of the church?

I ask that because I have a sister-in-law who gets so caught up in the things that members of the church do wrong that she misses the things that the church does right.

I have an answer for this, and it essentially goes along with my first thread reply, when I said I wished the church worked a certain way and carried the narrative CV expressed:

It would be like going to a friend's house where everyone loved lasagna and think lasagna is the best food ever and I had to pretend I love lasagna as much as them. But I don't. I like lasagna, but I don't agree with their extreme views. And I don't want to spend much time in a place where I must pretend. And I certainly won't be edified in such a place.

 

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@Jerry Atric "What saddens me is far too often we exclude the "sinners" that need the temple the most."
"The only person who can keep you out of the temple is you, not a bishop nor a stake president."

So, care to reconcile the contradiction between your two contradictory statements?

 

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

Because I don't think you realize even when you're in the temple, you're surrounded by sinners. Sinners who lied to get in the temple. Sinners who beat their wife the night before. Sinners who cheated on their spouse. Do you believe this to be true?

Tell me you're not paying attention to who says what in this thread, without telling me you're not paying attention to who says what in this thread.   

 

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

 If you do believe there's sinners in the temple on any given day, does that mean they drive the Holy Ghost from the lord's temple while they're in there? 

Not unless their behavior in the temple does.  The Holy Ghost is for humans, and humans are sinners.  I'm a fallen imperfect error-prone agenda-driven sinner.  The Holy Ghost is for me.  The Light of Christ is for me.   And all the other sinners.  

 

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

If ordinances are performed by a sinner while attending the temple,  are the ordinances null and void because they're not performed by a "worthy member?"     

Consider the words "sanctity" and "validity".

Here's a good answer to the question: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1984/10/q-and-a-questions-and-answers/what-should-i-do-if-i-know-that-someone-who-is-administering-the-sacrament-is-unworthy?lang=eng

Quote

Ordinances of the priesthood are valid if they are performed by authorized priesthood bearers in the prescribed manner. While local leaders will want to do everything within their power to see that only worthy brethren administer the sacrament, the ordinance does not become invalid if someone involved is unworthy at the time he participates. The sanctity of the ordinance is violated, but not the validity. If the partaker is worthy and sincere, all the possible blessings and benefits will be his.

 

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I've thought before, hypothetically, what I would do if I were face to face with God and He told me the LDS church was true and I should have stuck with it. My first question would be to ask why He made it look so obviously (IMO) not true. 

I suppose "not true" has some potential ambiguity for what one intends to convey.

A. Does the Church get all the doctrines of reality (as exemplified by teachings of its leaders and correlated materials) 100% correct. No.
B. Does the Church in actuality possess the authority of God to bind on earth and in heaven covenants that have the potential to bring individuals to God. Yes.

Are both of those points things intermingled with human imperfection, foibles, and evolving understanding. Yes. I guess, being a true believer myself, I don't see the "obviously not true" things you see. Maybe we are looking for and expecting different things from the Church? What would you expect from God's "true" Church?


“If God had consulted me before embarking on the Creation, I would have suggested something simpler.” King Alfonso the X when commenting on the program to update the Ptolemaic tables.

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4 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

We both agree it's the God's house. We differ in believing who's worthy to enter. I think it's selfish to exclude 99.97% of Heavenly Father's children from his house. If you consider only 30% of Mormons are "worthy" to enter the temple,  it's more like 99.99% of God's children are banned from entering the temple. Why?

Because God commands it. 
 

Added:  I don’t use “worthy”.  I prefer who is “prepared”.

Edited by Calm
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2 minutes ago, Nofear said:

I suppose "not true" has some potential ambiguity for what one intends to convey.

A. Does the Church get all the doctrines of reality (as exemplified by teachings of its leaders and correlated materials) 100% correct. No.
B. Does the Church in actuality possess the authority of God to bind on earth and in heaven covenants that have the potential to bring individuals to God. Yes.

Are both of those points things intermingled with human imperfection, foibles, and evolving understanding. Yes. I guess, being a true believer myself, I don't see the "obviously not true" things you see. Maybe we are looking for and expecting different things from the Church? What would you expect from God's "true" Church?


“If God had consulted me before embarking on the Creation, I would have suggested something simpler.” King Alfonso the X when commenting on the program to update the Ptolemaic tables.

I will just say, as I have before, that there are things about the church that strike against my reason. More importantly, there are things that hurt my conscience. 

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1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

True.

How about this: in general, what do you see as barriers to people gaining, or keeping, a testimony of the church?

