Ben Spackman’s thoughts on Sunday School

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Fether said:

He talks as if the entirety of our scriptural knowledge must come from Sunday school. What we learn in Sunday school should only be a tiny fraction of what our scriptural knowledge comes from.

If we lack scriptural understanding, it is our own faults, not Sunday school’s. He may not read judges for four more years, but others will read it. The loss of faith he is talking about is self induced.

You know what you can get in Sunday school that you can’t in scripture? Individual’s opinions and personal experience. Sunday school seems like the perfect place for those types of conversations.

He's a bible scholar by profession (and definitely not only studying this every four years), and that's probably partly where his critique comes from.  This kind of stuff is important to him and, for good or bad, he wants it to be important to everyone.   He knows all the awesome stuff that is in the OT that is useful for people to understand, and wants that for everyone.  

He has written a lot of papers and published a lot of books and also taught at BYU for a while (and I think he has a podcast but I might be confusing him with someone else) on these topics.  I think he greatly hopes that people are not only getting their scriptural knowledge from Sunday School.  But he probably recognizes that a lot of people do and is hoping that SS can be more scripture-focused for those people.

And I think we've probably all been in a SS GD class that fell way below the mark and can at least understand that level of annoyance, even if we normally have GD classes that are amazingly fulfilling with lots of scripture study going on.

[Fether]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

think we've probably all been in a SS GD class that fell way below the mark and can at least understand that level of annoyance, even if we normally have GD classes that are amazingly fulfilling with lots of scripture study going on.

I would say most of the classes fall below the mark.

I would say the main culprit is the fact that we are all different places in life and to teach a class to 30 adults, we tend to cater our lessons to the weakest in the room. We are so worried about offending the single women that we ask the sacrament speakers to not talk about mothers on Mother’s Day (true story with my co-worker’s ward). We are so afraid to offend those that can’t have kids or find a spouse that we soften God’s original commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. We are too afraid to offend people who chose not to serve a mission that we don’t dare declare that every worthy male should serve a mission.
 

I am a huge fan of the eyebrow singe comments. When people call me out for not doing enough in my FHE or my ministering. But I recognize that there are many people in the class that are prone the shameful self talk and it would be more harmful than good… so we stick to the soft and lovey vague principle based topics that make us feel good.

That is where I struggle in my classes.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Fether

[juliann]

11 hours ago, Fether said:

He talks as if the entirety of our scriptural knowledge must come from Sunday school. What we learn in Sunday school should only be a tiny fraction of what our scriptural knowledge comes from.

If we lack scriptural understanding, it is our own faults, not Sunday school’s. He may not read judges for four more years, but others will read it. The loss of faith he is talking about is self induced.

You know what you can get in Sunday school that you can’t in scripture? Individual’s opinions and personal experience. Sunday school seems like the perfect place for those types of conversations.

The fault falls largely in the church's lap for not educating members that there is a vast world of Biblical knowledge out there and that one must leave their carefully correlated material to access it. When I started outside grad study in NT in the 90s, the standard response was that I would leave the church. It was nuts. Even if one has that realization and access, there has to be the time. Then there has to be the acceptance that there tools and standards in the study of ancient literature that must be understood. We have far too many wannabe scholars who think they can read some books and correct everyone else, particularly when it comes to the professional critics. 

The church is only recently including modern scholarship in their offerings but it is way too slow in removing all the junky stuff left over from the 20th century. There is no way for a member to know what to accept and what to throw out when church manuals are seen as scripture by many. 

[juliann]

37 minutes ago, Fether said:

I would say most of the classes fall below the mark.

I would say the main culprit is the fact that we are all different places in life and to teach a class to 30 adults, we tend to cater our lessons to the weakest in the room. We are so worried about offending the single women that we ask the sacrament speakers to not talk about mothers on Mother’s Day (true story with my co-worker’s ward). We are so afraid to offend those that can’t have kids or find a spouse that we soften God’s original commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.  
 

Wow, you seem to have a low opinion of women. That is all you see? "Offense?" What I see is damage to souls when all that is preached is an idealized lifestyle that a growing body of single people aren't a part of. Single people have just as much a role...and importance....as married people. They not only deserve to be seen as valuable as they are but the church is going to increasingly suffer if they don't stop excluding and infantilizing such a large part of their membership.

