Meadowchik Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 On 7/6/2022 at 5:54 PM, T-Shirt said: None of this has anything to do with ectopic pregnancies and miscarriages. Why do you continue to spread false information about treatment for these conditions as being potentially criminal? It is nothing more than fearmongering in hopes of ginning up support for your belief system from women that you appear to think aren't very smart. Why would you even want people to support your position if it is based on, not just false information, but false information that you are spreading? If you are going to fight for a cause, at least do it with the truth. You attacked my motives, going beyond accusing me of "spreading false information" --which btw you did not reply with references when issued a CFR. It's easy to throw out derogatory garbage instead of really getting into the issue which is what something like this requires if we're really going to help.
Meadowchik Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 12 hours ago, MustardSeed said: This topic already has 44 pages. Its a hot topic. It make people angry and bitter on both sides. This will never get resolved, and includes issues of morality, sex, family, freedom, life, and death. Why wouldn't it make people on all sides angry and bitter? It gets better all the time, on an individual/communal basis, but it can also get worse for some people. I think that empathy would go a long way. 1
Meadowchik Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 12 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Warren is always angry. No, but good on her for not being afraid of revealing her anger especially if it's reasoned and righteous. Lots of righteous people are correct to be angry now, especially if that anger flows out of empathy for the oppressed (women) and for the unborn...the "pro-life" platform makes very little noise about the well-being of the unborn outside of its political agenda to ban abortion.
Calm Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 59 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: which btw you did not reply with references when issued a CFR. He may not have had the chance and is unable to now.
Meadowchik Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Calm said: He may not have had the chance and is unable to now. True!
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 18 hours ago, Danzo said: I suspect the opposition to Thomas has everything to do with opposition to his opinions and decisions and relatively little to do with the accused behavior. ... Ding, ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!!!! "Tell him what he's won, Bob!" 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, Calm said: Not among church members and friends I know, immorality from anyone is not excused. I could say the same about Church members I know who voted for Trump. Added later: I don’t excuse immorality on anyone’s part. But it makes a difference to me whether the behavior is alleged to have transpired while the person was in office, as it did with Clinton. I’m not aware of such taking place with Trump post-2016. Ergo, I voted against him the first time but not the second. Edited July 8, 2022 by Scott Lloyd
Popular Post pogi Posted July 8, 2022 Popular Post Posted July 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Added later: I don’t excuse immorality on anyone’s part. But it makes a difference to me whether the behavior is alleged to have transpired while the person was in office, as it did with Clinton. I’m not aware of such taking place with Trump post-2016. Ergo, I voted against him the first time but not the second. If the person is not repentant and continues to excuse past behavior while in office, I don't know why it matters when it happened. The character of the man is unchanged. If you don't think that Trump was engaged in any immorality (which is not limited to sexual sin) while in office, then you have not been watching the Jan 6 hearings. 6
smac97 Posted July 8, 2022 Author Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Quote Warren is always angry. No, but good on her for not being afraid of revealing her anger especially if it's reasoned and righteous. Well, let's take a look at Sen. Warren's "reasoned and righteous" effort to end pregnancy resource centers: Quote Elizabeth Warren’s War on Pregnancy Resource Centers Abortion supporters often claim that they’re “pro-choice,” not “pro-abortion,” a claim that regularly collides with their actual policies. When government policy is bent relentlessly to favor abortion, supporting a woman’s “right to choose” abortion isn’t distinct in any meaningful way from supporting abortion itself. But abortion supporters reveal how shallow their “pro-choice” ideology is when they oppose helping pregnant mothers make, or even learn about, any choice other than abortion. The most recent example is on display in Congress, where four Democrats are targeting pregnancy resource centers, purporting to “prohibit disinformation in the advertising of abortion services.” ... “With Roe gone, it’s more important than ever to crack down on so-called ‘crisis pregnancy centers’ that mislead and deceive patients seeking abortion care,” said Massachusetts senator Elizabeth Warren, promoting her bill. “We need to crack down on the deceptive practices these centers use to prevent people from getting abortion care, and I’ve got a bill to do just that,” she added. Under Warren’s bill, charities could be fined $100,000 or “50 percent of the revenues earned by the ultimate parent entity” of the charity for violating the act’s “prohibition on disinformation” related to abortion. But the legislation itself does not define prohibited speech. Warren’s bill directs the Federal Trade Commission to “promulgate rules to prohibit a person from advertising with the use of misleading statements related to the provision of abortion services.” ... Warren also signed on to a letter in which members of Congress tried to pressure Google into suppressing search results for such centers — which was followed by a similar letter from the office of New York attorney general Letitia James. It appears not to have dawned on these abortion enthusiasts that pregnancy resource centers are the ones in need of protection, as activists have spent the past two months firebombing and otherwise vandalizing them in the name of promoting abortion access. ... Nationally, pregnancy resource centers outnumber abortion facilities three to one, and in some states by as many as eleven to one. Knowing that many women choose abortion because they feel that they have no other option, the pro-life movement has placed tremendous resources into these centers, which exist to offer alternatives to abortion, usually at no cost. That help takes many forms: pregnancy tests and ultrasounds, other prenatal care, pregnancy counseling, assistance considering adoption and navigating the adoption process, and financial or material support for women in need. Warren’s legislation codifies the long-standing animus of abortion advocates toward these centers, relying on the oft-repeated but rarely substantiated claim that these centers harm women. Pressed for examples, abortion supporters have little to offer. A report from abortion-advocacy groups examined the websites of about 600 pregnancy resource centers in nine states, labeling them “deceptive” on the basis that they offer “virtually no medical care,” despite using “language and imagery signifying they were providers of medical services.” In fact, many of these centers do offer some types of medical care, and the report divulges no instance of a center advertising for specific services that aren’t actually available. Meanwhile, NARAL Pro-Choice America’s investigation of pregnancy resource centers — which it labels “fake women’s health clinics” — has turned up evidence only of “lies” such as this one: “More than 67 percent of the locations intentionally referred to the fetus as ‘baby’ and told our investigator she was already a mother because she was already pregnant.” It is only in the upside-down logic of abortion advocacy that these fundamental realities could be depicted as lies. ... Research suggests that the model works. One 2021 study found that pregnant women who visit a pregnancy