Elder Jörg Klebingat's Comments on Moral Relativism

[Navidad]

39 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

We have all the commandments, and a temple interview. In no way is it all vague. LoC, WoW, tithing, 10 commandments, leaving on a mission is a priesthood duty, raising a family in the church is important, etc.The gospel really isnt that complicated. Maybe if you are not a member of the church, but as members we have been given all the stardards of which we have to live. We have more than enough knowledge at this point, we just have to do it.

I hope you don't think I am on your case today - I don't mean to be. But I must reflect on what you said here. Here are my reflections: the church with which I identify (the Mennonite church) has a belief in the Biblical commandments, and some commandments in addition unique to itself. We have to go through interviews with elders and leaders prior to baptism, membership, ordination, teaching Sunday School,  licensure, marriage, going on a mission, and on and on. We certainly have a LoC that may be more strict than yours. We have a definite WoW, although it is predicated on not participating in the things of the world, more than in what we eat or drink. We are clearly expected to tithe. I can't get over our bishop telling us we can't, as non-members tithe to the LDS church, the place we go every Sunday. Many, if not most of our young people and often retired people go on missions. I did. That is an expectation. We certainly believe that raising a family in the church is important as well. You are not unique or alone in your requirements and expectations. In fact, I bet that (uh oh, we are not allowed to do that) a Mennonite grandma or mom can out-guilt an LDS grandma or mom, 7 times out of 10! Ha! Ditto for a Mennonite bishop! Take care my friend.

[The Nehor]

54 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

We have all the commandments, and a temple interview. In no way is it all vague. LoC, WoW, tithing, 10 commandments, leaving on a mission is a priesthood duty, raising a family in the church is important, etc.The gospel really isnt that complicated. Maybe if you are not a member of the church, but as members we have been given all the stardards of which we have to live. We have more than enough knowledge at this point, we just have to do it. Like in Lehis vision of the tree, we live inside a fog yes, but we also have the Rod of Iron which ensures our destination and what we should do.

Obscure doctrines sure, but as far as actual behavior as dictated by commandments and prophetic teachings the gospel is really simple. People want to complicate it, which really reminds me of the Timothy scripture: always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 

If I thought that was the whole gospel I would be a little less stressed and a lot more bored.

[MiserereNobis]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Personal subjective experience is the foundation of belief in Mormonism.  Such things are relative.   We don’t believe in any objective and literalist sola scriptura approaches that flourish in absolutist mentality.

It's interesting to me that there is no formalized mysticism in Mormonism. I know the idea of prayer and receiving a testimony is foundational. I would think there would have been people who wanted to take it further and use meditative practices. Is the issue that Christian meditation comes from other denominations, and thus they are questionable and/or possibly contrary to LDS doctrines? Or could it be more cultural, since your church's cultural background is protestant and protestants tend to have less formalized meditative practices?

[SwedishLDS]

12 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I hope you don't think I am on your case today - I don't mean to be. But I must reflect on what you said here. Here are my reflections: the church with which I identify (the Mennonite church) has a belief in the Biblical commandments, and some commandments in addition unique to itself. We have to go through interviews with elders and leaders prior to baptism, membership, ordination, teaching Sunday School,  licensure, marriage, going on a mission, and on and on. We certainly have a LoC that may be more strict than yours. We have a definite WoW, although it is predicated on not participating in the things of the world, more than in what we eat or drink. We are clearly expected to tithe. I can't get over our bishop telling us we can't, as non-members tithe to the LDS church, the place we go every Sunday. Many, if not most of our young people and often retired people go on missions. I did. That is an expectation. We certainly believe that raising a family in the church is important as well. You are not unique or alone in your requirements and expectations. In fact, I bet that (uh oh, we are not allowed to do that) a Mennonite grandma or mom can out-guilt an LDS grandma or mom, 7 times out of 10! Ha! Ditto for a Mennonite bishop! Take care my friend.

haha, your fine, and I think you have a good point on denomination teachings. There certainly is a lot of churches, and thats not even mentioning all the other relgions/ideologies/spiritualities/etc. I appreciate your answer, and your participation. I suppose I have just become a boomer at heart even though im twenty, haha

 

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If I thought that was the whole gospel I would be a little less stressed and a lot more bored.

Haha, I didnt mention Christs sacrifice, so thats on me. I know christ has promised it will all be good in the end, for those that follow him.

 

 

Finally, I just want to say I respect all of you. 

I think I will have to ponder on this topic for a couple weeks and take a step back from this conversation.

Edited April 8, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

Personal revelation through the holy spirit is the basis, but I see your point

Have you ever experienced an evolution of spiritual understanding as new light is given?   I have.  I don’t anticipate that process to stop until I am exalted.  I can with no degree of confidence believe that my understanding won’t evolve on any principle.  I have assurances that the seed or word is good, but that is the extent of my confidence.  I remain open to further light and knowledge on everything. 

