Elder Jörg Klebingat's Comments on Moral Relativism

[Navidad]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

CFR, please. 

It is my understanding from every explanation I have read of D&C 76: 71-98 that God the Father and Son will dwell in the Celestial Kingdom. Christ will visit the next lowest (terrestial) , and the Holy Spirit will minister in the third (the telestial). Do you disagree with this? Is it your understanding that those in the Terrestial and Telestial kingdoms will experience God the Father and Son in their fullness? That is my only hope for eternal life; to be with the Father and Son for eternity. Anything less than that is not eternal life. Do you disagree? 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

You should write a book on this or at least an article.  That would make a decent Ensign article.

If Pogi and Bernard, two whom I respect highly, disagree on such a core concept, which is someone like me to understand is the true  LDS position? Do you, like others wonder why I keep asking?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

If Pogi and Bernard, two whom I respect highly, disagree on such a core concept, which is someone like me to understand is the true  LDS position? Do you, like others wonder why I keep asking?

Nope. I do the same when I find there are gaps in my understanding. There are conclusions you make and positions you hold that I don’t get and I have repeated questions myself, though since you are one poster I try to spread them out so it isn’t badgering.  

[mrmarklin]

To an atheist, ultimately, everything is relative. 
 

Religion is the anchor that holds humanity in place. But many don’t like it. They want to do their “thing”. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

To an atheist, ultimately, everything is relative. 
 

Religion is the anchor that holds humanity in place. But many don’t like it. They want to do their “thing”. 

Strange analogy since a ship that is always anchored probably isn’t fulfilling its purpose.

[pogi]

11 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

To an atheist, ultimately, everything is relative.

This is the same problem I had with Elder Klebingat's generalization and mischaracterization of relativism.  The philosophy of relativism is WAY more broad than you guys are making it out to be.  Relativism does not = atheism. Not all relativists are atheists, and not all atheists are relativists.    But if we are going to play the guilt by association game, I think it is safe to say that all radical extremist and terrorist are absolutists.

This article in psychology today goes as far as to suggests that "absolutist" is a better term than "extremist":

Quote

We say that it's important to distinguish Muslims from Muslim extremists, but we don’t say how to make that distinction. “Extreme” is a relative term and as such, easily abused. One can call anyone who falls to either side of one’s position an extremist. Maybe “extremist” is the kind of term we can’t define except intuitively. I doubt that. I think it means something specific and definable.

An extremist is someone who insists on the unerring infallibility of some belief that they embrace – no doubts or questions remaining, no receptivity to challenging evidence or argument and no compromises tolerated. A more accurate term is absolutist. The word originally meant “set free, make separate, loosened away.” Absolutists hold their beliefs separate or away from all challenging influences. Absolutism is an ideological tax haven, a place to harbor your beliefs free from the taxing challenge of learning new things and refining them.

He makes some good points, but the fatal flaw of the article is that it is the opposite equivalent of Elder Klebingat's talk where he over-generalizes absolutism into the furthest extreme of absolutism that you can get.  It seems that people don't like nuance. 

11 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Religion is the anchor that holds humanity in place. But many don’t like it. They want to do their “thing”. 

Again, relativism/absolutism are philosophical terms, not religious ones.   This discussion is not about the pro's and con's of religion.  I agree that religion can be good and is critical for humanity, but it can also be bad...VERY bad when taken to absolutist extremes.   We often hear about the dangers of relativism from religionists, but we rarely hear about the dangers of absolutism from them.

To your first comment about atheists being relativists - Just like relativism and absolutism, there are endless kinds of atheists.  Axiological, or constructive, atheism replaces God with a "higher absolute" called humanity.  It is a mistake to generalize by associating atheism with relativism, because there "absolutely" are moral absolutists who are atheist's.    One who is popular right now is Sam Harris.   He is an atheists, a humanist, and a moral absolutist who believes that science can be used as the objective measure of morality.  He wrote a popular book on it called "The Moral Landscape".   I would argue that absolutism (from internal and external sources) is the greater threat to religion (and mankind) than relativism.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I guess we understand the invitation “to listen to the Spirit and “to ponder these things in our hearts” differently. 
There are copious references to “the still small voice” and how it is best heard.

I don't think we understand the invitation differently, and I agree that there are many references on how the spirit can be heard, but what I think where we relatively could grow is in our teachings of how to best listen.  There is an important distinction there between hearing and listening.  I am not suggesting that the topic of listening is entirely absent from our teachings, but it is no where near the same level we see in other mystic traditions.  Not even close. 

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If we were truly in need of the formalized teachings and practices you propose we borrow from other faiths, they would be revealed and taught by the prophets. 

It depends on what you mean by "need".  I think the prophets have effectively given us all that we "need" in terms of saving ordinances and providing a path to exaltation.  That is not to say however, that there is not much to be discovered outside of our Church which can be incredibly edifying, enlightening, inspirational, spiritually educational, with opportunities for growth/teachings which we cannot find within our church.  Our church is not the sole recipient of revealed truth.  If we are limiting our spiritual learning to what is taught in our church, than we are severely limiting our potential for spiritual progress.  In fact, our prophets have historically encouraged us to reach out and learn spiritual truths from external sources.  