resource center are about 20 percent less likely to choose abortion than pregnant women who don’t visit one. And the Charlotte Lozier Institute estimates that over the past five years alone, the nearly 3,000 pregnancy resource centers in the U.S. have saved the lives of more than 828,000 unborn children. More here: Quote Quote Under Warren’s bill, charities could be fined $100,000 or “50 percent of the revenues earned by the ultimate parent entity” of the charity for violating the act’s “prohibition on disinformation” related to abortion. But the legislation itself does not define prohibited speech. ... The alleged “disinformation” includes things like referring to a baby as a baby rather than a fetus and informing women about the developmental stages of pregnancy. They don’t want women to be told the truth about abortion and about babies in the womb because their business model relies on disinformation. According to the Charlotte Lozier Institute, “In its 2019-20 annual report, Planned Parenthood reported $1.6 billion in income and over $2.0 billion in net assets—an increase from the previous report. $510 million came from private contributions, down 14% from the previous report.” Sen. Warren does not seem to be in favor of "choice" unless it is to abort. As this fellow put it: "So, in Warren’s world abortion clinics are the tops but crisis pregnancy centers are elaborate ruses that commit the heinous crime of not killing babies." Or as this fellow put it: "From pro-choice to pro-abortion to anti-birth." More here: Quote According to the Charlotte Lozier Institute, a pro-life think tank, “In 2021, there are approximately 3,000 pregnancy center locations in the U.S. (counting medical mobile units as separate locations).” Contrast that to the 808 abortuaries nationwide. Here are some fast facts on crisis pregnancy centers in 2019: 8 in 10 locations (or 2,132) offer Free Ultrasounds 486,213 Free Ultrasounds Performed 731,884 Free Pregnancy Tests 967,251 Free Consultations with New Clients 810 Locations offer STD Testing 563 Locations offer STD treatment onsite 291,230 Clients Attended Parenting and Prenatal Education Classes 21,698 Clients Attended After-Abortion Support and Recovery Sessions 305 Locations offer Abortion Pill Reversal 2,525 Locations offer Material Assistance such as baby items (including diapers, baby clothing outfits, new car seats and strollers) 120 Medical Mobile Units with Ultrasound (at least) rolling on the road to bring services to women out in the community 14,977 Paid Staff (25 percent of whom are licensed medical professionals) 53,855 Volunteers (12 percent of whom are licensed medical professionals) 10,215 licensed medical professionals involved as pregnancy center workers (paid staff and volunteers combined) The data gives lie to the claim that conservatives don’t care about women with unplanned pregnancies. Sen. Warren wants to financially destroy the organizations that provide these services to women, while continuing to insist on public funding for the abortion mills of Planned Parenthood. This is "reasoned and righteous?" This is advocating for resources for pregnant women? 7 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Lots of righteous people are correct to be angry now, especially if that anger flows out of empathy for the oppressed (women) and for the unborn...the "pro-life" platform makes very little noise about the well-being of the unborn outside of its political agenda to ban abortion. I invite you to re-visit the above bullet point list showing that crisis pregnany centers do, then come back and try - with a straight face - to say that "the 'pro-life' platform makes very little noise about the well-being of the unborn." This woman aptly sums up the purpose of false characterizations of the pro-life movement, such as what you say above: Quote The data {regarding resources provided in crisis pregnancy centers} gives lie to the claim that conservatives don’t care about women with unplanned pregnancies. It’s nothing more than a scare tactic {} to get more women into abortion clinics. ... The truth is, ... {we} have been caring for pregnant women since the ghastly Roe v. Wade decision in 1973 and they’re now ramping up their efforts in the wake of the Supreme Court ruling it unconstitutional. But Warren and other Democrats are trying to shut pro-life clinics down with a bill that would fine them out of existence. I think that is right. Scaring women into thinking that abortion is their only viable option will likely increase the number of women who choose abortion. And the more women that choose abortion, the more money flows into Planned Parenthood: Quote According to the Charlotte Lozier Institute, “In its 2019-20 annual report, Planned Parenthood reported $1.6 billion in income and over $2.0 billion in net assets—an increase from the previous report. $510 million came from private contributions, down 14% from the previous report.” Not only that, but “Taxpayer funding in the form of government grants, contracts, and Medicaid reimbursements hit $618.1 million, or almost $1.7 million per day—an annual increase of $1.3 million from the previous year to make up 38% of Planned Parenthood’s overall revenue.” [Emphasis added] The report adds, “Planned Parenthood’s taxpayer funding has increased by nearly 27% since 2010″ and their excess of total revenue over total expenses is $69.7 million.” And, in fact, “Last year Planned Parenthood reported an excess of total revenue over total expenses of $110.5 million.” Tell me again why these butchers are allowed to come anywhere near government money? Think how many women and babies could be helped with that $618 million in government funding. Fair questions, these. Would you support federal funding for crisis pregnancy centers? If not, why not? It seems like claimed "empathy for the oppressed (women) and for the unborn" only arises in support of abortion. And good luck providing a reasoned and rational explanation for how electively killing an unborn child is an expression of "empathy" for that child. Now that Roe is gone, pro-lifers need to continue and increase support efforts like crisis pregnancy centers. Unfortunately, Sen. Warren's legislative attempts to destroy or hinder these organizations' efforts are not the only thing the "pro choice" crowd is doing. Lots and lots and lots of actual violence: Quote The FBI is investigating attacks on pregnancy resource centers across the country as acts of domestic violent extremism, the bureau announced on Friday. “The FBI is investigating a series of attacks and threats targeting pregnancy resource centers and faith-based organizations across the country,” the FBI said in a statement first reported by Fox News. “The FBI takes all threats seriously and we continue to work closely with our law enforcement partners and will remain vigilant to protect our communities.” The investigations come after violent pro-abortion groups have targeted these organizations following the leak of the Supreme Court’s draft decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health, which purported to overturn Roe v. Wade. These groups counsel women on alternatives to abortion and, often, provide shelter and other resources for new and expectant mothers. Many of them are religiously affiliated with Christian organizations and churches. And let's not forget the assassination attempt on a Supreme Court Justice: Quote The attacks have, so far, involved assaults on physical property where graffiti, paint, fecal matter, are strewn on the exterior walls and where windows and doors are broken. However, a recent assassination attempt on Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh at his home in Maryland stemmed from the publication of his home address by ‘Ruth Sent Us,’ one of the groups involved in virulent pro-abortion protests outside such centers. And not being satsified with the assassination attempt on Justice Kavanaugh, the "Ruth Sent Us" folks went on to threaten his wife and children: Quote On Wednesday, Ruth Sent Us tweeted a smarmy parody of concern for Justice Kavanaugh and rejected taking any responsibility for inspiring the assassination attempt. Then the group went right over the line and brought his wife and children into the conversation. “A special message for Ashley Kavanaugh and your daughters — this billboard was on your school grounds. We feel for you,” tweeted the radicals, along with a picture of a sign at the girls’ school. They also threatened Justice Coney-Barrett, and her children as well: Quote And if another deranged maniac just happens to target the children at that school, we’re sure Ruth Sent Us will once again deny any responsibility. Earlier that day, the despicable activists reminded followers that Justice Amy Coney Barrett has seven children and pointed to the school attended by the kids: Quote If you’re in the DC metro area, join us. Our protests at Barrett’s home moved the needle to this coverage. Falls Church is a People of Praise stronghold. She sends her seven kids to a People of Praise school that she sat on the Board of Directors for. She attends church DAILY. Meadowchik, is this stuff an appropriate expression of what you are calling "reasoned and righteous" anger? Getting back to the violence: Quote Pro-abortion group Jane’s Revenge had recently taken credit for an attack on Wisconsin Family Action in Madison, Wis., in May, where two Molotov cocktails were thrown into its offices after windows were broken. Extremists also threw red paint on a similar location in Washington, D.C. Similar arson attacks were also reported at such centers in Gersham, Oregon, Buffalo, N.Y., and New York City. More here: Quote What’s even more alarming is the violence against crisis pregnancy centers. These brave organizations, nearly all of which are non-profit, save the lives of babies and help young mothers and fathers raise the babies that they’ve rescued from abortion. That’s anathema to the left because it goes against abortion, which is the sacrament of the religion of wokeness. One group with particularly nasty rhetoric is Jane’s Revenge. This group claimed responsibility for vandalism and property destruction at pregnancy centers across the U.S. — referring to the acts of vandalism as “easy and fun” — and has issued a chilling threat to pro-life organizations as we draw nearer to a decision in the Dobbs case. Referencing some sort of 30-day deadline, the threat, as Mediate reported, reads: Quote Your thirty days expired yesterday. We offered an honourable way out. You could have walked away. Now the leash is off. And we will make it as hard as possible for your campaign of oppression to continue. We have demonstrated in the past month how easy and fun it is to attack. We are versatile, we are mercurial, and we answer to no one but ourselves. We promised to take increasingly drastic measures against oppressive infrastructures. Rest assured that we will, and those measures may not come in the form of something so easily cleaned up as fire and graffiti. Jane’s Revenge also declared “open season” on “anti-choice” organizations and invited fellow travelers to join in the violence. Quote From here forward, any anti-choice group who closes their doors, and stops operating will no longer be a target. But until you do, it’s open season, and we know where your operations are. The infrastructure of the enslavers will not survive. We will never stop, back down, slow down, or retreat,” they said. “And for the allies of ours who doubt the authenticity of the communiqués and actions: there is a way you can get irrefutable proof that these actions are real. Go do one of your own. You are already one of us. Everyone with the urge to paint, to burn, to cut, to jam: now is the time. This is chilling stuff. "This is chilling stuff." Yes. Yes it is. More here: Quote When I asked how the Georgia pregnancy center is preparing for a post-Roe society, the director said that she and her team will keep doing what they’ve been doing. Pregnant women will still need help, as the COVID-19 pandemic (during which the center remained open) and the current baby formula shortage have proven. “Seventy-five percent of our clients need help with food, formula, diapers, and education resources rather than abortion,” she told me. “There’s no shame in that; half the women who work here have been in that situation.” She shared with me that, right before the baby formula shortage, the center received the largest donation of formula It had ever seen, and she related the story of the donation of a stroller with which they were able to bless a young, growing family. “Sometimes I feel like Joseph [from the book of Genesis],” she laughed. “Things show up — how will they get out? They do.” I asked her how her center is treating the threat from Jane’s Revenge, and she replied, “Very seriously.” “Their threat is not based on reason, they don’t want discussion, and they don’t believe in other views — it’s theirs or nothing,” she added. “Something like 25 other pregnancy centers have had violence against them as of yesterday [Thursday]. These people find fun and joy in doing this — it’s narcissistic, not logical.” “There have been no specific threats against us consequently we’re trying to be prepared but not paranoid,” said the Ohio pregnancy center chaplain. “We’re told through some of our national relationships that one of every six centers nationwide have had threats or vandalism.” "One of every six {crisis pregnancy} centers nationwise have had threats or vandalism." I hope that is not true. More here: Quote A RealClearInvestigation has tracked the attacks to two radical pro-abortion groups: Jane’s Revenge and Ruth Sent Us. The attacks include: The firebombing of a pro-life pregnancy center in suburban Buffalo on June 7 An arson attack including Molotov cocktails against the headquarters of the pro-life Wisconsin Family Action center in Madison on May 8 Graffiti with the threat, “If abortion isn’t safe then you aren’t either,” spray-painted on the walls of centers in Washington state Extensive graffiti spray-painted on small rural evangelical churches in the Deep South, where some of the deacons protested their congregations were apolitical The alarming trend is only going to get worse. Jane’s Revenge has publicized their idea for a “Night of Rage: An Autonomous Call to Action Against Patriarchal Supremacy” on a website called The Anarchist Library. Unfortunately, the targets of these attacks seem to think that some elected officials will, for political reasons, look the other way: Quote The pro-life groups that are targets of these attacks do not believe politicians are responsive to the threats, although they praise local law enforcement for their response. Quote “I don’t think these acts of violence are being taken seriously as elected officials aren’t publicly condemning them,” she said. “The lack of response from the Justice Department leads one to believe that they pick and choose what qualifies as domestic terrorism based on politics. Our concern is that this will embolden abortion supporters to commit more violence against those who support life.” In contrast, several anti-abortion figures told RealClearInvestigations, local police have been exemplary in their response and attitude. “The police came immediately, and the DC Metro Police have been outstanding,” said Janet Durig, executive director of the Capital Pregnancy Center, which saw its front door splashed with red paint and the threatening graffiti tag left by Jane’s Revenge vandals, “If abortion isn’t safe then you aren’t either.” Following the May 8 attack on the Wisconsin pro-life center, Jane’s Revenge published a “First Communique”: Quote We have run thin on patience and mercy for those who seek to strip us of what little autonomy we have left. As you continue to bomb clinics and assassinate doctors with impunity, so too shall we adopt increasingly extreme tactics to maintain freedom over our own bodies. We are forced to adopt the minimum military requirement for a political struggle. Again, this was only a warning. Next time the infrastructure of the enslavers will not survive. Medical imperialism will not face a passive enemy. Wisconsin is the first flashpoint, but we are all over the US, and we will issue no further warnings. If it looks like domestic terrorism, walks like domestic terrorism, talks like domestic terrorism, smells like domestic terrorism, you can’t call it “domestic terrorism,” according to the media and politicians who run the Justice Department. And here: Quote If there is violence at churches, it certainly won’t be anything new. Live Action’s Lila Rose pointed