NYT Article: What people will and won't say on LGBTQ+ Issues

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Okay, maybe my clinic is just weird. Looks like the terms are more commonly psychotherapy vs. counseling.

Thank goodness, that would have been a pain trying to figure out what was meant in studies if they had moved to that differentiation as too often I am guessing my brain would stick with the old version when the new was meant. Bad enough that some see life coaches as equivalent to psychotherapist and therefore call that type of counseling “therapy” (I don’t particularly care unless talking statistics and research). Some coaches might be capable of quality counseling that might even be better than some therapists, but I have my doubts that the majority get there. 

[SwedishLDS]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Completely? When did it become so? I remember talking to someone a number of years ago about how many hoops they had to jump through to home school because the government was trying to make it practically impossible but they were still able to do so but were considering coming back to the States. I could be misremembering and it was Finland or Norway (I tend to think of Sweden first because great grandpa was from there and I therefore knew of that country way before the other two), but am wondering how recent this restriction occurred. 

Almost completely, we alongside Germany has the most restrictive policies in Europe regarding this. The law changed in June 2010, if Im looking at the right law change.

Homeschooling has no tradition in Sweden, and is almost non-existent. Social conformity is strong. The new school law explicitly states that it is not allowed except in extraordinary circumstances.

Since education in the Swedish schools must always be comprehensive and objective, and be organized in a way that everybody can participate regardless of his or her religious belief or philosophical persuasion, the legislator has drawn the conclusion that there is no need for any regulation that entitles parents to provide homeschooling for their children. But the Education Act recognizes that exceptional circumstances might occur which would be a reason to allow a child to fulfill the duty to participate in compulsory education in another way than by attendance at school.

The conditions for such an arrangement are very restrictive; it can only be permitted for one year at a time, and there must be an extraordinary reason. Parents must apply to the municipal board of education, with an opportunity to appeal to the Administrative court if approval is denied.

Families who had been home educating successfully for many years prior to 2011 were suddenly denied permission and threatened with the social authorities and fines of up to 20,000 euros per child and year. This has led to Swedish home educators fleeing Sweden to other nearby countries where home education is permitted. I know several female friends who are part of organisation pushing for more leniency on homeschooling and feel marginalized by society for choicing a more traditional path.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Completely? When did it become so? I remember talking to someone a number of years ago about how many hoops they had to jump through to home school because the government was trying to make it practically impossible but they were still able to do so but were considering coming back to the States. I could be misremembering and it was Finland or Norway (I tend to think of Sweden first because great grandpa was from there and I therefore knew of that country way before the other two), but am wondering how recent this restriction occurred. 

See this this Wikipedia entry, which contains a chart giving the legal status of home schooling in the countries of the world. For Sweden, it has this:

Illegal, as of June 2010; supposedly allowed under special circumstances such as student health reasons or family travel, but virtually never approved.

The same chart says it is legal in the other Nordic countries, including Finland. 
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_status_and_statistics#Europe

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

One of the latest battles in the culture war is over the Parental Rights In Education Act newly signed into law in Florida. 
 

The Church’s General Handbook contains this instruction regarding sex education:

Sex Education

Parents have primary responsibility for the sex education of their children. Parents should have honest, clear, and ongoing conversations with their children about healthy, righteous sexuality. These conversations should:
    Be appropriate to the age and maturity of the child.

    Help children prepare for happiness in marriage and follow the law of chastity (see 2.1.2).

    Address the dangers of pornography, the need to avoid it, and how to respond when they encounter it.

For more information, see “Sex Education and Behavior” (Gospel Topics, topics.ChurchofJesusChrist.org).
As part of their responsibility to teach their children, parents should be aware of and appropriately seek to influence the sex education taught at school. Parents teach correct principles and support school instruction that is consistent with the gospel.

I have emphasized the last paragraph with boldface type to draw attention to it, because it occurs to me that it is consistent with the instruction given here for Latter-day Saint parents to support such measures as the new law in Florida. 
 

The law bans teachers from giving classroom instruction on "sexual orientation" or "gender identity" in kindergarten through third grade.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

Almost completely, we alongside Germany has the most restrictive policies in Europe regarding this. 