 

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am not suggesting that the topic of listening is entirely absent from our teachings, but it is no where near the same level we see in other mystic traditions.  Not even close. 

I am thinking detailed exercises, where they take you step by step through the process.  Is that part of what you are describing?  Instruction in the how, not just the what and why, and detailed instructions at that.

The Church to me is like talking about Yoga, showing its benefits, showing a few pictures and giving a brief summary of the process before sending people off to practice on their own while some other faiths have the level of DVDs or classes with an instructor taking you through the process until you are capable of doing it on your own.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Calm

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am thinking detailed exercises, where they take you step by step through the process.  Is that part of what you are describing.  Instruction in the how, not just the what and why, and detailed instructions at that.

The Church to me is like talking about Yoga, showing its benefits, showing a few pictures and giving a brief summary of the process before sending people off to practice on their own while some other faiths have the level of DVDs or classes with an instructor taking you through the process until you are capable of doing it on your own.

Yes, practical guidance.  That is a good analogy with yoga. 

If you tell just about any random Latter-day Saint to sit still and listen for 20 minutes, twice daily, I think most would go bat crazy within a week and give up without any practical skills of meditation.  They don't even know what they are missing out on, because they don't know how to listen at that level.  It simply is not taught in our church how to practically deal with distractions of the mind, etc. and how to focus attention "with an eye single to God".  We give lip service to passages like "be still and know that I am God", but I highly doubt that many truly have any advanced skills in being still, especially in their mind.    

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Strange analogy since a ship that is always anchored probably isn’t fulfilling its purpose.

Without a reliable anchor, a rappeller falls to her destruction.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Yes, practical guidance.  That is a good analogy with yoga. 

If you tell just about any random Latter-day Saint to sit still and listen for 20 minutes, twice daily, I think most would go bat crazy within a week and give up without any practical skills of meditation.  They don't even know what they are missing out on, because they don't know how to listen at that level.  It simply is not taught in our church how to practically deal with distractions of the mind, etc. and how to focus attention "with an eye single to God".  We give lip service to passages like "be still and know that I am God", but I highly doubt that many truly have any advanced skills in being still, especially in their mind.    

 

There are audiotapes out there that do this- If someone DID this, with an LDS twist, it would be useful?

Would folks think someone is trying to hypnotize/ brainwash them?

I think it would have to come from "The Church" for it to work.  Part of the problem is that in LDS culture "meditate" means to "think hard" about say a scripture, which is NOT the objective in the kind of meditation we are talking about.

Mindfulness is about NOT thinking but observing your thoughts as they float on by. It's about freeing oneself from unwanted thoughts.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Yes, practical guidance.  That is a good analogy with yoga. 

If you tell just about any random Latter-day Saint to sit still and listen for 20 minutes, twice daily, I think most would go bat crazy within a week and give up without any practical skills of meditation.  They don't even know what they are missing out on, because they don't know how to listen at that level.  It simply is not taught in our church how to practically deal with distractions of the mind, etc. and how to focus attention "with an eye single to God".  We give lip service to passages like "be still and know that I am God", but I highly doubt that many truly have any advanced skills in being still, especially in their mind.    

 

Perhaps someone should apprise the Prophets of their abject failure. 

[Bernard Gui]

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There are audiotapes out there that do this- If someone DID this, with an LDS twist, it would be useful?

Would folks think someone is trying to hypnotize/ brainwash them?

I think it would have to come from "The Church" for it to work.  Part of the problem is that in LDS culture "meditate" means to "think hard" about say a scripture, which is NOT the objective in the kind of meditation we are talking about.

Mindfulness is about NOT thinking but observing your thoughts as they float on by. It's about freeing oneself from unwanted thoughts.

I would mostly agree except for the “think hard” part. I believe “thinking hard” could be the antithesis to listening to the Spirit, as in this from Elder Eyring. I think it is a good description of what the Prophets mean by ponder or meditate, as in the OP talk by Elder Klebingat.

Quote

If your faith in Jesus Christ has led to a heart softened through the effects of His Atonement, you will be more able to feel the whisperings of the Spirit in answer to your prayers. My personal experience is that the still, small voice—which is real —is clear and discernible in my mind when I feel an internal quiet and submission to the Lord’s will. That feeling of humility can be best described as “Not my will, but thine, be done.”

IMO.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps someone should apprise the Prophets of their abject failure. 

Why do you classify it as an "abject failure"? I wouldn't. 

They never professed to be the sole source of all revealed truth and edifying spiritual principles, or that we can't spiritually benefit and learn new useful skills from searching out the best books from external sources.  Quite the contrary, actually.  

[Bernard Gui]

Seek and ye shall find. 
 

Quote

Pondering: Giving the Lord Your Full Attention
By Andrew Call

Is pondering hard for you? Here are some tips to help you make the most of it and apply it in your spiritual pursuits.