[SwedishLDS]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Have you ever experienced an evolution of spiritual understanding as new light is given?   I have.  I don’t anticipate that process to stop until I am exalted.  I can with no degree of confidence believe that my understanding won’t evolve on any principle.  I have assurances that the seed or word is good, but that is the extent of my confidence.  I remain open to further light and knowledge on everything. 

I have, and sorry for being pedantic. I think you are right, and that seems like a healthy attitude. I am willing to change (at least I think I am haha). I think I see what you mean more now.

Edited April 8, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's interesting to me that there is no formalized mysticism in Mormonism. I know the idea of prayer and receiving a testimony is foundational. I would think there would have been people who wanted to take it further and use meditative practices. Is the issue that Christian meditation comes from other denominations, and thus they are questionable and/or possibly contrary to LDS doctrines? Or could it be more cultural, since your church's cultural background is protestant and protestants tend to have less formalized meditative practices?

I’ll try to address this more later, but for now all I can say is that I have “holy envy”. 

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, pogi said:

In conference, Elder Jörg Klebingat made the following comments:

The reference is 2 Nephi 2:13, which states:

That is not at all what relativism states.  We can believe in law and sin.

Church leaders are increasingly attacking relativism, but I wonder if they really understand it or consider how moral relativism does not necessarily exclude the idea that God has absolutes. 

He continues to define relativism:

Again, this is a clear misunderstanding.  Perhaps there are some who misuse relativism to justify "behavioral lapses", but that should not be used against relativism in general.

He continues:

Again, that simply is untrue.

He goes on:

This also is a mischaracterization of what relativism is.  To suggest that moral relativists feel no responsibility, or that they are only concerned with their "rights" is just mistaken.  One can simultaneously accept that God's truths and God's morals are absolute while accepting that our understanding and interpretation of such things are unavoidably relative. 

Fasting, praying, and pondering are my bedrock.  I take personal responsibility for my actions.  I strive to align myself with the absolute source that is the elephant (I think you all know what I am referencing by now), but alas, I am a mortal who sees through a glass dimly and who blindly palpates the elephant to the best of my ability - I am a relativist, something that is increasingly being attacked in the church, see:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dallin-h-oaks/truth-and-tolerance/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/now-is-the-time-to-defend-truth-elder-christofferson-declares?lang=eng

It is unfortunate that these attacks are based on incomplete and misguided understanding of this philosophy.  I only hope that this increasing drive to malign relativism along with those who subscribe to it, do not drive away the rising generation who probably have a more healthy understanding of this philosophy.  One survey from 2 decades ago showed that 3/4 of college seniors polled believed in moral relativism.  I wonder how many LDS subscribe to the philosophy of relativism and feel maligned and pushed away by talks like this.  A healthy and proper understanding of how relativism jives perfectly with Latter-day Saintism would go a long way in missionary efforts towards the rising generation.  Talks like this do not help.

Bravissimo!!  Frame this! 👍👍

I think it is impossible to affirm both seeking revelation on moral issues while believing in absolute values which cannot be adjusted or interpreted.

The two ideas contradict each other.

"Get your own testimony, but not about morals"

THAT'S the philosophical problem the church faces when preaching absolutism about ANYTHING.

James 1 and Moroni 10 and Alma 32 are the BOTTOM LINE and cornerstones which even allowed Joseph Smith to start his Restoration. He asked God, and God told him all these absolutes were wrong

Joseph himself can be seen as a disobedient relativist who followed his own heart, above all else!!

But of course I sustain Bro Klebingat's authority.

None of us are educated as much as we could be in philosophy but no one ever said you had to study the philosophies of men to get to the celestial Kingdom

Even relativism is only relatively true.

Some moral principles are simply ALWAYS true.  I believe it is an eternal moral absolute principle that murdering babies for fun is wrong, always and everywhere.

It is a crime against humanity, and objectifies humanity itself 

Sorry, I had to pick a particularly disgusting one to make the point.

Edited April 8, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

On 4/8/2022 at 1:58 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Or could it be more cultural, since your church's cultural background is protestant and protestants tend to have less formalized meditative practices

I think it is this to a great extent, at least from the reaction to stuff like Yoga and meditation in my youth and all that hippie stuff and I imagine a generation back it was viewed with even more suspicion the way it could be linked with Spiritualism.  Our examples of spiritual meditation were limited to going out into the woods and praying until you got an answer. (Joseph Smith, Enos in the Book of Mormon)  How to prepare yourself for that never involved training the brain for stillness except through prayer and scripture reading.  In the last twenty years there has been more talk about the benefits from actual meditation, but I don’t think there has ever been a concerted effort to get more Saints doing it, more like removing the stigma.
 