[Scott Lloyd]

I’ve not been following this thread (I haven’t even read the OP), but I did read Ben’s remarks on Facebook. My reaction at the time was to think back on the countless occasions when I have been spiritually stimulated and edified in Sunday School class, both as a learner and a teacher. I doubt my approach on those occasions would pass muster with the academic rigor of Ben Spackman or likeminded individuals (that’s not really what I expect from Sunday School). I’ve not been able to summon any shame or regret for that. 

[bsjkki]

I think classes would be improved if we had a one comment only rule. The discussions are dominated by the same people each Sunday and the teachers don’t seem to be able to control the flow. It is a few dominating personalities that I honestly get tired of hearing from. 
 

I do take to heart that my inner dialogue or what I am being taught is for me and should only be shared if prompted by the spirit to do so. I asked my husband how he did such a good job dispersing the comments. He said he refused to call on some people…kept them in check and called on others who did not raise their hand. As a teacher, I remember controlling the discussion is a very tricky skill to learn. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

He's a bible scholar by profession (and definitely not only studying this every four years), and that's probably partly where his critique comes from.  This kind of stuff is important to him and, for good or bad, he wants it to be important to everyone.   He knows all the awesome stuff that is in the OT that is useful for people to understand, and wants that for everyone.  

He has written a lot of papers and published a lot of books and also taught at BYU for a while (and I think he has a podcast but I might be confusing him with someone else) on these topics.  I think he greatly hopes that people are not only getting their scriptural knowledge from Sunday School.  But he probably recognizes that a lot of people do and is hoping that SS can be more scripture-focused for those people.

And I think we've probably all been in a SS GD class that fell way below the mark and can at least understand that level of annoyance, even if we normally have GD classes that are amazingly fulfilling with lots of scripture study going on.

He lives in a world of academia, a world I wish I could have lived in longer.  His WORK is studying and learning and teaching.

I wish I could do that, but for most of us, that is not possible- we don't get paid for learning things as he does, and teaching.

I love the guy and love his work and am jealous I did not spend more time in religious academic truths, and even what those words mean.

But I was an atheist philosopher in those days, and somehow was not interested in theology.

But it's water under the bridge.

I love his stuff though, and wish my life had gone differently but then I would not be me!!!

Thanks for your stuff Ben, but we are too busy playing around here, as ironic as that is.

Long view: give up our board addictions and do something academically important.

Yeah, sure. 

Sorry, gotta pay for that new Mercedes. 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by mfbukowski

[strappinglad]

The authors of " Come Follow Me " had the very difficult task of preparing lessons for a worldwide church. It would be similar to me having to prepare math lessons for a class composed of first graders through to 12th graders. 

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think classes would be improved if we had a one comment only rule. The discussions are dominated by the same people each Sunday and the teachers don’t seem to be able to control the flow. It is a few dominating personalities that I honestly get tired of hearing from. 

If you do this, it will be a long concert of cricket music.

And who has time to craft a substantive lesson EVERY week?

[juliann]

50 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

If you do this, it will be a long concert of cricket music.

And who has time to craft a substantive lesson EVERY week?

The wards I have been in use more than one teacher so that is a good start. But I don't think anything will change until they put priority on good teachers for adults. I usually see the really knowledgable ones used for other callings. 

This is why I think you can't merely tell people to go figure it out. We don't make it interesting enough to even want to. A lesson I streamed had a good teacher but she described Deborah as "spunky" and "sassy." There is so much to delve into when it comes to her leadership and importance but the church has always presented her as a sidekick and actively suppressed her role. Bringing out things like this in Bible stories makes people curious and leaves them wanting more. Meanwhile, with Come Follow Me we get some introductory out of context scripture followed by a lot of talking about personal happenstance that people project onto God. The question of how did God lead you merely resulted in stories of solved mishaps that are part of life. Those who didn't get a satisfactory resolution to theirs would simply not talk about them....but surely they don't attribute that to God not being in their lives. I get really tired of that prayed and found my keys kind of stuff and it is ubiquitous in Mormon culture. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

The wards I have been in use more than one teacher so that is a good start. But I don't think anything will change until they put priority on good teachers for adults. I usually see the really knowledgable ones used for other callings. 