How many times have you sat in your room—alone, in silence, without any distractions—and just thought?
Many people, especially prophets, ponder a lot! There are so many examples of pondering in the scriptures:
Nephi did it when he wanted to understand his father’s vision of the tree of life (see 1 Nephi 11:1).
Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) did it when he received revelation about the spirit world (see Doctrine and Covenants 138:1–2).
Jesus Christ invited the Nephites to do it after He spoke to them (see 3 Nephi 17:3).
And countless other individuals in both the scriptures and the latter days practice some form of thinking or reflecting in isolation (see Luke 2:19; 2 Nephi 4:15; Helaman 10:2; Moroni 10:3; Joseph Smith—History 1:47). And you know what? In each of these situations, it led to revelation!
So what makes pondering so special? Isn’t it just thinking?

What Is Pondering?

Let’s go over the definition together, because pondering isn’t really just thinking. It means “to meditate and think deeply, often upon the scriptures or other things of God. When combined with prayer, pondering the things of God may bring revelation and understanding.”
Two things stand out to me in this definition. First off, pondering is deeper than regular thought and often includes prayer. It requires more focus and effort. It is active, not passive, thought. For me, it always helps to be alone in silence when I’m pondering, but the amazing thing about it is that when you focus, you can do it anywhere—such as while gardening or exercising.
Second, it is thinking deeply about “the scriptures or other things of God.” This could be thinking about the doctrines of the gospel and asking the Lord how to apply them in our individual lives. It could also mean thinking about many more things like our education, careers, interests, and so on if we view them with an eternal perspective.

Pondering and Personal Revelation

We are encouraged to ponder because it is a key to receiving revelation—Heavenly Father often speaks to us through our thoughts (see Doctrine and Covenants 8:2–3; 9:8–9).
But while pondering may be simple, that doesn’t necessarily make it easy. It can be especially hard to discern His voice when we are constantly distracted by the loudness of the world. So how can we think about the things of God in a way that will inspire personal revelation, as it did for many people we read about in the scriptures?
Well, there are a few things we can do. Elder Scott D. Whiting of the Seventy offered four steps to ponder effectively:

    Prepare a quiet place free from distractions.

    Read scriptures with the desire to learn from them, rather than to just finish, by thinking deeply about what we are reading.

    Reflect upon what we have read and think about it again and again.

    Engage our minds in an active process.

He also taught:
“Learning to ponder requires practice and through practice, you can come to learn of the power that comes from pondering. …
“… Clearly, the power that comes from pondering is the power to receive revelation.”
Still, as young adults, we may find it difficult at times to see how to fit pondering into our daily lives. But it’s all about giving ourselves the time and space to do it. A little bit more time and effort in your study can make all the difference.

Making Time for Pondering

Allow me to set two scenes that illustrate the two ways my scripture study usually goes:
    I arrive at the end of the day, exhausted from school, work, and social activities. As I collapse into bed, I realize I haven’t done my scripture study that day. I open up the Gospel Library on my phone, read five verses of scripture, and then go to sleep without any thought for what I read.

    I schedule out time for studying the scriptures—the earlier in the day the better. I begin with a simple prayer, asking for the Spirit and mental clarity. I then read the scriptures with an open journal beside me. As I read, I write down thoughts and impressions I receive. It’s a short study, but I’m actively thinking about how the verses apply to my life, and I reflect on them throughout the day.

See the difference? I’m always left feeling like I’m missing something in the first scenario, whereas I feel like I’m actually searching, communicating, and receiving revelation from God in the second scenario. The difference requires a little more time and effort. But whenever I allow myself time to ponder, I realize that daily personal revelation is so possible and so near.
Just a few months ago, I graduated from college. The day I put on the cap and gown, I felt excited, happy, grateful, and so incredibly nervous. I remember feeling confused and fearful of what lay ahead in my future. It wasn’t until a few weeks later when I was listening to a conference talk and thinking about what the speaker was saying that I felt the power of the Spirit. It was an overwhelming feeling of comfort and direction. I immediately wrote down in my journal the thoughts that were coming to me, and now I look to those words whenever I feel doubt. That journal entry has become a source of comfort for me because it feels as if it came straight from God.
This story brings up another important principle: pondering time isn’t limited to your scripture study time. Imagine if you gave yourself time to sit in your room and think after praying. Imagine if you fully immersed yourself in thoughts about the Savior during the sacrament. Imagine if you took advantage of more quiet moments in your life—maybe on your commute to school or work. Or perhaps while you’re on a walk. The Lord’s guidance is available not just in our morning prayers or nightly scripture studies—it is available throughout each day.
Elder Marvin J. Ashton (1915–94) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught: “By pondering, we give the Spirit an opportunity to impress and direct. Pondering is a powerful link between the heart and the mind. As we read the scriptures, our hearts and minds are touched. If we use the gift to ponder, we can take these eternal truths and realize how we can incorporate them into our daily actions.”

Practice Pondering

Remember the words of Elder Whiting: “Learning to ponder requires practice.” This is a process that takes time! But the revelation and rewards that come from pondering are well worth the effort. If you are struggling to ponder or can’t seem to get the answer you desire, ask yourself these questions:
    Am I really allowing the words of the Lord to sink deep into my heart? (see Enos 1:3).

    How often do I seek quiet time for Him to speak to me?

    In what ways has He spoken to me in the past?

