The Death of "Free Agency"

[The Unclean Deacon]

A run through sources to demonstrate that "Free Agency was a crucial part of Mormon theology throughout its past but in recent years Free Agency has been tossed aside for a different doctrine being labeled "Moral agency" or "representative Agency".  In this new rhetoric the doctrine being taught is that when you are 8 years old (and still may believe Santa Claus at that time) a child being baptized into the LDS Church gives up their "free Agency" and takes on "moral agency" or "representative agency" which means you now have to choose to do what the Church tells you to do.  

How do you feel about losing your "free Agency"?

 

Elder Packer discarding “Free” from “Free Agency” – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1992/04/our-moral-environment?lang=eng

David Bednar instructing Moral Agency or Representative Agency – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmErOV9oQZ8

Stake Leader incorporating Elder Bednar's Representative Agency Doctrine to state all Mormon males are obligated to serve missions. – https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/vukmi1/serving_a_mormon_mission_is_no_longer_a_choice/

LDS General Conference Search Engine to see how “Free Agency” was taught over 2 centuries – https://www.lds-general-conference.org/

Elder Delbert Stapley (Q12) “Using Our Free Agency” – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1975/05/using-our-free-agency?lang=eng

Elder McConkie made the following statement about "free agency": “Four great principles must be in force if there is to be agency: 1. Laws must exist, laws ordained by an Omnipotent power, laws which can be obeyed or disobeyed; 2. Opposites must exist—good and evil, virtue and vice, right and wrong—that is, there must be an opposition, one force pulling … the other. 3. A knowledge of good and evil must be had by those who are to enjoy the agency, that is, they must know the difference between the opposites; and 4. An unfettered power of choice must prevail. Agency is given to man as an essential part of the great plan of redemption.” (Mormon Doctrine, Bookcraft, Inc., 1966 ed., p. 26.)

“Teachings of Joseph Smith” Study Manual – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-24?lang=eng

“I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.” – Joseph Smith

“No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (D&C 121:37, 41) – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/121?lang=eng

Principles of Leadership Teachers Manual Lesson 2 – Honoring the Agency of Those We Lead – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/principles-of-leadership-teachers-manual-religion-180/lesson-2-honoring-the-agency-of-those-we-lead?lang=eng

“Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselves—to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life” (2 Nephi 10:23).

Neal A. Maxwell, who was later called to the Quorum of the Twelve, wrote that leaders basically follow one of three styles of leadership: manipulative, directive, and participative. In manipulative leadership, the leader manipulates people and circumstances to achieve group goals. In directive leadership, the leader makes decisions, with or without input from the group. In participative leadership, the group shares responsibility for making decisions. Read Brother Maxwell’s discussion of these principles in the teacher resources section below. Note that Brother Maxwell recommended a mix of directive and participative leadership styles. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/principles-of-leadership-teachers-manual-religion-180/lesson-2-honoring-the-agency-of-those-we-lead?lang=eng

“If a leader uses guilt to motivate a person to do something, is the leader honoring that person’s agency? Explain your answer.” – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/principles-of-leadership-teachers-manual-religion-180/lesson-2-honoring-the-agency-of-those-we-lead?lang=eng

Agency = The ability and privilege God gives people to choose and to act for themselves. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/free-agency?lang=eng

The Governing Ones By Elder William R. Bradford Of the First Quorum of the Seventy – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/10/the-governing-ones?lang=eng
The most basic, fundamental principle of truth, that upon which the entire plan of God is founded, is free agency. As an individual you have the right to govern yourself. It is divinely given to you to think and act as you wish. It is your decision. It must be pointed out, however, that although you have the free agency to choose for yourself, you do not have the right to choose what will be the result of your decision.

Helaman 14:30  And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a knowledge and he hath made you free. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/hel/14?lang=eng&id=30#29

D&C58:27 Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; 28 For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/58?lang=eng&id=27#26

Now, none of us are on the narrow path all of the time. All of us make mistakes. That is why Lehi, who understood the Savior’s role in preserving and reclaiming our agency, taught Jacob—and us: “The Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon.”21 That is the key—“to act for themselves and not to be acted upon.” – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2006/04/to-act-for-ourselves-the-gift-and-blessings-of-agency?lang=eng

In our premortal life we had moral agency. One purpose of earth life is to show what choices we will make (see 2 Nephi 2:15–16). If we were forced to choose the right, we would not be able to show what we would choose for ourselves. Also, we are happier doing things when we have made our own choices. Agency was one of the principal issues to arise in the premortal Council in Heaven. It was one of the main causes of the conflict between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. The Lord has said that all people are responsible for their own motives, attitudes, desires, and actions. Even though we are free to choose our course of action, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions. The consequences, whether good or bad, follow as a natural result of any choice we make (see Galatians 6:7; Revelation 22:12). – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/agency-and-accountability?lang=eng

God’s plan is the opposite of "Satan’s plan of compulsion" – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/10/commandments-to-live-by?lang=eng&country=au