Enforcement of the home schooling ban seems especially draconian in Germany, where, in 2013, a family had their children taken from them because the parents refused to obey the ban: 

https://amp.dw.com/en/european-court-rules-against-german-homeschooling-family/a-47021333

“August 29, 2013, as 40 officials stood before our door, was the most horrible day for us," Dirk Wunderlich told DW. He said the authorities were contacted by neighbors who claimed he had said he would rather kill his children than send them to school.

"What nonsense," said Wunderlich, calling the accusations "invented." Their children were returned to them after three weeks.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

who claimed he had said he would rather kill his children than send them to school

That sounds more about the threat of killing than home schooling.  If a neighbor reported he would rather kill them than send them to church, it would problematic that he would even think of killing as an option, not that he sees church as an issue.  I can see it as appropriate to remove children from his care to investigate if there is any reason to find the neighbor credible.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Calm

[JustAnAustralian]

3 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

it can only be permitted for one year at a time,

Ahhh so that's how Greta got away with it.

[Analytics]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I dislike the Chesterton’s fence metaphor because 9 times out of 10 the reason the fence is there is it unfairly benefited people behind the law...

I totally agree. It reminds me of an old cartoon that showed Moses coming down from Sinai with three tablets containing the 15 commandments, the third of which "accidently" broke. The eleventh commandment was, as I recall, "Thou shalt honor thy children," and was followed with four other commandments that were equally more beneficial to the powerless than to the powerful.

The whole idea of "parental rights" bugs me. I care more about children's rights. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Analytics

[cinepro]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Viewpoint from someone on the front lines dealing with these issues everyday. The Facebook group I administer and mentor for LDS families with queer children is currently getting 5 to 10 requests a day from parents wishing to join.  We are fast approaching 3,000 members in our group.  I and my wife are members of other groups for parents of queer kids that include people of all religions or no religions.   The numbers in these groups are in the 10's of thousands.   5 years ago 90% of the parents joining were dealing with gay kids.  Today its about 40% transgender, 40% gay and 20% other on the queer spectrum.  This article describes nothing that is actually going on.  If the author or any of you would take the time to visit with 20 parents of transgender children and visit with the children themselves, you would discover a very different picture.  You would discover kids with serious depression, suicidal thoughts and young lives coming apart until they come out as transgender.  Once they do, their mental health almost always begins to improve.   The first step these youth and their parents always take is counseling.  Transition usually starts with clothes, hair, makeup and binders.  After a period of counseling if the child is at the right age and wants to, they can start puberty blockers.  Almost all the transgender kids I know today choose the blockers.  The blockers aren't permanent and can be stopped at any time.  Almost universally parents report dramatic improvements in mental health and a return of happiness to their child's life.  Like any medication, there are those who don't respond well to puberty blockers and go off them.  That happens very rarely.  A very common occurrence is for a child to come out gay or bisexual to test the family waters.  If parents are accepting and things progress well, the child will then come out as transgender.  The kids aren't stupid and they know that many parents go into deep shock over transgender versus gay or bisexual.

Many parents currently have concerns about puberty blockers and detransitioning because of articles like this.  These parents are thoroughly investigating both issues and almost without fail come back with only positive reports.  Although there are articles arguing that many transgender people are regretting their decision, that is not the lived experience in the groups I am in.  Many parents in these groups have transgender children that transitioned 5 or more years ago and none have reported a child regretting their transition.  I personally know probably 100 transgender adults.  None of them have ever expressed any regrets.  The only regret they express is that they had to wait until adulthood to start transitioning.  We have had absolutely no cases of children coming out as queer then later saying they are straight or cisgender.  Many bisexual children have married someone of the opposite sex but they still openly call themselves bisexual.  

Now this is only my experience based on 10 years and thousands of personal stories but it resembles nothing like the article or comments offered above.  Kids will keep coming out as queer including transgender and their very lives will depend on acceptance and the ability to live life as they choose.  Literally, children are taking their lives because of the attitudes expressed in this article, by politicians and church leaders of religions.

Thanks for your perspective.  It's certainly a good data point on the experiment society is currently running, and when we look back on this period of time, it will offer an important view of how many people approached the issue.