It seems in my life a number of women who have explored things like energy healing have often ended up leaving the Church.  Men (less experience here) seem to be more often into getting personal visions. I think many just want to be able to have in their daily life something that feels less mundane, less practical…something of wonder. It probably would be helpful to have some form of formalized meditative practice, including communal, some structure to keep those interested in that path grounded rather than wandering off in an effort to find the next thing that will provide the new insight.  If they knew they could achieve what they wanted through simple meditation with patience and saw others further along so to speak, they might not latch on to what they see as a shortcut or the sure thing to take them to the next level gimmick, etc.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

48 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's interesting to me that there is no formalized mysticism in Mormonism. I know the idea of prayer and receiving a testimony is foundational. I would think there would have been people who wanted to take it further and use meditative practices. Is the issue that Christian meditation comes from other denominations, and thus they are questionable and/or possibly contrary to LDS doctrines? Or could it be more cultural, since your church's cultural background is protestant and protestants tend to have less formalized meditative practices?

Right you are, and it's weird because obviously Joseph believed in visions, and can be seen as a mystic.  But there also is a real "Yankee Common Sense" - pilgrim thing going too.

That Protestant influence, frankly has bugged me for 44 years since I joined.

It was, frankly my Catholic mystic side that came out contemplating Moroni 10, while in a Catholic church that gave me the Experience that changed my life

A great book!

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by mfbukowski

[the narrator]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I've been wanting to pick this one up.

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I've been wanting to pick this one up.

Available on Kindle- for me the problem is to get time to read all I have already downloaded!

But I just concluded a 6 year project in real estate that has taken up all my "work make-a-living-time" and will be catching up on this stuff, finally! 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Do you see any reason for concern in their over-generalization and condemnation and mischaracterization of philosophies that they clearly don't appreciate the nuances of?  Do you see any concern with religious leaders full throated endorsement of potentially dangerous philosophies of men (moral absolutism) without really explaining what they personally mean by it?

 

Someone should warn them of the dangerous philosophies to which they are exposing the Church. 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Do you believe that all people are going to be held morally accountable by the same universal and absolute standard of morality?  

Yes. The Law of Justice demands this. No unclean thing can enter God’s presence. We are all unclean. Mercy through the Atonement of Jesus Christ is the antidote. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

May I suggest that the OP here make those suggestions and identify those concerns with the speaker directly.   Pretty sure that is the type of letter that a speaker might find helpful.

Or we can pick apart his words here and hope it drifts over to the speaker so he can make amends.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I can't get over our bishop telling us we can't, as non-members tithe to the LDS church, the place we go every Sunday.

Have you asked him if, as non- members, you can contribute fast offerings and humanitarian donations?

Quote

In fact, I bet that (uh oh, we are not allowed to do that) a Mennonite grandma or mom can out-guilt an LDS grandma or mom, 7 times out of 10!

Is that out-guilt or out-quilt?

Edited April 8, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

A great book!

 

Frankly, that looks fascinating. I'll have to check it out!

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It probably would be helpful to have some form of formalized meditative practice, including communal, some structure to keep those interested in that path grounded rather than wandering off in an effort to find the next thing that will provide the new insight.

Yes, this is one of guard rails that having formalized practice with a spiritual director provides.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's interesting to me that there is no formalized mysticism in Mormonism. I know the idea of prayer and receiving a testimony is foundational. I would think there would have been people who wanted to take it further and use meditative practices. Is the issue that Christian meditation comes from other denominations, and thus they are questionable and/or possibly contrary to LDS doctrines? Or could it be more cultural, since your church's cultural background is protestant and protestants tend to have less formalized meditative practices?

But there is. We LDS commonly use the term ponder rather than meditate.  Here is our definition of ponder (meditate)…

Quote

To meditate and think deeply, often upon the scriptures or other things of God. When combined with prayer, pondering the things of God may bring revelation and understanding.

Our history, scriptures, and teachings are full of examples…

History. Joseph Smith’s meditation resulted in a visitation of a resurrected being.

Quote

I lay musing on the singularity of the scene, and marveling greatly at what had been told to me by this extraordinary messenger; when, in the midst of my meditation, I suddenly discovered that my room was again beginning to get lighted, and in an instant, as it were, the same heavenly messenger was again by my bedside.

Scriptures. Joseph F. Smith’s pondering resulted in the great revelation about the after-life.

Quote

On the third of October, in the year nineteen hundred and eighteen, I sat in my room pondering over the scriptures; And reflecting upon the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son of God, for the redemption of the world;
And the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world;

Teachings. Elder Russell M. Ballard recommended we all take time to meditate.