out Thursday that “Since the Dobbs v Jackson draft was leaked, pro-abortion activists have: -Vandalized 16 churches -Vandalized at least 16 pro-life pregnancy centers -Firebombed 4 pro-life pregnancy centers and offices -Attempted to assassinate a Supreme Court Justice Where’s the outrage?” Where indeed? We can only imagine what would be happening now on CNN and in The New York Times if 16 abortion clinics had been vandalized, but the guardians of acceptable opinion can’t be bothered to deplore violence in the service of their pet causes. ... Accordingly, the DHS has told churches to be ready for “extreme violence.” This is striking in itself. Considering that Biden’s handlers’ Justice Department has taken the unprecedented step of publicly dissenting from the Supreme Court’s decision, and that the Biden administration refused to condemn the illegal protests at the homes of the Justices who were seen as likely to vote to overturn Roe (and did so), it’s nothing short of astonishing that this warning was issued at all. After all, the Biden Department of Homeland Security was only recently setting up a Disinformation Governance Board to monitor and control Americans’ speech. Now it cares if Catholic churches are targeted for being pro-life? It’s intriguing that DHS apparently believes it has to keep up appearances in this regard. Is the DHS aware that the cultural momentum is swinging away from the hard Left that has dominated American society for so long? And so, the DHS warned Catholic Churches that pro-abortion terrorists, including the Antifa-linked Jane’s Revenge, are planning a “Night of Rage” for Friday night, with churches and pregnancy centers as their primary targets. Jane’s Revenge fulminated, “We have agonized over this apparent absence of indignation. Why is it that we are so afraid to unleash hell upon those who are destroying us? Fear of state repression is valid, but this goes deeper than that.” The Roman Catholic Diocese of Stockton, Calif., accordingly issued an “urgent memo” to its clergy and parishes. It explained that a DHS agent, Jesse Rangel, had informed diocesan officials that an “extremist group” had issued a “manifesto” calling for attacks on churches beginning at 8 p.m. on the night that the Dobbs decision was issued, which would of course be Friday night. According to Newsweek, “the memo does not describe the specific threats facing churches, but states that Rangel told the diocese that ‘large groups with cells nationwide have already been discovered ‘casing’ parishes, including here in California.'” Accordingly, the Stockton diocese issued a “critical notice” for clergy and parish officials to “develop a plan should you see or hear anything suspicious.” The memo told the churches, “Make sure you have ushers and or security available during your services and perhaps identify who among your volunteers and parishioners are law enforcement. Suspicious activity would include someone asking out of place questions (Largest Mass times? Doors always open? Do you have security?), looking around church property, protestors, and general disturbances.” That’s fine, but it also underscores the apparent fact that the churches are on their own. All the DHS did was issue a warning? Imagine if a militant pro-life group had announced plans to “unleash hell” on abortion centers. Do you think in that case that DHS would have limited itself to sending out a warning? The National Guard would be posted at every abortion center in the country. "-Vandalized 16 churches -Vandalized at least 16 pro-life pregnancy centers -Firebombed 4 pro-life pregnancy centers and offices -Attempted to assassinate a Supreme Court Justice Where’s the outrage?” Where, indeed. But whatever "outrage" we feel, we need to stay within the bounds of the law. We need to refrain from the violence that some in the pro-abortion movement feel is justified. More here: Quote Pro-Abortion Domestic Terrorists Firebomb Wisconsin Pro-Life Non-Profit BY ATHENA THORNE MAY 08, 2022 6:24 PM ET ... Madison police and fire departments were called to the office of Wisconsin Family Action (WFA) around 6 a.m. on Sunday after a passer-by reported smoke coming from the building. The flames were extinguished and thankfully, no one was injured. Investigators found a smashed window and at least one molotov cocktail that had failed to ignite. A fire inside the office burned books and damaged furnishings. Additionally, the building exterior was covered with spray-painted graffiti, including the anarchy symbol (an A inside a circle, also used by Antifa), the anti-police tag “1312” (which stands for ACAB — All Cops Are Bastards), and the threatening phrase, “If abortions aren’t safe then you aren’t either.” ... “We condemn violence and hatred in all forms, including the actions at Wisconsin Family Action in Madison last night,” said Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers, a Democrat, and “We reject violence against any person for disagreeing with another’s view.” But Evers also felt the need to say, “We will work against overturning Roe and attacks on reproductive rights by leading with empathy and compassion. We will defend what we believe in with our words and our voices — in the streets, in halls of government, and at the ballot box.” I'm glad Gov. Evers was willing to condemn this violence. I am hoping that people like you, Meadowchik, likewise condemn it. More here: Quote Dozens of attacks on churches, pregnancy crisis centers and pro-life groups around the nation have drawn an FBI investigation and questions from lawmakers about whether the Biden administration is doing enough to stop them. U.S. Sen. Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, sent a letter to FBI Director Chris Wray this week calling for a briefing on the issue and urging Mr. Wray to ensure these “violent attacks are recognized by the FBI and are being properly investigated for what they are — cases of abortion-related violent extremism. “There have been at least 40 violent attacks on crisis pregnancy centers, religious institutions, and other pro-life entities since the Dobbs leak and before the Court even issued its final opinion,” Sen. Grassley wrote. “This violence continues to cause injury, damage to property and interruption of constitutionally protected worship services all across the nation. In fact, it substantially accelerated last weekend, after the opinion was issued. “Current threats from abortion extremists are impending, serious, and dangerous,” he added. "{A}t least 40 violent attacks on crisis pregnancy centers, religious institutions, and other pro-life entities since the Dobbs leak." More here: Quote The FBI National Press Office shared the following statement with various news agencies on Friday, June 17: “The FBI is investigating a series of attacks and threats targeting pregnancy resource centers and faith-based organizations across the country. The FBI takes all threats seriously and we continue to work closely with our law enforcement partners and will remain vigilant to protect our communities. We would like to remind members of the public that if they observe anything suspicious or have information about potential threats to report it to law enforcement immediately, call their local FBI field office, or submit a tip to tips.fbi.gov.” The FBI is already looking into firebombings at the offices of Wisconsin Family Action, an ally of Focus on the Family, as well as at the First Image Pregnancy Resource Center in Gresham, Oregon. The agency is also investigating vandalism that occurred at two churches in Colorado. ... And here: Quote Besides the fire-bombing of the offices of Wisconsin Family Action, which The Daily Citizen has previously reported on, the sudden spate of mayhem includes: The Salem, Oregon, offices of Oregon Right to Life were attacked on May 8 using incendiary devices, one of which caught the building on fire. Thanks to the quick response of fire fighters, damage was kept to a minimum. Holy Rosary Church in Houston, Texas, was spray-painted with the words “Pro-choice is Pro-life!” Bartholomew the Apostle Catholic Church in Katy, Texas reported their tabernacle was stolen on May 8. It was later found at a Burger King. First Care Women’s Health, a pro-life pregnancy center in Manassas, Virginia, was vandalized with spray-painted messages