One thing that seems odd to me are the stories of parents being asked/told "Would you rather have a live (transitioned) trans daughter or a dead son...?" Suicide isn't a fixed outcome, and I suspect telling kids that they have a condition that will almost certainly lead to suicide if XYZ doen't happen seems a little counterproductive. If I ever had a child experiencing this and a health practitioner said this, that would be a huge red flag.

I am curious about what you're seeing with transgender kids as far as the gender breakdown. Are you seeing 50/50 boys/girls, or are the numbers predominantly one gender or another?

 

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, cinepro said:

This is an interesting article that explores the nuances between what people are willing (or even able) to say in public, and how the current shifts in society are playing out. Relevant to LDS discussion because I've seen this play out in my own ward, where we have some "Category 1" members (read the article) who lash out at others who even dare question or try to discuss these issues.

Not to mention that the exMo/Critical Mo crowd seems to have jumped on this bandwagon with zealousness that would make a Danite blush, and it's used as a bludgeon against LDS and other exMos that aren't so sure...

How to Make Sense of the New L.B.G.T.Q. Culture War

Most interesting is this observation of the slippery slope:
 

The (admittedly conservative) author ends with this prediction:
 

This last prediction seems so obvious to me that I would almost considerate a "when", not "if", type statement.

Oh my flippin gosh!

You got your year's supply of upvotes on this comment on this board?  Congrats!

Oh by the way, in the interests of equity, I'm kinda short on "likes" lately and I was wondering if maybe.....

 

[pogi]

13 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Viewpoint from someone on the front lines dealing with these issues everyday. The Facebook group I administer and mentor for LDS families with queer children is currently getting 5 to 10 requests a day from parents wishing to join.  We are fast approaching 3,000 members in our group.  I and my wife are members of other groups for parents of queer kids that include people of all religions or no religions.   The numbers in these groups are in the 10's of thousands.   5 years ago 90% of the parents joining were dealing with gay kids.  Today its about 40% transgender, 40% gay and 20% other on the queer spectrum.  This article describes nothing that is actually going on.  If the author or any of you would take the time to visit with 20 parents of transgender children and visit with the children themselves, you would discover a very different picture.  You would discover kids with serious depression, suicidal thoughts and young lives coming apart until they come out as transgender.  Once they do, their mental health almost always begins to improve.   The first step these youth and their parents always take is counseling.  Transition usually starts with clothes, hair, makeup and binders.  After a period of counseling if the child is at the right age and wants to, they can start puberty blockers.  Almost all the transgender kids I know today choose the blockers.  The blockers aren't permanent and can be stopped at any time.  Almost universally parents report dramatic improvements in mental health and a return of happiness to their child's life.  Like any medication, there are those who don't respond well to puberty blockers and go off them.  That happens very rarely.  A very common occurrence is for a child to come out gay or bisexual to test the family waters.  If parents are accepting and things progress well, the child will then come out as transgender.  The kids aren't stupid and they know that many parents go into deep shock over transgender versus gay or bisexual.

Many parents currently have concerns about puberty blockers and detransitioning because of articles like this.  These parents are thoroughly investigating both issues and almost without fail come back with only positive reports.  Although there are articles arguing that many transgender people are regretting their decision, that is not the lived experience in the groups I am in.  Many parents in these groups have transgender children that transitioned 5 or more years ago and none have reported a child regretting their transition.  I personally know probably 100 transgender adults.  None of them have ever expressed any regrets.  The only regret they express is that they had to wait until adulthood to start transitioning.  We have had absolutely no cases of children coming out as queer then later saying they are straight or cisgender.  Many bisexual children have married someone of the opposite sex but they still openly call themselves bisexual.  

Now this is only my experience based on 10 years and thousands of personal stories but it resembles nothing like the article or comments offered above.  Kids will keep coming out as queer including transgender and their very lives will depend on acceptance and the ability to live life as they choose.  Literally, children are taking their lives because of the attitudes expressed in this article, by politicians and church leaders of religions.

Your experience seems to match a lot of research:

Quote

Of 56 peer-reviewed studies, 52 (93 percent) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people. The other 7 percent reported mixed or null findings. None of the reviewed studies showed that gender transition harms well-being.
The positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments include improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidal tendencies and substance use.
The positive impact of gender transition has grown considerably in recent years, as surgical techniques and social support have improved.
Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become increasingly rarer.