This is why I think you can't merely tell people to go figure it out. We don't make it interesting enough to even want to. A lesson I streamed had a good teacher but she described Deborah as "spunky" and "sassy." There is so much to delve into when it comes to her leadership and importance but the church has always presented her as a sidekick and actively suppressed her role. Bringing out things like this in Bible stories makes people curious and leaves them wanting more. Meanwhile, with Come Follow Me we get some introductory out of context scripture followed by a lot of talking about personal happenstance that people project onto God. The question of how did God lead you merely resulted in stories of solved mishaps that are part of life. Those who didn't get a satisfactory resolution to theirs would simply not talk about them....but surely they don't attribute that to God not being in their lives. I get really tired of that prayed and found my keys kind of stuff and it is ubiquitous in Mormon culture. 

The teacher in my ward wasn't going to bring up Deborah at all, until a sister did (and he did a good job with the lesson, it just wasn't one of the things he focused on).  The sister brought it up about how awesome it was to hear about a woman in the scriptures, but we didn't actually talk about her other than "she led an army".  

There are so many things to cover in these lessons that I get annoyed sometimes  with the small amount of time good stuff is alloted.  It's no one's fault, but annoying still.  Maybe the church should stop trying to cover the entire OT in one year.

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, juliann said:

The wards I have been in use more than one teacher so that is a good start. But I don't think anything will change until they put priority on good teachers for adults. I usually see the really knowledgable ones used for other callings. 

This is why I think you can't merely tell people to go figure it out. We don't make it interesting enough to even want to. A lesson I streamed had a good teacher but she described Deborah as "spunky" and "sassy." There is so much to delve into when it comes to her leadership and importance but the church has always presented her as a sidekick and actively suppressed her role. Bringing out things like this in Bible stories makes people curious and leaves them wanting more. Meanwhile, with Come Follow Me we get some introductory out of context scripture followed by a lot of talking about personal happenstance that people project onto God. The question of how did God lead you merely resulted in stories of solved mishaps that are part of life. Those who didn't get a satisfactory resolution to theirs would simply not talk about them....but surely they don't attribute that to God not being in their lives. I get really tired of that prayed and found my keys kind of stuff and it is ubiquitous in Mormon culture. 

I wanted to edit to add that I just started listening to this week's Follow Him podcast with Smith and Bytheway and Bytheway said something that I think is so important to remember.  He said:

"I think there may be a tendency from those who read scripture to read about the men and say 'everyone needs to learn from this' and then we read about the women and sometimes we think 'oh women can learn from this'.   We need to be in the mindset that all men and women can learn from all men and women in the scriptures."

I think we are getting better at this in the church in some stakes, but too often we still see these stories about women being primarily used in YW and RS and not talks about as much in EQ, YM, or even sunday school.  At least not from a perspective of what everyone in the class can learn from them.

[filovirus]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The teacher in my ward wasn't going to bring up Deborah at all, until a sister did (and he did a good job with the lesson, it just wasn't one of the things he focused on).  The sister brought it up about how awesome it was to hear about a woman in the scriptures, but we didn't actually talk about her other than "she led an army".  

There are so many things to cover in these lessons that I get annoyed sometimes  with the small amount of time good stuff is alloted.  It's no one's fault, but annoying still.  Maybe the church should stop trying to cover the entire OT in one year.

I skipped over Deborah yesterday. There were audible gasps when I said I was moving on to Gideon. So we went back and only spent 5 minutes discussing her as a prophetess. I will say it again; those that are not studying at home are missing out. The amount of time we are given to teach a lesson from the OT will not cover what we are expected to learn.

BUT, I have interacted with many Christ-like individuals who hardly know anything about the scriptures past a cursory knowledge. And they will be inheritors of Christ’s Kingdom just like the Bible scholars. 

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, filovirus said:

I skipped over Deborah yesterday. There were audible gasps when I said I was moving on to Gideon. So we went back and only spent 5 minutes discussing her as a prophetess. I will say it again; those that are not studying at home are missing out. The amount of time we are given to teach a lesson from the OT will not cover what we are expected to learn.

BUT, I have interacted with many Christ-like individuals who hardly know anything about the scriptures past a cursory knowledge. And they will be inheritors of Christ’s Kingdom just like the Bible scholars. 

Skipping Deborah is a judgment call and I don't fault any teacher for choosing to focus on other things.  Like you said, there were a ton of good stories in that section of reading and there was no way to cover them all well.

But I also understand the "gasping" response.  There are so few women figures in the scriptures--especially positive ones--that when we have one of a woman in a leadership position it can be a real boon to so many women struggling to find their value in the kingdom of God outside of wife and mother.  Not to mention, the things that it can also teach men about women's roles in the kingdom, that they might not be picking up on anywhere else.