Church and Family Leaders Should Honor the Agency of Those They Lead – He never compelled them to obey Him. – Ask how leaders might be tempted not to respect the agency of others. – If a leader uses guilt to motivate a person to do something, is the leader honoring that person’s agency? – https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/principles-of-leadership-teachers-manual-religion-180/lesson-2-honoring-the-agency-of-those-we-lead?lang=eng

an Article of Faith states: We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. That is the expression of a great principle, a principle that has been operative among the children of God from the earliest period of which we have any record. It was pursuant to that principle, and in the exercise of the rights guaranteed thereby, that a third of the hosts of heaven revolted, in an effort to overcome the plan which God adopted. Personally, I would not in any way, and in the lightest or slightest degree, hamper anyone’s free agency. Literally, I feel and believe that men should worship how, where, or what they may. That is the spirit of the priesthood, the priesthood which we hold. The priesthood never compels. God himself does not compel the intellect, nor does he attempt to overthrow it. – J. Reuben Clark 1949

Free agency is an everlasting principle which has existed with God from all eternity. It is a gift from him given with the hope that we will apply it wisely in the conduct of our personal lives. Freedom of choice is a moral agency which we should keep uppermost in our minds in all our activities and decisions. “By virtue of this agency you and I and all mankind are made responsible beings, responsible for the course we pursue, the lives we live, the deeds we do in the body.” (Wilford Woodruff, Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, Bookcraft, Inc., 1969, pp. 8–9.)

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by The Unclean Deacon

[Bernard Gui]

Could you explain your heartburn over agency in more detail? Throwing out a host of quotes, talks, and YouTube videos doesn’t help much.
 

Elder Packer removing free from agency…

Quote

No Free Agency

The phrase “free agency” does not appear in scripture. The only agency spoken of there is moral agency, “which,” the Lord said, “I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.” (D&C 101:78; italics added.)

Quote

D&C 101:78 That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment.

Seems consistent to me.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[ksfisher]

25 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

 a child being baptized into the LDS Church gives up their "free Agency" and takes on "moral agency" or "representative agency" which means you now have to choose to do what the Church tells you to do.

CFR on this please.

[The Unclean Deacon]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Elder Packer removing free from agency…

Seems consistent to me.

except once you hear Bednar expound on it and then the recent push to have local leaders impose missions for men using this new framing of Agency and something is very differrent from the "free Agency" of the 90's and earlier.

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

CFR on this please.

If I'm remembering right, this quote was by a counselor in a stake presidency (?) and was in a talk that he gave at a stake conference.  People weren't very appreciate of his take on the issue and it ended up online.  I think @Calm has the reference.

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

except once you hear Bednar expound on it and then the recent push to have local leaders impose missions for men using this new framing of Agency and something is very differrent from the "free Agency" of the 90's and earlier.

How could a local leader impose a mission on anyone?  They can't make them go.

From what I'm hearing, these talks are not about the end of agency but about the consequences of choosing to use your agency in a way that goes against God's commandments for you.  Especially as it applies to those who have made covenants with God.  

Kind of a 'you can choose but you can't choose the consequences of your choices' take on it.

That seems completely consistent with the way agency has been taught (regardless of what it's called) since the beginning, though I don't agree with the changes in terminology that some leaders are using to try to teach this idea.  

 

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If I'm remembering right, this quote was by a counselor in a stake presidency (?) and was in a talk that he gave at a stake conference.  People weren't very appreciate of his take on the issue and it ended up online.  I think @Calm has the reference.

As I recall it was a linguistic confusion and very poor logic/ philosophy.

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If I'm remembering right, this quote was by a counselor in a stake presidency (?) and was in a talk that he gave at a stake conference.  People weren't very appreciate of his take on the issue and it ended up online.  I think @Calm has the reference.

If that's true then I'm sure the OP will be able to provide it.

[Amulek]

48 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

except once you hear Bednar expound on it and then the recent push to have local leaders impose missions for men using this new framing of Agency and something is very differrent from the "free Agency" of the 90's and earlier.

Um...isn't like the very first talk you have listed - the one from Elder Packer - from 1992? So by "the 90's and earlier" you mean, like, 1991 and earlier?

Puh-lease.

There is nothing at all inconsistent between the church's previous and current teachings regarding agency. And the expectation that young men serve a mission has been around for decades now.

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Amulek

[The Unclean Deacon]

55 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

CFR on this please.

 

[The Unclean Deacon]

37 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

If that's true then I'm sure the OP will be able to provide it.

It is happening in more than one place all at the same time and it is based on Bednar's teaching from a few years ago.  The Church is instructing local leaders to impose Missions are not a choice.... because you don't have "free agency"

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

It is happening in more than one place all at the same time and it is based on Bednar's teaching from a few years ago.  The Church is instructing local leaders to impose Missions are not a choice.... because you don't have "free agency"

CFR that Elder Bednar ever said that or anything to its effect. 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

 

Do you have a source from actual church doctrine?  Something published by the church, teaching by a member of the First Presidency or an apostle, etc.  Because as far as I'm aware 1st counselors in stake presidencies, although good men who are trying their best to serve the Lord, are not sources of official church doctrine.

So, to your assertion that we give up our free agency at the age of 8 and "...have to choose to do what the Church tells you to do," do you have a source for this assertion based on actual church doctrine?