like “Abortion is a Right.” Loreto House, a pregnancy resource center in Denton, Texas, was vandalized. Its roadside sign and front door were spray-painted with the words, “Not a clinic,” apparently referring to the fact that no abortions were performed there. The perpetrator(s) also added “Forced Birth is Murder.” The Alexandria, Virginia office of Concerned Women for America was vandalized by an unknown male who urinated on the doors and windows of the facility and offered his middle finger to the building’s security cameras. On May 7, St. John XXIII Catholic Parish in Fort Collins, Colorado suffered broken windows and the phrase “My Body My Choice” painted on the church doors. Joseph’s Church in Armada, Michigan, was also vandalized with spray paint on May 5. Sacred Heart of Mary Church in Boulder, Colorado, which has been targeted before for its pro-life views and programs, was vandalized on May 5 with spray painted phrases such as “My Body My Choice,” as well as broken windows and defaced statues. And here: Quote Pregnancy centers served close to 2 million people with free services and material assistance valuing over $266 million according to data from 2019. And on average, 99% of clients reported having had a positive experience at their local center. Despite this marked benefit to women, there has been an alarming increase in attacks against life-affirming pregnancy help organizations since the Supreme Court leak occurred on May 2 that indicated a potential overturn of the Roe v. Wade decision. This anger is completely misguided as these pro-choice vigilantes claim to be standing up for women while simultaneously obstructing women from receiving the pregnancy care they seek. From harassing calls to death threats, nationwide we at Heartbeat International have heard numerous accounts from more than two dozen organizations in 20 states. Some of these attacks are published, some are not out of fear of retribution. According to a recent survey, since the leak one in six organizations reported that they have experienced targeted harassment ranging from fake online reviews to vandalism, including the destruction of property. Written in red spray paint in more than one location is the saying, "if abortion isn’t safe neither are you." This makes no sense as a response to an unconfirmed decision by the Supreme Court of the land. Much less so for life-affirming pregnancy centers that have been helping women for free throughout the time of Roe and before. These organizations are only targeted because they do not refer for nor provide abortions, a fact they state upfront on their websites. If something isn’t done now, I fear the violence and rage will only intensify during this time of turmoil, frustration and anger on both sides of the issue. Yet the ones being hurt most are the ones needing the most help—pregnant mothers. Every woman deserves compassionate care and support when facing an unexpected pregnancy. Channeling anger toward pregnancy help takes essential care away from these women. The time the centers must close in order to clean up paint or replace broken windows is time now that they aren’t able to serve women and families. The women these vandals claim to care about are now being denied care due to what amounts to a dangerous temper tantrum. All in the name of abortion, these people dismiss the needs of women. The woman who thinks she is pregnant and needs a free pregnancy test to confirm now must wait another day. The woman who had scheduled an ultrasound to confirm how far along she is in her pregnancy has to reschedule for another day. The woman who was coming to pick up the diapers she earned by attending parenting classes to help her be a better mother has to come back another day. Don’t these women matter? "Every woman deserves compassionate care and support when facing an unexpected pregnancy. Channeling anger toward pregnancy help takes essential care away from these women." Well said. And here: Quote Following Politico’s report of a leaked draft opinion in the U.S. Supreme Court case of Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization indicating that a majority of justices seem inclined to overturn the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion nationwide, multiple churches and pro-life advocacy organizations have been burned, looted and vandalized by pro-abortion extremists. ... The most recent acts of vandalism are listed first. The list will be updated as more vandalism takes place. Jackson Right to Life: Jackson, Michigan Rep. Tim Walberg, R-Mich., announced on Facebook on June 22 that “Last night our office and Jackson Right to Life were attacked by a radical pro-abortion group.” He noted that “our windows were broken, our logo was smashed right on the front door, and this radical group spray-painted their name over the Jackson Right to Life sign.” ... Two pro-life pregnancy centers in Michigan Jane’s Revenge took credit for the vandalism of two Detroit-area pro-life pregnancy centers in an email obtained by the anarchist website Abolition Media: “On the night of 6/19 a gang of criminal queers smashed the windows of two fake abortion clinics in the greater Detroit area leaving the messages ‘if abortion isn’t safe, neither are you’ and ‘fake clinic.’ Jane will have her revenge.” ... Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life: Minneapolis, Minnesota The pro-life group Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life announced on its Twitter account June 15 that its office in Minneapolis had been vandalized for the second time in recent weeks. Pictures of the vandalism reveal the phrase “Abortion is Liberation” spray-painted across the front door and the front window of the facility broken. A third picture showed shards of glass scattered across a table inside the building. ... Gresham Pregnancy Resource Center: Gresham, Oregon Luke Cirillo, CEO of the nonprofit organization First Image, announced on the company’s Facebook page June 10 that the Gresham Pregnancy Resource Center was set on fire that morning at around 3 a.m. ... Options360: Vancouver, Washington Alissa Azar, who describes herself as a Syrian journalist who covers “right wing violence & activity in the [Pacific Northwest],” posted pictures of vandalism at a pro-life pregnancy center in Vancouver, Washington on Twitter on June 9. “Options360, an evangelical pregnancy crisis center in Vancouver, WA, was hit with some red paint last night and had ‘Jane’s Revenge’ written on the front of the building,” she reported. ... CompassCare: Buffalo, New York CompassCare, a group of pro-life pregnancy centers committed to “serving women in Buffalo and across NY State” and “erasing the need for abortion,” announced on June 7 that its Buffalo office was “firebombed by abortion terrorists.” The pro-life organization posted a statement on its website explaining that “Early this morning police and firefighters responded to smoke at CompassCare’s Buffalo office.” ... Mountain Area Pregnancy Services: Asheville, North Carolina Mountain Area Pregnancy Services, a pro-life pregnancy center in Asheville, North Carolina, announced on Facebook on June 7 that “Our building was vandalized last night.” Pictures of the vandalism accompanying the post revealed the phrase “If abortions aren’t safe, neither are you” spray-painted on the sidewalk in front of the facility, along with a symbol for the anarchist movement. ... Capitol Hill Crisis Pregnancy Center: Washington, D.C. Janet Durig, the executive director of The Capitol Hill Crisis Pregnancy Center in Washington, D.C., told The Daily Signal that her business was vandalized either late June 2 or early morning June 3. Images of the vandalism reveal red paint dumped on the front door and doormat, egged windows and a message reading “Jane Says Revenge” spray-painted on the exterior walls of the facility. ... Dove Medical Pregnancy Center: Eugene, Oregon Journalist Andy Ngo posted pictures of vandalism at Dove Medical Pregnancy Center in Eugene, Oregon to his Twitter account May 27. As Ngo explained, “An individual or group associating itself with far-left extremist #abortion group Jane’s Revenge attacked the Dove Medical pregnancy center sometime on May 27. They drew a modified communist symbol & dumped red paint at the building.” ... Next Step Pregnancy Center: Lynnwood, Washington