[JarMan]

The problem is that if we taught what was really in the Bible people would leave the church or the church would have to change its doctrine or both. So the lesson manual gives us ridiculous, meaningless drivel that is so broad-based you can’t possibly teach an enriching message by following it. It’s the same reason the church refuses to adopt or commission a modern Bible. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

The wards I have been in use more than one teacher so that is a good start. But I don't think anything will change until they put priority on good teachers for adults. I usually see the really knowledgable ones used for other callings. 

Agree, but it's Utah vs the rest of the world.

Since covid our sacrament meeting attendance averages, maybe 50 who actually attend church. It seems to be picking up, but more than one GOOD teacher?

PRIORITY on good teachers? Like you have so many you can pick and choose?

Really good ones in other callings? Yeah we have some really great Sunday school teachers in the Stake Presidency, we gotta release them!   Who needs more middle managers??

Please God give us THOSE kind of problems!!

But seriously it's bad out here!!

Edited June 6, 2022 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, JarMan said:

The problem is that if we taught what was really in the Bible people would leave the church or the church would have to change its doctrine or both. So the lesson manual gives us ridiculous, meaningless drivel that is so broad-based you can’t possibly teach an enriching message by following it. It’s the same reason the church refuses to adopt or commission a modern Bible. 

Can you provide some examples of what you mean?

I’ve been digging in deep this year to the OT, with the help of a lot of different bible scholars, and my testimony of the OT is way stronger than it’s ever been.

That the scholars don’t shy away from the difficult parts is one of the reasons my esteem of the book has grown.

[SkyRock]

We have a very learned soul as our gospel doctrine teacher, who puts in a tremendous amount of work.  Going to this class has often been enlightening. 

Our lesson yesterday had a good discussion of idolatry, apostasy, forgiveness, inspiration, and what makes a prophet.  We covered Deborah at some length. 

Gospel Doctrine class is not intended to be an in depth intense study of a book of scripture.  Instead it is intended to support the Home Centered Church Supported style of today's church and to help members have spiritual experiences.

I can get something good out of almost every talk or lesson, as long as I open myself to the Holy Spirit.   When I feel like I have gotten nothing out of a lesson or talk, it seems like I was distracted and not letting myself be engaged by it.

[Rain]

7 hours ago, filovirus said:

The lessons for Sunday school are awful. But they are short, so a teacher can really tailor the lesson into anything that the spirit directs. This gives a ton of leeway when preparing a lesson. I like this method a lot better than the handholding that lesson plans from 20 years ago use to give. But it does put a lot more pressure on the teachers to know their stuff.

But directs to who?  Because what I feel the Spirit is directing may be a whole lot different than what Bishop or Brother or Sister so and so.  Technically that is not true, but in reality people just hear different things.

The front of the handbook says:

"Teach only the doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the scriptures and the words of latter-day prophets. Pure doctrine —eternal, unchanging truth taught by God and His servants —invites the Spirit and has the power to change lives."

So can I bring sources in that show context?  Can I quote from people who are not latter-day prophets?  Can I use a source that is not produced by the church for the church?  (I worded it like I did thinking of things that come out of BYU etc.)

As someone who has always wanted to "do right" I feel like my hands are tied.  As someone who recently began to learn outside of the church as well I find myself in a quandary. 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I think classes would be improved if we had a one comment only rule. The discussions are dominated by the same people each Sunday and the teachers don’t seem to be able to control the flow. It is a few dominating personalities that I honestly get tired of hearing from. 

 

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I do take to heart that my inner dialogue or what I am being taught is for me and should only be shared if prompted by the spirit to do so. I asked my husband how he did such a good job dispersing the comments. He said he refused to call on some people…kept them in check and called on others who did not raise their hand. As a teacher, I remember controlling the discussion is a very tricky skill to learn. 

Oh how I would like to suggest that rule - though sometimes I find some people with multiple comments ok. I recently talked to the sister I minister too.  I've heard her talk along the lines already, but we have grown close over the past few years. Normally when teaching I've never had a problem being able to control the flow, but I'm really afraid I'm going to have to choose between controlling that flow and hurting her feelings/damaging our friendship when I do my first lesson.

[Rain]

9 hours ago, Fether said:

Great insight. I agree completely. Scripture alone often is not enough to help us fully understand what is being taught. My point was that those in charge of what ends up being only a weekly 40ish minute discussion on scripture are not the ones responsible, in the least bit, for peoples lack of scriptural literacy.