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/ what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people /

 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by pogi

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, pogi said:

Your experience seems to match a lot of research:

 

 

Makes sense. 

But just a nagging thought I've had, and I'm very supportive of the LGBTQ out there to the nth degree.

Wondering if the acceptance of each, made it so more would change over and if the acceptance wasn't there there'd be someone who would have lived a different life not knowing they were actually somebody else entirely. Pretty sure this situation is very much borderline, and there are those that know without a shadow of doubt at a very young age. And those that just went with the acceptable lifestyle weren't aware until later when the thought occurred to them what they actually feel has been trained right out of their thought processes. 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Tacenda

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Makes sense. 

But just a nagging thought I've had, and I'm very supportive of the LGBTQ out there to the nth degree.

Wondering if the acceptance of each, made it so more would change over and if the acceptance wasn't there there'd be someone who would have lived a different life not knowing they were actually somebody else entirely. Pretty sure this situation is very much borderline, and there are those that know without a shadow of doubt at a very young age. And those that just went with the acceptable lifestyle weren't aware until later when the thought occurred to them what they actually feel has been trained right out of their thought processes. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean.  Can you clarify?

[CV75]

20 hours ago, cinepro said:

This is an interesting article that explores the nuances between what people are willing (or even able) to say in public, and how the current shifts in society are playing out. Relevant to LDS discussion because I've seen this play out in my own ward, where we have some "Category 1" members (read the article) who lash out at others who even dare question or try to discuss these issues.

Not to mention that the exMo/Critical Mo crowd seems to have jumped on this bandwagon with zealousness that would make a Danite blush, and it's used as a bludgeon against LDS and other exMos that aren't so sure...

How to Make Sense of the New L.B.G.T.Q. Culture War

Most interesting is this observation of the slippery slope:
 

The (admittedly conservative) author ends with this prediction:
 

This last prediction seems so obvious to me that I would almost considerate a "when", not "if", type statement.

This article reminds me of Elder Anderson’s recent General Conference talk, "Following Jesus: Being a Peacemaker (subheading: Peacemakers are not passive; they are persuasive in the Savior’s way.) https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2022/04/15andersen?lang=eng:

Some notes/quotes:

“Although our humble desire is for the Savior’s teachings to be honored by all, the words of the Lord through His prophets are often contrary to the thinking and trends of the world. It has always been so.”

“We too can move away from contention and bless the lives of others while not isolating ourselves in our own corner.”

As this and other LGBTQ+ topics relate to matters of our faith, I find the counsel approach superior to the political debate approach, and we can bring counseling into our political discussions. I also find personal experience, reliable sources of research and spiritual insight good antidotes (at least good checks and balances) to any ideology or bias for which we must make exceptions or compromise for the greater good while preserving our innermost convictions as saints.

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'm not sure what you mean.  Can you clarify?

Hard to explain. Just had a thought that some may not even know if their bi, trans, queer or gay if they've never been provided with it being a possibility.. if it's borderline. And with the public awareness being out there, is it why we're seeing an increase of individuals coming out. Just wondering if not everyone knows their exact sexuality at a very young age and it's more fluid. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

That sounds more about the threat of killing than home schooling.  If a neighbor reported he would rather kill them than send them to church, it would problematic that he would even think of killing as an option, not that he sees church as an issue.  I can see it as appropriate to remove children from his care to investigate if there is any reason to find the neighbor credible.

I provided this link as a quick reference to the case, but I don’t recall the neighbor’s accusation from my reading about the case last year. The impression I got was that it was the couple’s refusal to heed the ban that got the children removed from the home, not the neighbor’s false report implying the children’s lives were in danger, and it was their violation of the ban that caused the human rights court in Europe to side with the government and rule against them. 
 

From the link:

The Wunderlich family had argued that the government had violated Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees protection for the privacy of home and family life, by forcing their four children to attend a local school.

The court found, however, that the family had not provided sufficient evidence that the children were properly educated and socialized, and that a government removing children from their parents to ensure they receive an education did not violate Article 8.