    What are some other ways He could be trying to speak to me?

    How can I show the Savior that I desire to hear His voice?

If the heavens seem closed right now, keep trying. He will never give up on you, so you shouldn’t give up on Him. God is always there, always patient, and always ready to answer when we are ready to hear Him. As President Russell M. Nelson said: “Does God really want to speak to you? Yes!”
So the next time you study the scriptures, make it a little more intentional. Give yourself enough time. Pull out your journal. Think deeply about how the doctrine you’re studying applies to your life, your trials, and your relationships—and be sure to reflect on these thoughts throughout the day. Practice pondering. Heavenly Father wants to lead and guide us through revelation—we simply need to give Him our full attention.

Young Adult Weekly, March 2022

Andrew Call recently graduated with a degree in journalism from Brigham Young University. He loves writing, running, listening to music, and watching movies with his wife. He served a mission in Independence, Missouri, USA. He knows that Jesus Christ is our Savior and that a life centered on Him is the happiest life there is.

Granted, Bro Call is not a General Authority.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

But this is a General Authority at an Ensign College devotional,November, 2017.
 

Quote

The Power of Pondering

by Elder Scott D. Whiting

Good morning, my dear brothers and sisters. I am honored to be with you today and so very grateful that I have received this assignment from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. I congratulate President Kusch on his recent appointment as president of the LDS Business College. I know that he will bless you with his leadership just as you will bless him with your righteous examples.

I have pondered much about what I should speak on today and while engaged in that process I had the distinct impression that I should speak about that very process—that is, pondering and the power that comes to us when we ponder over sacred things.

Pondering is a spiritual principle that is often spoken of in scripture and by prophets, seers, and revelators, but I have learned that not many of us know how to ponder or how to do so with the degree of effectiveness that will unlock the desired results. It is my hope that I may be able to help you learn to develop this gift.

Let’s begin by considering what pondering is. The dictionary defines the word “ponder” in the following ways:

“to weigh in the mind, to think about and reflect on”, and “to think or consider quietly, soberly and deeply” (“Ponder.” Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 4 Oct. 2017).

Another word used as a synonym is the word “meditate.”

From my own experience, I have learned that pondering is an active process that requires discipline, focus, and persistence. Learning to ponder requires practice and through practice, you can come to learn of the power that comes from pondering.

Elder Marvin J. Ashton taught that, “pondering is a progressive mental pursuit. It is a gift to those who have learned to use it” (Marvin J. Ashton, October 1987 General Conference, “There are Many Gifts”).

By way of contrast, the opposite of pondering is “wandering”. The dictionary defines “wandering” as “losing normal mental contact, and straying in thought” (“Wander.” Merriam-Webster.com. Merriam-Webster, n.d. Web. 4 Oct. 2017). Something that will likely happen to most of you as my talk progresses this morning.

Even though these are opposite actions, I have learned that there is a fine line that separates pondering and wandering. Perhaps you have had experiences like me when you are trying to ponder only to find your mind seemingly a million miles away from what you intended to think deeply about.

The scriptures are filled with rich and helpful examples of both how to ponder and the power that comes from pondering. First, let’s look at some examples of how others have successfully used pondering as a spiritual tool.

In the last section of the Doctrine and Covenants, President Joseph F. Smith gives us a great account of the pondering process he used to receive the comforting and instructive revelation on our kindred dead. Listen to the description he gives in Section 138:

On the third of October, in the year nineteen hundred and eighteen, I sat in my room pondering over the scriptures; (Doctrine & Covenants 138:1).

And, reflecting upon the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son of God for the redemption of the world (Doctrine & Covenants 138:2).

While I was thus engaged, my mind reverted to the writings of the Apostle Peter… (Doctrine & Covenants 138:5).

So, what do we learn about the process of pondering from these scriptures? I have identified four steps? First, he sat in his room. Now that may not sound like a very important part of the process. However, please consider how many times you have “sat in your room” with no music, no television or any other distractions? Just you, alone, in your room. (I’m sorry, but lying on your bed doesn’t count.) By sitting in his room, President Smith set the stage for the commencement of the pondering process. He eliminated distractions and created a sacred space where he could think deeply about sacred things. Interestingly, Nephi also included sitting as part of his pondering process. In first Nephi, chapter 11 verse 1 it reads, “For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord,…” Apparently, sitting is a good start to this process.

The second step, after he prepared the time and the environment, was to begin the pondering process by thinking deeply over the scriptures he had read. Involving scripture in the process of pondering is a crucial step. It connects us with Heaven and the powers available through that connection. All too often we tend to approach our scripture reading as a task that needs to be completed quickly so that we can move on to other studies or activities. It is as though we have a checklist in our heads and daily scripture reading is merely one more box to be ticked. Perhaps we have a hurried and undisciplined scripture study.  From personal experience, I know that my learning from the scriptures is greatly enhanced if I slow down and think deeply upon what I am reading. As an example, when I read the Book of Mormon I like to ask myself questions as I am reading. Knowing that this book was written for our day, I ask, “what application does this scripture have for me?” or, “why did a loving Heavenly Father include this verse or story among others that were not included?” And, “What am I to learn from this?” Asking these questions is how I “liken all scripture unto [myself]” (1 Nephi 19:23,24). I even like to insert myself into the stories of the Book of Mormon and wonder how I would have responded if I had been present. Would I have murmured like Laman and Lemuel or moved forward with faith like Nephi, Sam and Jacob? Would I have lamented the breaking of Nephi’s bow or been a problem solver and fashion a new bow and arrow to provide my family?” Would I have helped Nephi build a ship, or mocked him for thinking that he could do so? The questions truly go on and on.