Or 50ish minutes if sacrament meeting ends on time.

[juliann]

3 hours ago, JarMan said:

The problem is that if we taught what was really in the Bible people would leave the church or the church would have to change its doctrine or both. So the lesson manual gives us ridiculous, meaningless drivel that is so broad-based you can’t possibly teach an enriching message by following it. It’s the same reason the church refuses to adopt or commission a modern Bible. 

Yet when I learned from scholars, and they were liberal theologians, what is in the Bible, it strengthened my belief in the church. It is very easy to place church doctrine in the context of the Bible and early Christianity. Very easy. My first reaction to discovering this in academic classes rather than the church was why in the world isn’t this in our manuals?? However, it does require that one treats the Bible as a collection of disparate texts written for different audiences at different times and in different cultures. Nothing kills discovery faster than insisting every word is Truth and that different texts/authors can be treated as one. 

[filovirus]

39 minutes ago, Rain said:

But directs to who?  Because what I feel the Spirit is directing may be a whole lot different than what Bishop or Brother or Sister so and so.  Technically that is not true, but in reality people just hear different things.

The front of the handbook says:

"Teach only the doctrine of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ as found in the scriptures and the words of latter-day prophets. Pure doctrine —eternal, unchanging truth taught by God and His servants —invites the Spirit and has the power to change lives."

So can I bring sources in that show context?  Can I quote from people who are not latter-day prophets?  Can I use a source that is not produced by the church for the church?  (I worded it like I did thinking of things that come out of BYU etc.)

As someone who has always wanted to "do right" I feel like my hands are tied.  As someone who recently began to learn outside of the church as well I find myself in a quandary. 

A couple of thoughts. The words of our current prophet(s) when speaking in an authoritative manner (usually general conference) should take precedent over all other scripture. 99.999% of the time their words align with the scriptures and/or clarify them. If you haven’t been using the BYU citation index, you should give it a look. The app works just as good as the online version.

Good scholarship is great to use to give context to the scriptures, but should not be used as authoritative readings. A great place to find them are at the religious studies center at BYU and commentaries written for general member use. A good place to have a lot of commentaries on hand is to subscribe to the Deseret Book plus plan. I believe it is $10.00 a month. I read a number of different commentaries each week but rarely quote them in lessons. But it does help me feel more confident as we read from the scriptures in class as I’m teaching.

The best thing that has helped me out is having a study Bible that I can mark, write in the margins, highlight etc. That way we can read together and I have all my notes in one place. Analog scriptures is 100% better than digital still. The church really needs to make a better way to mark the digital version (although the cross referencing that we can do is amazing).

Don't be scared to share things from other sources, just make sure it was a used to bring in the spirit during the lesson. For instance I had some information yesterday about how the worship of Baal and Asherah was very similar to the worship of Jehovah and that it’s not that far of a stretch to be worshiping Jehovah and incorporating Baal at the same time. Sometimes context is needed.

[CV75]

It seems even some very smart people do not read the instructions and so their expectations are out of context and even unrealistic.

The instructions for the Old Testament 2022 CFM (note the subtitle: “Living, Learning, and Teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ”) are found in the:

Title Page https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-old-testament-2022/title?lang=eng

Conversion Is Our Goal https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-old-testament-2022/intro?lang=eng

Using Come, Follow Me—For Individuals and Families https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-old-testament-2022/using?lang=eng

Ideas to Improve Your Personal Scripture Study https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-old-testament-2022/personal?lang=eng

Why on earth would any dedicated scholar (especially the “disciple-scholar” – see reference below) expect CFM to give room for the rigorous academic application of theory and methods from diverse disciplines (e.g., ancient history, historical criticism, philology, textual criticism, literary criticism, historical backgrounds, mythology, and comparative religion)? Is, “Oh come on, just a little bit to make it interesting!” really scholarship? Is, "Oh come on, just a little bit to push people out of their comfort zone academically?" really programmatically (or socially) appropriate?

Elder Holland spoke of the “disciple-scholar” -- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/be-faithful-disciple-scholars-even-in-difficulty-elder-holland-says-at-maxwell-institute?lang=eng

I would like to see someone pull a healthy William McClellan and come up with a version of CFM meeting their inspired academic expectations.

Edited June 6, 2022 by CV75

[Tacenda]

Is using an alternate Bible acceptable yet? Or is it straight up KJV only like it has been?