Security video footage captured outside Next Step Pregnancy Services in Lynnwood, Washington reveals a vandal spray-painting pro-abortion messages on the exterior of the building in the early morning hours of May 25. Images shared by Seattle radio host Jason Rantz showed he words “If abortion isn’t safe” were painted on the front door of the pro-life pregnancy center while the rest of the phrase, “Then you aren’t either!” spray-painted on the ground in front of the entrance. ... Mt. Avery M.B. Church: Lowndes County, Mississippi Stephen Pimpo of WCBI News, a CBS affiliate based in northern Mississippi, reported on May 24 that “The Lowndes County Sheriff’s Dept. is investigating the vandalism of Mt. Avery M.B. Church,” which “was discovered Monday morning.” Pictures of the pro-abortion vandalism revealed a message reading “girls just want to have fundamental rights” spray-painted on the doors of the church, a play on the Cyndi Lauper song “Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.” ... Four churches: Olympia, Washington The group of pro-abortion activists calling themselves Jane’s Revenge took credit for the vandalism of four Washington state churches over the weekend of May 21-22. A blog posted on the anarchist website Abolition Media May 23 contained the contents of an email sent by the Bo Brown Cell of the pro-abortion organization. “Last night we vandalized four anti-abortion churches in Olympia,” the email read. “A Mormon church, Calvary church, Harbor Church, and St. Michael’s Catholic church all received facelifts in the early hours of Sunday morning. We dumped red paint over the entryways and left messages of ‘If abortions aren’t safe then neither are you,’ ‘Abort the church,’ and ‘God loves abortion.’” ... BirthRight: Frederick, Maryland A Twitter user who identifies himself as Wayward Streamer, a self-described “photo/ video reporter from the Frontline,” shared pictures of vandalism at BirthRight, a crisis pregnancy center in Frederick, Maryland, on his Twitter account on May 8. The words “Defend Roe” were spray-painted between the facility’s two front windows. The profane “F*** fake clinic” was written next to the front door, reflecting the hostility pro-abortion activists have toward pro-life pregnancy clinics. Alpha Pregnancy Center: Reisterstown, Maryland Wayward Streamer shared pictures of Alpha Pregnancy Center in Reisterstown, Maryland May 7. Graffiti painted in black next to the front entrance read “You’re anti-choice,” with the phrase “not pro-life” painted in red directly underneath it. To the left of the entrance, additional graffiti proclaimed “If abortions aren’t safe neither are you.” ... Oregon Right to Life: Salem, Oregon A statement posted by the pro-life organization Oregon Right to Life on May 9 said, “In the late evening on Sunday, May 8, the offices of Oregon Right to Life were attacked.” The group noted that “An individual used incendiary devices, one of which exploded and caught the building on fire.” “The office was vacant at the time and no one was harmed. Fire and police departments responded quickly, minimizing damage to the building.” Holy Rosary Church: Houston, Texas In a Facebook post on May 9, Friar Mariano Veliz shared a picture of the words “Pro-choice is pro-life!” spray-painted on the doors of Holy Rosary Church in Houston, Texas, accompanied by the caption: “This is what the angry, hateful anti-Catholic pro-choice activists did to our church last night.” Veliz, who serves as a parochial vicar at the church, added that “these people painted the same message on our side doors as well.” ... St. Bartholomew the Apostle Catholic Church: Katy, Texas Father Christopher Plant of St. Bartholomew the Apostle Catholic Church in Katy, Texas, took to Twitter May 9 to announce that “Our tabernacle was stolen last night.” Adrian Fonseca, a producer for a Catholic radio network, provided an update on Twitter May 11: “They found the tabernacle at a Burger King. Appears to be cracked open. Stole Our Lord and left behind the Gold. Clearly was not stolen for the money, but for something far more precious.” ... First Care Women’s Health: Manassas, Virginia ABC News affiliate WUSA in Washington, D.C., aired a report on vandalism that took place at First Care Women’s Health, a pro-life pregnancy center in Manassas, Virginia. Becky Sheetz, the CEO of First Care’s parent company Life First, explained that “in one section, it said liars, another one said fake clinic and the other one said ‘abortion is a right.’” A tweet from the Rev. Dean Nelson of the pro-life group Human Coalition indicates that the vandalism took place on May 8. ... Wisconsin Family Action: Madison, Wisconsin An Incident Report compiled by the police department in Madison, Wisconsin, stated that “Flames were seen coming from” the headquarters of the pro-life organization Wisconsin Family Action “shortly after 6 a.m.” on May 8. According to the report, “A Molotov cocktail, which did not ignite, was thrown inside the building. It also appears a separate fire was started in response. Graffiti was also found at the scene. No injuries have been reported.” ... Loreto House: Denton, Texas Loreto House, a pro-life pregnancy center in Denton, Texas, has also experienced pro-abortion vandalism in recent days. A tweet posted by North Texas Catholic on May 8 reported that the facility was “vandalized this weekend.” The organization helps women, men and children by providing “material goods, parent education, and emotional and spiritual support” during a woman’s pregnancy and up to the child’s third birthday. ... Concerned Women for America: Alexandria, Virginia Security camera footage obtained by Fox News reveals an unidentified male vandalizing the headquarters of the pro-life organization Concerned Women for America in Alexandria, Virginia earlier this month. The video footage shows the perpetrator repeatedly flipping off the security camera and urinating on the doors and windows of the facility in addition to ripping the intercom system and security camera from the wall. ... St. John XXIII Catholic Parish: Fort Collins, Colorado Fort Collins Police Services in Fort Collins, Colorado, announced on Facebook that “around 1:15 a.m. on May 7, an unknown person spray painted the front doors of [St. John XXIII Catholic Parish] and broke exterior glass panels.” A parishioner of the church posted a picture of the vandalism on Twitter later that day. The phrase “My Body My Choice” was painted on the church doors. ... Southeast Portland Pregnancy Resource Center: Portland, Oregon The group First Image, which runs several pro-life pregnancy centers, announced on Facebook May 5 that “a group of people vandalized our Southeast Portland Pregnancy Resource Center last night.” First Image elaborated on the damage sustained at the Portland, Oregon facility, noting that “All the windows on one side of the center were broken, and there was a hateful, anti-PRC message spray-painted on the wall.” ... Sacred Heart of Mary Church: Boulder, Colorado The Sacred Heart of Mary Church in Boulder, Colorado, was vandalized May 3, one day after the publication of the Dobbs draft. A news report from local news outlet Denver 7 showed video footage of the vandalism, which included the spray-painted phrases “My Body My Choice” on the doors of the church and “Abortion Saves Lives” on its exterior walls. The church also had several windows broken and statues of the saints featured on the exterior of the property defaced. Boy, this sure seems like a lot of violence that is not getting much attention from the media. Meadowchik, I am curious as to your perspective on the foregoing incidents. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 8, 2022 by smac97 2