Please not also that in the remarks above that the speaker never says that we give up our agency and do what the "Church" tells us to do.  He's saying we should do what the Lord asks us to do.  I think you're unfairly putting words in the speakers mouth.

[ksfisher]

25 minutes ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

The Church is instructing local leaders to impose Missions

CFR that the church is instructing local leaders to "impose" missions.  Something official please.

[The Nehor]

If you are going copy and paste your entire OP at least take the coloring out and try to disguise it a little. That is just lazy.

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you are going copy and paste your entire OP at least take the coloring out and try to disguise it a little. That is just lazy.

I kinda liked the orange.  Made me feel like sticking my thumb in a dike to stop the Zuiderzee from flooding my fields of tulips.

Either that or hungry for carrots.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

CFR on "as a 5th Sunday lesson, every Bishop was required to give a lesson on how no young man has a choice to serve a mission.  It's a requirement".

 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

CFR on "as a 5th Sunday lesson, every Bishop was required to give a lesson on how no young man has a choice to serve a mission.  It's a requirement".

 

We had the apparent mandatory 5th sunday lesson on missionary work but I guess our ward screwed it up because we did not get the bolded message above.  Not even close.  It was almost completely on member/missionary work.

Edit to add:  we must really be apostate, because our bishop didn't even teach this lesson.  It was taught by the Sunday School presidency.

Edited August 18, 2022 by bluebell

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

CFR on "as a 5th Sunday lesson, every Bishop was required to give a lesson on how no young man has a choice to serve a mission.  It's a requirement".

 

Yeah, our 5th Sunday lesson was about member-missionary work.  That preaching the gospel is a priesthood duty was brought up, but it took up about 3 minutes of the time.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR that Elder Bednar ever said that or anything to its effect. 

It's in the video he posted in the OP.

From minute 2:45-2:57 he says:

Quote

 

Have you ever heard someone say, a member of the Church who has entered into the baptismal covenant, "I have my agency.  I can do whatever I want!"  Have you ever heard that?  Yeah, you know what the answer is?  No, you can't!  You don't understand agency.  You don't have agency to do whatever you want!  The hymn is called "Choose the Right" not "Choose what you want!"...you can't just choose what you want. 

...Do we have the option not to pay our tithing?   Nope. 

 

I am pretty sure that Stake counselor is playing off of this.

I think the idea of his message is that we can't just choose whatever we want without breaking covenants and without consequences - at least I hope that is all he is saying.  I have to say, the way he says it is pretty...bad, TBH.  It is not true that we can't choose whatever we want.  Yes, we can!  We just can't choose what we want without consequences.  If that is what he meant, he did a pretty terrible job at explaining it, and now we see other leaders parroting his terrible delivery. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by pogi

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

It's in the video he posted in the OP.

From minute 2:45-2:57 he says:

I am pretty sure that Stake counselor is playing off of this.

I have to say, I think the idea of his message that we can't just choose whatever we want without breaking covenants and without consequences - at least I hope that is all he is saying.  I have to say, the way he says it is pretty...bad, TBH.  It is not true that we can't choose whatever we want.  Yes, we can!  We just can't choose what we want without consequences.  IF that is what he meant, he did a pretty terrible job at explaining it, and now we see other leaders parroting it. 

It seems obvious that he meant it like that, because he knows there are thousands (probably millions) of members who are choosing not to pay tithing.  I agree though that it wasn't a great way to say it.  

 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, The Unclean Deacon said:

except once you hear Bednar expound on it and then the recent push to have local leaders impose missions for men using this new framing of Agency and something is very differrent from the "free Agency" of the 90's and earlier.

Do you have the text from the talk? Videos don’t cut it. 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

Um...isn't like the very first talk you have listed - the one from Elder Packer - from 1992? So by "the 90's and earlier" you mean, like, 1991 and earlier?

Puh-lease.

There is nothing at all inconsistent between the church's previous and current teachings regarding agency. And the expectation that young men serve a mission has been around for decades now.

 

Oh no! Revelation in process! That can't be true! 😱

All that would show is that the church is operating as it should - the only true AND LIVING church!

Edited August 18, 2022 by mfbukowski

[JustAnAustralian]

I don't have the local copy of the PDF we got sent for the 5th Sunday session, but what looks to be the same stuff still appears to be on the church website https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/share/fifthSundayDiscussion?lang=eng

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

It's in the video he posted in the OP.

From minute 2:45-2:57 he says:

I am pretty sure that Stake counselor is playing off of this.

I think the idea of his message is that we can't just choose whatever we want without breaking covenants and without consequences - at least I hope that is all he is saying.  I have to say, the way he says it is pretty...bad, TBH.  It is not true that we can't choose whatever we want.  Yes, we can!  We just can't choose what we want without consequences.  If that is what he meant, he did a pretty terrible job at explaining it, and now we see other leaders parroting his terrible delivery. 

Tell your landlord you don't feel like paying the rent/mortgage this month because you have free agency.

That'll get you "free" REAL fast!

Edited August 18, 2022 by mfbukowski