Added later: Here’s an article about a different family that was granted asylum in the United States because of the German government’s refusal to allow them to home school their children. 
 

https://m.dw.com/en/us-judge-grants-german-homeschooling-family-asylum/a-5174919

Edited April 14, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I provided this link as a quick reference to the case, but I don’t recall the neighbor’s accusation from my reading about the case last year. The impression I got was that it was the couple’s refusal to heed the ban that got the children removed from the home, not the neighbor’s false report implying the children’s lives were in danger, and it was their violation of the ban that caused the human rights court in Europe to side with the government and rule against them. 
 

From the link:

The Wunderlich family had argued that the government had violated Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, which guarantees protection for the privacy of home and family life, by forcing their four children to attend a local school.

The court found, however, that the family had not provided sufficient evidence that the children were properly educated and socialized, and that a government removing children from their parents to ensure they receive an education did not violate Article 8.

Added later: Here’s an article about a different family that was granted asylum in the United States because of the German government’s refusal to allow them to home school their children. 
 

https://m.dw.com/en/us-judge-grants-german-homeschooling-family-asylum/a-5174919

Is the giant font really necessary?

[Scott Lloyd]

21 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Is the giant font really necessary?

I don’t know what you mean. I copied and pasted, and it’s not showing up on my iPhone as a giant font. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

It is quite large on my iPad 

If you didn’t click on the plain text option at the bottom of the reply box, it can screw up formatting.  You phone may not show it sets it automatically.

Cant check my phone because waiting for a telehealth appt.

Added:  It is larger on my phone as well, but Analytics blows it out of the water easily, lol.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Calm

[Analytics]

58 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t know what you mean. I copied and pasted, and it’s not showing up on my iPhone as a giant font. 

Okay, thanks. On my computer screen, a few of your quotes show up absolutely huge. I assumed you were doing it deliberately for emphasis, which is both unnecessary and out of character. I'm glad it's just a copy-and-paste glitch.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is quite large on my iPad 

If you didn’t click on the plain text option at the bottom of the reply box, it can screw up formatting.  You phone may not show it sets it automatically.

Cant check my phone because waiting for a telehealth appt.

Sometimes I’ll decline to convert it to plain text, because the rich text sets it apart as a quote. It’s next to impossible for me to use the board’s quote function on my phone. That leaves me with limited options. Sometimes, if it’s fairly lengthy, I’ll put the quoted material in italics. Or I can use quotation marks. But then, I have to mess with changing the double quotes to single quotes if it’s an internal quotation. And that’s inconvenient. 
 

But if the pasted-in rich text is showing up in huge fonts, I guess I had better convert it. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Just had a thought that some may not even know if their bi, trans, queer or gay if they've never been provided with it being a possibility.

Precisely!

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sometimes I’ll decline to convert it to plain text, because the rich text sets it apart as a quote. It’s next to impossible for me to use the board’s quote function on my phone. That leaves me with limited options. Sometimes, if it’s fairly lengthy, I’ll put the quoted material in italics. Or I can use quotation marks. But then, I have to mess with changing the double quotes to single quotes if it’s an internal quotation. And that’s inconvenient. 
 

But if the pasted-in rich text is showing up in huge fonts, I guess I had better convert it. 

It is not annoying for me. It disappears in the quote box. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Okay, thanks. On my computer screen, a few of your quotes show up absolutely huge. I assumed you were doing it deliberately for emphasis, which is both unnecessary and out of character. I'm glad it's just a copy-and-paste glitch.

Annoyingly, if you don't remember to hit the "paste as plain text" on the bottom after pasting something, and the font is a different size, then most of the time everything that you type after that will show up in the same size as the pasted thing.

I'm sure it can be changed back but, still annoying.

(just wanted to add that since we are venting.   )

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Precisely!

Not saying that a trans person doesn't feel like they were born the wrong sex from the get go, or that a gay person didn't know they were attracted to the same sex from very early on either, hopefully my post explained that well enough.

My niece is either gay or trans, no girlfriend and she dresses more masculine, she's somewhere on the LGBTQIA spectrum but not really sure and she knew it when a youngster along with my nephew on my husband's side knew he was attracted to the same sex.

Maybe the most fluid are the bi's and that it may have occurred later in life that they could be attracted to both sexes.

When babies are assigned a gender when born because it was born w/o a specific gender that gives one the idea that it's likely that trans were born physically with a gender but not spiritually IMO. And they will make a completed change.