Slowing down and thinking more deeply about what I am reading has helped me develop a greater ability to ponder. Recently, I have been focusing my daily Book of Mormon study on a specific Christ-like attribute that I would like to obtain. I am finding that by reading deliberately and with a specific purpose rather than a goal to just “finish,” I am seeing the familiar passages of the Book of Mormon with new eyes. I am seeing and understanding things that I have not seen nor understood before. By seeing new things, it is helping me think more deeply about the doctrine and principles being taught, which then leads me to greater insights on how to apply what I am learning in my daily life. All of this is hopefully, helping me to develop attributes of Jesus Christ which will help me to more fully know Him and his character.

President Howard W. Hunter counseled us this way, “We should not be haphazard in our reading but rather develop a systematic plan for study. There are some who read to a schedule of a number of pages or a set number of chapters each day or week. This may be perfectly justifiable and may be enjoyable if one is reading for pleasure, but it does not constitute meaningful study. It is better to have a set amount of time to give scriptural study each day than to have a set amount of chapters to read. Sometimes we find that the study of a single verse will occupy the whole time” (Howard W. Hunter, “Reading the Scriptures,” Ensign, Nov. 1979, 64). Have you ever had the experience of spending your whole scripture study on just one verse? Perhaps that is difficult to imagine, but as you develop the gift of pondering you will have such experiences from time to time and it will be most gratifying.

The third step used by President Joseph F. Smith was to reflect upon the teachings and doctrine of God. In this case it was the atonement of Jesus Christ. Is there any topic more important to truly think deeply about than the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ? I know that there is much that we cannot understand about this greatest event in history, but we can certainly come to know Him and more fully appreciate the selfless sacrifice of our Savior by reflecting and thinking deeply about what He has done for us. Perhaps you can begin to practice pondering during your weekly sacrament meetings when you will sit in a room and hear scripture in the form of the prayers offered over the emblematic bread and water and then reflect upon the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Learning to develop the gift of pondering will truly enhance your Sabbath day experience and bring deeper meaning to the sacred ordinance of the sacrament.

The young boy, Joseph Smith, also teaches us the importance of reflecting on scripture when he shares that he “reflected on [the powerful words in James 1:5] again, and again” (Joseph Smith—History 1:12).

The fourth step is to engage. President Smith’s use of this word furtherer teaches us that pondering is not a passive activity. The word engage is a word of affirmative action. We must engage our minds in the process to gain its accompanying power and benefits. You will notice that while he was “engaged,” his mind “reverted,” (Doctrine & Covenants 138:5) or returned, to the writings of Peter. Oftentimes when we ponder we are led to other scripture that helps answer, deepen, or clarify our thoughts and questions. “Reverting” or being lead to other scripture, or reflections on sacred things should not be confused with wandering. As we learn to effectively ponder, we will often times be directed to other doctrines and principles that build upon each other. This is part of learning “line upon line, precept upon precept” (2 Nephi 28:30) which is spoken of so many times in the scriptures. It is through this process that we bring the gospel of Jesus Christ more deeply into our hearts thereby deepening our conversion.

So, in review what do we learn from President Smith’s experience about the process of pondering?

First, we sit in our room. We need to prepare a quiet place free from distractions.

Second, we read scripture with the desire to learn from them, rather than to just finish, by thinking deeply about what we are reading.

Third, we reflect upon what we have read and think about it again and again

And, fourth, we engage our minds in an active process.

Now, what then, is the power that comes from this process? Again, we turn to President Smith’s experience where he shares that “as [he] pondered over the things which are written [in scripture], the eyes of [his] understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon [him],” (Doctrine & Covenants 138:11) and he received revelation. Clearly, the power that comes from pondering is the power to receive revelation. (It should be noted, that as President of the Church, Joseph F. Smith received revelation for the Church and the world on that day. Our revelation will be appropriately limited to the sphere of our area of assigned stewardship, whether it be personal, family or our own callings) (Doctrine & Covenants 28:2,7). As Elder Ashton taught, “By pondering, we give the Spirit an opportunity to impress and direct…If we use the gift to ponder we can take [the] eternal truths [in the scriptures] and realize [through personal revelation] how we can incorporate them in our daily lives” (Marvin J. Ashton, October 1987 General Conference, “There are Many Gifts”).