rodheadlee Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 7 hours ago, Meadowchik said: No, but good on her for not being afraid of revealing her anger especially if it's reasoned and righteous. Lots of righteous people are correct to be angry now, especially if that anger flows out of empathy for the oppressed (women) and for the unborn...the "pro-life" platform makes very little noise about the well-being of the unborn outside of its political agenda to ban abortion. It cannot be righteous to rip your child out of its warm safe womb and kill it. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Sen. Warren does not seem to be in favor of "choice" unless it is to abort. This is perhaps the money quote* from Smac’s lengthy but superb post. Not only does Warren seem determined to ruin these pregnancy crisis centers but apparently would infringe upon freedom of speech as well — by falsely labeling something as “disinformation” and thereby urging the forced abridgment of freedom of speech. Warren and other politicians of her ilk worry me a great deal. *”Money quote,” in the sense I use it here, is a relatively new idiom that some might not be acquainted with. I will explain. It is the brief, pithy extraction that best conveys the essence of the whole. Edited July 8, 2022 by Scott Lloyd
Meadowchik Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: It cannot be righteous to rip your child out of its warm safe womb and kill it. What's the righteous way to try to help that unborn person? Even if the thing you're trying to stop is wicked, the way you treat others in their choices can compound or mitigate the evil. Good intentions aren't enough, right? Edited July 8, 2022 by Meadowchik
Scott Lloyd Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: What's the righteous way to try to help that unborn person? I’d say the pregnancy crisis centers that Warren is waging war on (no pun intended) are already doing it. Edited July 8, 2022 by Scott Lloyd 3
smac97 Posted July 8, 2022 Author Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: This is perhaps the money quote* from Smac’s lengthy but superb post. Not only does Warren seem determined to ruin these pregnancy crisis centers but apparently would infringe upon freedom of speech as well — by falsely labeling something as “disinformation” and thereby urging the forced abridgment of freedom of speech. Warren and other politicians of her ilk worry me a great deal. Yep. A politician publicly advocating for the use of governmental power to squelch and punish speech with which she disagrees seems, well, pretty problematic. People of her ilk are so deeply in the thrall of their ideological worldview that they do not even recognize how palpably absurd and oppressive their antics are. I think she genuinely does not comprehend or care about the Free Speech implications of what she is advancing here. Thanks, -Smac Edited July 8, 2022 by smac97 2
Meadowchik Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 12 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’d say the pregnancy crisis centers that Warren is waging war on (no pun intended) are already doing it. Doing what exactly and how?
Scott Lloyd Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Doing what exactly and how? Doing what? What you said, “providing help to unborn persons in a righteous way.” How? By providing solutions to unwanted pregnancy other than killing the child. See prior post from Smac. Edited July 8, 2022 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 27 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yep. A politician publicly advocating for the use of governmental power to squelch and punish speech with which she disagrees seems, well, pretty problematic. YMMV. People of her ilk are so deeply in the thrall of their ideological worldview that they do not even recognize how palpably absurd and oppressive their antics are. I think she genuinely does not comprehend or care about the Free Speech implications of what she is advancing here. Thanks, -Smac I wish I could give her the benefit of the doubt and say she doesn’t comprehend, but she seems brighter than that. Alas, I see a greater likelihood that she comprehends but doesn’t care. 1
smac97 Posted July 8, 2022 Author Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Quote Quote What's the righteous way to try to help that unborn person? I’d say the pregnancy crisis centers that Warren is waging war on (no pun intended) are already doing it. Doing what exactly and how? Well, the first and foremost way to "help that unborn person" is to refrain from electively killing him. Next up, which is just as important, is to provide resources to expectant mothers to facilitate the alternative to elective abortion. I provided a link to an article that provided some examples of how this can happen (and, in fact, has been happening for years) : Quote According to the Charlotte Lozier Institute, a pro-life think tank, “In 2021, there are approximately 3,000 pregnancy center locations in the U.S. (counting medical mobile units as separate locations).” Contrast that to the 808 abortuaries nationwide. Here are some fast facts on crisis pregnancy centers in 2019: 8 in 10 locations (or 2,132) offer Free Ultrasounds 486,213 Free Ultrasounds Performed 731,884 Free Pregnancy Tests 967,251 Free Consultations with New Clients 810 Locations offer STD Testing 563 Locations offer STD treatment onsite 291,230 Clients Attended Parenting and Prenatal Education Classes 21,698 Clients Attended After-Abortion Support and Recovery Sessions 305 Locations offer Abortion Pill Reversal 2,525 Locations offer Material Assistance such as baby items (including diapers, baby clothing outfits, new car seats and strollers) 120 Medical Mobile Units with Ultrasound (at least) rolling on the road to bring services to women out in the community 14,977 Paid Staff (25 percent of whom are licensed medical professionals) 53,855 Volunteers (12 percent of whom are licensed medical professionals) 10,215 licensed medical professionals involved as pregnancy center workers (paid staff and volunteers combined) The data gives lie to the claim that conservatives don’t care about women with unplanned pregnancies. These centers are providing huge amounts of resources to expectant mothers. It is these centers which Sen. Warren - whom you describe as having a "reasoned and righteous" anger - is trying to eliminate. Given what Sen. Warren is doing here, can you see how your admiration for her is kind of hard to square with your concern about the welfare of mothers and the unborn? Would you support federal funding for crisis pregnancy centers? If not, why not? Thanks, -Smac Edited July 8, 2022 by smac97 3
Calm Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 (edited) One big concern with crisis pregnancy centers is they are not regulated, while taking on the appearance of a medical clinic. Surveys have been done of centers and assuming the surveys are accurate, at least some of the centers are giving out inaccurate information about contraceptives and safe sex, pushing the abstinence only ideal. Quote Perhaps most worrisome, regardless of whether a particular location is licensed, CPCs engage in counseling that is misleading or false [8]. Despite claims to the contrary, these centers do not meet the standard of patient-centered, quality medical care [18]. The counseling provided on abortion and contraception by CPCs falls outside accepted medical standards and guidelines for providing evidence-based information and treatment options. For example, CPCs often suggest a link between abortion and subsequent serious mental health problems [3], while multiple studies have invalidated this assertion [19-21]. Similarly, centers cite debunked literature showing an association between abortion and breast cancer [22]. Although abortion has been shown to be safer than childbirth [23], it is portrayed as a dangerous or even deadly procedure [7]. Contrary to the claim that many CPCs make that they provide comprehensive services and offer women “all options,” most of these centers do not provide comprehensive women’s reproductive health care, abortion care, or referrals for abortion [1, 3]. For example, CPCs tend to avoid discussion of contraception and dismiss the role of condoms in preventing sexually transmitted infections [24]. Documentation available, to see the details you need to pay though. Quote Thirty-two crisis pregnancy centers were contacted. Nineteen of these were visited. Fourteen centers (44%) offered that they “provide counseling on abortion and its risks.” Inaccurate information provided included a link between abortion and breast cancer (16%), infertility (26%) and mental health problems (26%). Of the 36 Web sites identified, 31 (86%) provided false or misleading information, including 26 sites (72%) linking abortion to “post-abortion stress.” https://www.contraceptionjournal.org/article/S0010-7824(12)00415-5/fulltext