Quote

During the past several weeks of physical recovery, I have found myself with more time on my hands than I am accustomed to, with an unscheduled opportunity to think, to ponder, and to pray. I do not recommend the course of action that brought this gift of time to me, but I believe all of us would benefit from time to ponder and meditate. In the quiet moments of personal introspection, the Spirit can teach us much.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

45 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, this is one of guard rails that having formalized practice with a spiritual director provides.

I have found mindfulness meditation very valuable and all it requires is to teach yourself to observe your own thoughts while doing some simple, repetitive body-connection stuff. Like being conscious of your breathing or hanging your hand at your side and feeling your pulse in each finger in turn, 1-5 then repeat again and again.

No.mantras allowed!

The trick is to OBSERVE the thoughts coming in and out of your mind without letting it take over, if it does, simply throw it out, and resume

There's a lot of potential in that for LDS folks.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's interesting to me that there is no formalized mysticism in Mormonism. I know the idea of prayer and receiving a testimony is foundational. I would think there would have been people who wanted to take it further and use meditative practices. Is the issue that Christian meditation comes from other denominations, and thus they are questionable and/or possibly contrary to LDS doctrines? Or could it be more cultural, since your church's cultural background is protestant and protestants tend to have less formalized meditative practices?

Formalized practice would legitimize the revelations from it. Visions, dreams, and the like do happen with some consistency in the Church. At a Zone Conference my Mission President talked about getting letters about visions and inspired dreams and the like and admitted much of it was outside his experience. He wrote to the Apostles and they told him to leave them alone. Such things can be for individual benefit but are best not promulgated amongst a lot of people. Part of it is the individualized nature of the experience and part of it is that often a description of a vision leaves out a lot of the important stuff.

I guess this goes back to Joseph Smith saying you won’t understand visions and prophecies unless you have the same spirit of prophecy.

I have had a few experiences that would fit this mold. I am still not entirely sure what to make of them. One was in a meditative state. I still wonder how much was my mind making sense of things and how much was revelation and I am sure there was a healthy portion of the latter. I wrote it all down right afterwards. Didn’t help much though. Reading it now it is almost nonsensical and parts are gibberish.

[Peacefully]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I have found mindfulness meditation very valuable and all it requires is to teach yourself to observe your own thoughts while doing some simple, repetitive body-connection stuff. Like being conscious of your breathing or hanging your hand at your side and feeling your pulse in each finger in turn, 1-5 then repeat again and again.

No.mantras allowed!

The trick is to OBSERVE the thoughts coming in and out of your mind without letting it take over, if it does, simply throw it out, and resume

There's a lot of potential in that for LDS folks.

I agree. I was taught to focus on the breath and meditate by an LDS counselor. Very helpful for my anxiety. 

[Navidad]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you asked him if, as non- members, you can contribute fast offerings and humanitarian donations?

Is that out-guilt or out-quilt?

Yes, we clearly can do both. Your last sentence officially makes this the best post I have ever read on this forum! That was great! Congrats! I do think however that the ability to make a good snickerdoodle is definitely a tie! About five years ago I spoke at an informal fireside in the home of a former Mexican federal senator, probably the only member of the church to have ever held a position that high in the federal government. At a break in the presentation, his wife and other ladies served their own unique stlye of snickerdoodles. As we feasted on them, I leaned over to my wife and said "We can go to church with these folks!" We have been ever since!

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Yes, we clearly can do both. Your last sentence officially makes this the best post I have ever read on this forum! That was great! Congrats! I do think however that the ability to make a good snickerdoodle is definitely a tie! About five years ago I spoke at an informal fireside in the home of a former Mexican federal senator, probably the only member of the church to have ever held a position that high in the federal government. At a break in the presentation, his wife and other ladies served their own unique stlye of snickerdoodles. As we feasted on them, I leaned over to my wife and said "We can go to church with these folks!" We have been ever since!

Thanks! Could you consider fast offerings and humanitarian donations as your tithing?

Were those snickerdoodles called biscochitos…sugar and cinnamon cookies?

Edited April 9, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thanks! Could you consider fast offerings and humanitarian donations as your tithing?

Were those snickerdoodles called biscochitos…sugar and cinnamon cookies?

Yes we do as you suggest. Everyone in attendance at that Fireside was English speaking so they were just plain snickerdoodles. Biscochitos are New Mexicanish with sometimes a crunchier texture. Great snickerdoodles have a softer texture that falls apart when you dip them in milk! The one thing that frustrates me here is that there is no scrapple. I grew up in Pennsylvania eating scrapple and apple butter for breakfast. It was a Mennonite staple. I have searched high and low here - no scrapple or apple butter! We have to order both online.