While pondering, Joseph F. Smith received timely and comforting revelation for the Church and the world when he saw the great vision concerning the Savior’s visit to the spirits of the dead while His body was yet in the tomb. (To more fully understand the importance of this revelation at this time, it should be noted that World War I was raging, and the influenza epidemic had started to spread across the land. Many families were mourning the loss of loved ones, including President Smith who, ill himself, suffered the loss of his eldest son earlier in the year to an illness)( Robert L. Millet, “The Vision of the Redemption of the Dead (D&C 138),” in Sperry Symposium Classics: The Doctrine and Covenants ). In this vision, the prophet saw “an innumerable company of the spirits of the just who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality” (Doctrine & Covenants 138:12). He saw “Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and father of all, and our glorious mother Eve with her many faithful daughters” (Doctrine & Covenants 138:38,39). He saw Noah (Doctrine & Covenants 138:41), Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses (Doctrine & Covenants 138:4) and other prophets of the Old Testament. He saw the prophets of the restoration—Joseph and Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff (Doctrine & Covenants 138:53). And, perhaps, most comfortingly given the time in which this vision was given, he “beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance. . ., among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead” (Doctrine & Covenants 138:57).

In chapter 11 of First Nephi, after Nephi “sat pondering,” (1 Nephi 11:1) he was shown not only the dream that his father saw, but also learned the meaning of the symbolic elements in the dream. He was also shown the condescension of God the Father and God, the Son through the birth of Jesus Christ to a “virgin [who] was exceedingly fair” (1 Nephi 11:13, 16-18, 26). He saw the ministry of John the Baptist and the baptism of Jesus (1 Nephi 11:27). He saw the discovery of the promised land (1 Nephi 13:12). The coming forth of the Bible (1 Nephi 20-28), the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 13:34,35), and “other books” (1 Nephi 13:39). The list of what Nephi saw goes on and on, all because he “was desirous also that he might see, and hear and know of” (1 Nephi 10:17) the things which is father saw,” so, he “sat pondering” (1 Nephi 11:1) in his heart. Is it no wonder that we sing the words, “To Nephi, Seer of olden time, A vision came from God” (“The Iron Rod,” Hymns, no. 274)?

We see that same power of revelation descending upon Helaman’s son Nephi as recorded in Helaman chapter 10. This is after Nephi correctly revealed that the chief judge had just been murdered by his own brother at the judgment-seat (Helaman 8:27). Nephi, perhaps, marveling over what was revealed to him, “went his way towards his own house, pondering upon the things which the Lord had shown unto him” (Helaman 10:2). “. . .As he was thus pondering in his heart, behold, a voice came unto him saying: Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou has done…” (Helaman 10:3,4). After having been praised of God for his courage and steadiness and for his loyalty in keeping the commandments, he is given this personal promise, “ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence and destruction.” (Helaman 10:6) And even more significantly, he was given “power that whatsoever ye shall seal on the earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Helaman 10:7). In addition to the revelation received, this Nephi was also given other powers of God, that became known to him only after he was ponding in his heart.

One final scriptural example of the power of pondering. This example comes through the Prophet Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon. While Joseph and Sydney were “doing the work of translation” of the Bible in the fifth chapter, twenty-ninth verse of John which speaks of the resurrection of the dead, they marveled (Doctrine & Covenants 76:15-18). And then it reads, “while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about. And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fullness” (Doctrine & Covenants 76:19, 20). They were subsequently shown the resurrection of the just and unjust, the redeeming power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, the plight of Lucifer and those who follow him, and then the glory of the celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdoms and those who would attain each (Doctrine & Covenants 76). All was revealed because they pondered or meditated over scripture.

My dear brothers and sisters, while these are examples of prophets, please know that the same power of revelation is available to you. You truly can draw upon the powers of heaven. The examples that I shared are certainly instances of extraordinary heavenly visions and communications with heaven-sent messengers. I bear witness that when needed, God still can communicate in such a miraculous way. However, most often that communication, that power of revelation, comes as described in the Doctrine and Covenants where it reads, “I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, . . .behold, this is the spirit of revelation” (Doctrine & Covenants 8:2, 3). Elder Neal A. Maxwell, commenting on both the means and availability of revelation to us said, “a few of you may still feel that revelation consists only of supernal events like the First Vision, or that revelation is out of your reach, or that it is something so extraordinary that a seemingly ordinary person is not entitled thereto. But you are entitled” (Neal A Maxwell, “Revelation,” Worldwide Leadership Training, Jan. 2003, 5.).

With all of the important life decisions that are ahead of you, surely you feel the need for personal revelation. You may not be given a vision of the eternities, but you will have the Holy Ghost speak “peace to your mind” (Doctrine and Covenants 6:23), or “cause that your bosom shall burn within you” (Doctrine and Covenants 9:8). As you learn to ponder over sacred things you will have your heart and mind open to greater truths of the gospel. It will take practice and patience, but I can bear personal witness that pondering will lead to revelation. This I know to be true for as I have sat in my room and pondered on many occasions, the Spirit has spoken peace to my soul and opened the eyes of my understanding. These personal revelations have been a blessing to me personally, to my family, and to those whom I have had stewardship over.