I really have no answer for that. As I said, for me, I got tired of trying to make excuses for things that were not true and/or hurt my conscience. 

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1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

We both agree it's the God's house. We differ in believing who's worthy to enter. I think it's selfish to exclude 99.97% of Heavenly Father's children from his house. If you consider only 30% of Mormons are "worthy" to enter the temple,  it's more like 99.99% of God's children are banned from entering the temple. Why?

One of the purposes of the Church is to prepare individuals to enter the temples to make sacred covenants. It would actually be bad for somebody to enter into the temple and make covenants that they would have no intention of keeping. Do some members do that anyway. Yes. We want to avoid that. Temple recommends are an admittedly imperfect "gate" to help individuals decide if they would be willing to accept those covenants. The truth is that the vast majority of humanity quite simply not ready or willing to live up to the expectations that God has for us if we would be full partakers of the works He does. And by vast majority, I mean everybody, 100%. But, we are given steps to progress towards that state if we are willing. Truthfully answering positively to the temple recommend questions are among the least of those steps.
 


“Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.” -- Joseph Smith

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11 minutes ago, pogi said:

 I think she was addressing your point that the temple should not be used as a "safe space" or refuge.  Clearly, her passages refute that claim.  You clearly misunderstand the purposes of the temple from a holistic perspective.  Can you at least acknowledge that point?

Her passages do not refute the point I'm making. We're all God's children. But for some reason 99.9% or so are banned from entering the house of the lord. Why? 

We're a very young restored religion. And we're facing a lot of growing pains right now. Loudmouth mormon accused me of being a teenager because of my beliefs. I find that funny because I personally think I see the bigger picture and understand what our religion actually has to offer.     

     When my kids were young I built them a tree fort and the first thing they did was post a card board sign on the door that read, KEEP OUT! They felt empowered and a sense of authority because they were the gatekeepers of the mighty tree fort. It was a beautiful tree fort, and many of the neighborhood kids desperately wanted to climb the ladder so they could enter the mighty fort. But my kids were very selective about who entered. Because my kids were young, they often based entry into the fort on someone's looks or popularity. Excluding the kids that might actually be a better friend than the ones they allowed to play in the fort. This saddened me.

  The temple is no different compared to how my children handled entry into their tree fort. Dont forget, just a few years ago we wouldn't allow certain people in the temple because of what they look like. Right now we exclude most of Heavenly Father's righteous children because we're scared we might lose or mishandle the authority we've been entrusted with. I think that comes from being persecuted for so so  many years. We need to stop looking at other religions as less than. 

37 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you consider all Abrahamic religions to be God's covenant people?  Clearly, the Isaiah passages make clear that is who the temple is for, and no one else

Are Christians God's covenant people? If so, are you able to define a Christian?

 

38 minutes ago, pogi said:

What about Hindu's, atheists and other non-Abrahamic people?  They don't read Isaiah.  Should they be allowed in our temple too for missionary purposes

Of course! Are we not all missionaries? Are we not here to convert as many people as possible to the Gospel? We should be using the temples to promote the gospel. Why do you want to deny entry to the people who would benefit the most?

 

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you think we are in apostasy, or heading to another one?

This made me laugh. You do realize why the church was restored? We're a "in the last days" religion. Everything we believe in is based on an apostasy. Do you not believe that? Are you telling me you don't think we're heading for an apostasy? 

 

48 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you fancy yourself a prophet?

Why would you ask this question?

 

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

  Are you a part of some fringe Mormon group, or have plans to start one?

Why would you ask this question? Is it because I believe God wants more than .1% of his children to enjoy the blessings of the temple? .1%, are you OK with that percentage? 

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9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I will just say, as I have before, that there are things about the church that strike against my reason. More importantly, there are things that hurt my conscience. 

Totally understandable on both accounts and sound like things that would be worthy of discussion (albeit perhaps not in this thread).

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7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I really have no answer for that. As I said, for me, I got tired of trying to make excuses for things that were not true and/or hurt my conscience. 

What I'm going to say here is entirely meant to broaden perspective.

We often care about what we're forced to care about.

One group that we won't see at church (as with most churches) are those with impactful social anxieties. It's people who can't do crowded spaces. It's a LOT of people and they're all under the radar because who would they tell? If we bring up the issue, we'll all forget in a few minutes because we have no idea how to help them.

I only care because my psyche is changed and I feel that anxiety now - just not as strongly as they do. However, if I'm asked to pointlessly crowd-in for a lesson, I'm not going to.

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