Quote Amy requested a medical abortion. Instead, she received pamphlets full of graphic abortion images. A staff member immediately performed a sonogram on Amy and forced her to listen to the fetal heartbeat. Although Amy was less than one month into her pregnancy, the CPC's staff member lied to her, informing her that she was three and a half months pregnant. https://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/cardw19&div=37&id=&page= https://www.jpagonline.org/article/S1083-3188(15)00215-6/fulltext As long as pregnancy centers are not required to be licensed, issues of professionalism, confidentiality, actual accurate information and proper medical care cannot be guaranteed. High numbers of potentially low quality providers is not impressive. It is also likely much cheaper to staff with non professionals, so it is not surprising to me that the numbers are higher than the required to be licensed and staffed by licensed medical professional abortion clinics…though I would much rather see high numbers of licensed full service pregnancy centers (wouldn’t mind them providing plentiful information about help for continuing pregnancies and help with babies and young children, focus on providing material help for the children and mother as long as they also provided excellent info on contraception and safe sex and minimal abortion references at least when asked). Handing out false information with ultrasounds, not having professionals perform the ultrasounds…you can have thousands of ultrasounds available in those cases and still provide very poor care. 25% licensed medical professionals for paid staff if the any of other 74% are performing medical work and giving medical advice is not encouraging to me. 12% licensed medical professionals for volunteer staff if any of the other 88% are performing medical work and giving medical advice is very disturbing. I think providing maternal supplies, diapers, etc. is wonderful, I applaud the centers for doing that charitable work. I don’t think the centers should be eliminated, but they should be fully licensed if providing medical advice or services or they should stick to the charitable support only, no medical advice or service work beyond free non prescribed contraception and over the counter prenatal vitamins, etc. Edited July 8, 2022 by Calm 2
mtomm Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 On 7/6/2022 at 4:32 PM, Kenngo1969 said: OK. To each, his or her own, I suppose. P.S.: To me, your observation seemed remarkably personal if it is based primarily on how someone is perceived to behave on the bench. I'll never have tried enough cases to know (yes, that's a giant understatement), and since I'll never have appeared before the Supreme Court at all, I have a sample size of exactly zero to base such an opinion on, myself, but it seems to me that one ought to be quite wary of presuming to know what a judge or a justice is thinking based on his or her behavior or demeanor on the bench. But, again, to each, his or her own, I suppose. I have no idea what he was thinking and that wasn't important. It was his actions that has colored my opinion of him. So yes, continue to tell me I can't have that opinion because obviously I don't know what I saw with my own eyes and therefore cannot form my own opinions and if I did they certainly can't be right because you've not had the same experience I've had. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 31 minutes ago, mtomm said: I have no idea what he was thinking and that wasn't important. It was his actions that has colored my opinion of him. So yes, continue to tell me I can't have that opinion because obviously I don't know what I saw with my own eyes and therefore cannot form my own opinions and if I did they certainly can't be right because you've not had the same experience I've had. I've never said you cannot have an opinion. You don't need my permission, or that of anyone else, to have an opinion, especially not as this is a discussion board. I do think that you ought to be prepared for people to disagree with you (or is that not allowed? ), but, whatever.
Ryan Dahle Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 Here is an interesting thought experiment. Imagine that there is a group out there that is strongly advocating for the legality of parents terminating the lives of newborns and infants. Rather than having parents carry out the grisly deed on their own, centers are available where a medical professional can safely dispose of the child, with minimal pain and suffering involved. The group's rationale is that since an infant is hardly the same as a functioning adult, the infant's life simply shouldn't be valued in the same way. After all, most infants probably aren't even as intelligent as many animals that humans regularly slaughter and use for food. For this reason, the group strongly supports the legality of parents electively killing their own children up until the time when a child begins to show signs of intelligence that seem superior to most other creatures in the animal kingdom (which, as one might expect, is undoubtedly a debatable threshold). Not only does the group feel that infanticide should be legal, but they conceive of it as a fundamental human right. Taking care of children can be very difficult. Mothers especially are often disproportionately and unfairly burdened by the responsibility of an infant's care. Thus, the child's very existence is seen as a potential threat to the wellbeing of its parents. The group further argues that since the mother and father essentially created the child's life, they should have the legal right to remove that life. The state shouldn't be allowed to step in and tell the parent what to do with their own children. I'm guessing that many aligned with the pro-choice movement today would strongly disagree with this fictional group's ideology. Yet I would be curious as to what rationale a pro-choice advocate might use to push back against this more extreme version of pro-choice, which couldn't in turn be reasonably leveraged against their own ideology. 1
Danzo Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I could say the same about Church members I know who voted for Trump. Added later: I don’t excuse immorality on anyone’s part. But it makes a difference to me whether the behavior is alleged to have transpired while the person was in office, as it did with Clinton. I’m not aware of such taking place with Trump post-2016. Ergo, I voted against him the first time but not the second. You may not be excusing immorality on anyone's part, but I really did see anyone encouraging him to repent either. It wasn't "He's the best we got but hopefully we can stand up to his worst tendencies and look for someone better next time" It seemed to be "We must defend him at all costs, loyalty first, who cares about principles" Its human nature to try to defend your team and criticize the other team, but the other team isn't listening to what you say anyway. It takes true courage to criticize your own team.
Danzo Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 52 minutes ago, mtomm said: I have no idea what he was thinking and that wasn't important. It was his actions that has colored my opinion of him. So yes, continue to tell me I can't have that opinion because obviously I don't know what I saw with my own eyes and therefore cannot form my own opinions and if I did they certainly can't be right because you've not had the same experience I've had. You were a firsthand witness? did you use to work with him or was he just an acquaintance. 1
Tacenda Posted July 8, 2022 Posted July 8, 2022 12 minutes ago, Danzo said: You may not be excusing immorality on anyone's part, but I really did see anyone encouraging him to repent either. It wasn't "He's the best we got but hopefully we can stand up to his worst tendencies and look for someone better next time" It seemed to be "We must defend him at all costs, loyalty first, who cares about principles" Its human nature to try to defend your team and criticize the other team, but the other team isn't listening to what you say anyway. It takes true courage to criticize your own team. Don't want to get political but you just described Mitt Romney, IMO.
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