After Jesus taught the Nephites gathered at the temple in Bountiful, he admonished them to, “go ye unto your homes and ponder upon the things which I have said, and ask the Father, in my name, that ye may understand” (3 Nephi 17:3). And, then, Moroni in his final words to us pleads, “behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, …ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men…and ponder it in your hearts” (Moroni 10:3). The admonition to ponder was given to all who gathered at the temple and to all who read the Book of Mormon. The invitation is to all men, women, and even children. Anyone who has come to know, even in the smallest degree, that the Book of Mormon is true, has received revelation. Personal revelation is the common ingredient found in every testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

I bear you my witness that the Church is led by the power of revelation today. It is upon this rock that the Church is built. I bear you my witness that there are prophets, seers and revelators on earth today and that President Thomas S. Monson is chief among them. He is the senior apostle on the earth and is authorized to hold and exercise all the keys of the priesthood. I bear witness that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God. I know that after reading and reflecting on scripture he was prompted to enter a grove of trees that later we would call “sacred” and that there he saw God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. I know that this was the first of many revelations received by him. I know the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. The Holy Spirit has revealed this to me as I have read and pondered over its words. And finally, I bear you my witness that Jesus Christ lives. He is our Savior and Redeemer. This I know. This, too, has been revealed to me by the power of the Holy Ghost. My witness can be your witness through the power of revelation that will come to you when you ponder over sacred things. Of these things I testify, in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why do you classify it as an "abject failure"? I wouldn't. 

They never professed to be the sole source of all revealed truth and edifying spiritual principles, or that we can't spiritually benefit and learn new useful skills from searching out the best books from external sources.  Quite the contrary, actually.  

I should have included the 🙃. We have copious scriptural, historical, and instructive teachings about pondering and meditation. It seems to me that if our process can result in angelic visitations, personal revelations, or Section 138 of the D&C, it must be pretty good. Perhaps others could learn from us?

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

There are audiotapes out there that do this- If someone DID this, with an LDS twist, it would be useful?

Would folks think someone is trying to hypnotize/ brainwash them?

I think it would have to come from "The Church" for it to work.  Part of the problem is that in LDS culture "meditate" means to "think hard" about say a scripture, which is NOT the objective in the kind of meditation we are talking about.

Mindfulness is about NOT thinking but observing your thoughts as they float on by. It's about freeing oneself from unwanted thoughts.

I agree that unless it comes from "the Church" it probably wont find much success.  Bernard Gui is the perfect example of skepticism of spiritual principles taught outside the church.  Skepticism is healthy, but the idea that unless the prophets reveal it or teach it, it is not worth while spiritually, is something I don't understand and is actually contrary to what the prophets have taught. 

I agree that meditation means something different in our culture. 

I don't think any church leader or prophet would object to the principles taught in mindfulness meditation, or deny that they can be useful in enhancing our awareness of and attention to God in our daily lives.   For whatever reason, people need approval from prophets.  It is like an unhealthy spiritual dependency, quite honestly.   For me. the prophets are critical.  They hold the keys and I view them as a springboard to interdependent spiritual growth with God. 

Several have attempted to introduce meditation to Mormonism with varying degrees of success.  As you might guess, "there is an app for that":

https://deseretbook.com/p/power-of-stillness-mindful-living-for-latter-day-saints-ppr?variant_id=176725-paperback

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/faithful-meditation?lang=eng

https://www.deseret.com/2017/7/6/20615478/what-a-mormon-doing-buddhist-meditation-has-to-do-with-the-future-of-faith

https://www.ldsliving.com/be-still-finding-inner-peace-and-a-deeper-connection-to-christ-through-meditation/s/75731

https://mormonlifehacker.com/how-meditate/

https://thirdhour.org/blog/life/life-hacks/health-beauty/meditation-mormons-together/

I haven't look much into these, so I can't vouch for them, but there has been an attempt.  I think the rising generation will be more open to it.  
 

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I should have included the 🙃. We have copious scriptural, historical, and instructive teachings about pondering and meditation. It seems to me that if our process can result in angelic visitations, revelations, or Section 138 of the D&C, it must be pretty good. Perhaps others could learn from us?

No doubt that others can learn from us.   We have a lot to offer, including the ineffable gift of the Holy Ghost.  But, do you honestly believe that one can't find spiritually enhancing principles and practices not found in our Church?  It is as if you are discounting my own personal spiritual experience without even understanding it.  Quite frankly, God led me to meditation. So...there is that.      

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Seek and ye shall find. 
 

Granted, Bro Call is not a General Authority.

And this somehow is equivalent to the centuries old mystic traditions, practices, teachings, and skills taught in ancient mystic traditions of Buddhism and from early church fathers?

If that is enough for you, so be it, but you are missing out on a feast that you are not even aware of. 

[Bernard Gui]

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

And this somehow is equivalent to the centuries old mystic traditions, practices, teachings, and skills taught in ancient mystic traditions of Buddhism and from early church fathers?

If that is enough for you, so be it, but you are missing out on a feast that you are not even aware of. 

I am very aware of several processes of meditation, thank you. 
 

Quote

No doubt that others can learn from us.   We have a lot to offer, including the ineffable gift of the Holy Ghost.  But, do you honestly believe that one can't find spiritually enhancing principles and practices not found in our Church?  It is as if you are discounting my own personal spiritual experience without even understanding it.  Quite frankly, God led me to meditation. So...there is that.  

I love qtye question “do you honestly believe….?” No, I prefer to dishonestly believe. 🙃Of course we can learn from others. But it sounds like you are the one calling the LDS practice of meditation an abject failure:
 

Quote

If you tell just about any random Latter-day Saint to sit still and listen for 20 minutes, twice daily, I think most would go bat crazy within a week and give up without any practical skills of meditation.  They don't even know what they are missing out on, because they don't know how to listen at that level.  It simply is not taught in our church how to practically deal with distractions of the mind, etc. and how to focus attention "with an eye single to God".  We give lip service to passages like "be still and know that I am God", but I highly doubt that many truly have any advanced skills in being still, especially in their mind…  

There is absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging that other faith traditions have beneficial or advanced practices, teachings, and even truths, which we lack in Mormonism.  I have studied both, and I can tell you that there is no comparison in terms of formalized teachings/practices. 

Two things…serious comments. 

1. This seems to be very important to you. I’m glad God led you to it. That’s great. Keep it up. 
2. Since you have identified what you adamantly believe is a very significant deficit in LDS religious practices, it seems that one should enlighten the Brethren so the Church as a whole can benefit from your personal experience. 

I’m more of a spontaneous guy. It is my practice to sit in silence in a natural setting, expel all thoughts the best I can, and simply listen to the sounds of nature. The benefits are astounding. Also, listening for an hour or two to a Mahler, Brahms, or Beethoven symphony in a quiet darkened room with a superb set of headphones is mightily uplifting. You should try it. You don’t know what you are missing if you don’t know his 10 symphonies intimately. If you can sit still for 90 minutes, I would recommend the Fifth as a wonderful starting point. Don’t watch the video, just listen. Earphones, not earbuds. Immerse yourself in the sound. Lose your self in the wonder of it. If 90 minutes is too much, just find a recording of the Adagietto.
 

 

But this doesn’t compare at all with the times I have actually communed with the Spirit...the still, small, voice. I had one of those just the other day as I pondered the miraculous return of our prodigal son. I would not trade that moment for all the formalized processes in the world. To each his own. I have my own ways as do you, thank you.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Seek and ye shall find. 
 

Granted, Bro Call is not a General Authority.

These are the takeaways of what Mormon "meditation" is, from the talk:

Quote

pondering is deeper than regular thought 

Quote

It requires more focus and effort. It is active, not passive, thought.

Not only is this very vague without any practical examples of what "deeper than regular thought" even means or how to practice it, but it is all about actively "thinking" very deeply about a subject.  This is the opposite of what mindfulness meditation is, which is about observing and witnessing, or listening.  Actively thinking is literally the opposite of what we are talking about - it is the antithesis of mindfulness.   While deep thinking/pondering certainly has its place and cab be very useful tool which can lead to revelation, it is not what I am talking about.  

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, Navidad said:

If Pogi and Bernard, two whom I respect highly, disagree on such a core concept, which is someone like me to understand is the true  LDS position? Do you, like others wonder why I keep asking?

Navidad, we all have opinions based on different experiences. None of us, not even Mennonites, has become mature - attaining the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. I reckon that won’t happen in this life. I’m not sure what you expect. 🙂

Quote

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

 

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

These are the takeaways of what Mormon "meditation" is, from the talk:

Not only is this very vague without any practical examples of what "deeper than regular thought" even means or how to practice it, but it is all about actively "thinking" very deeply about a subject.  This is the opposite of what mindfulness meditation is, which is about observing and witnessing, or listening.  Actively thinking is literally the opposite of what we are talking about - it is the antithesis of mindfulness.   While deep thinking/pondering certainly has its place and cab be very useful tool which can lead to revelation, it is not what I am talking about.  

Seriously, if this is so important to you, if hearing the still, small, voice is not sufficient, it seems it would be imperative to write a letter or an article and set the Church on the enlightened path.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I am very aware of several processes of meditation, thank you. 
 

Of course we can learn from others. But it sounds like you are the one calling the LDS practice of meditation an abject failure:
 

Two things…serious comments. 

1. This seems to be very important to you. I’m glad God led you to it. That’s great. Keep it up. 
2. Since you have identified what you adamantly believe is a very significant deficit in LDS religious practices, it seems that one should enlighten the Brethren so the Church as a whole can benefit from your personal experience. 

I’m more of a spontaneous guy. It is my practice to sit in silence in a natural setting, expel all thoughts the best I can, and simply listen to the sounds of nature. The benefits are astounding. Also, listening for an hour or two to a Mahler, Brahms, or Beethoven symphony in a quiet darkened room with a superb set of headphones is mightily uplifting. You should try it. You don’t know what you are missing if you don’t know his 10 symphonies intimately. If you can sit still for 90 minutes, I would recommend the Fifth as a wonderful starting point. Don’t watch the video, just listen. Earphones, not earbuds. Immerse yourself in the sound. Lose your self in the wonder of it. If 90 minutes is too much, just find a recording of the Adagietto.

But this doesn’t compare at all with the times I have actually communed with the Spirit...the still, small, voice. I had one of those just the other day as I pondered the miraculous return of our prodigal son. I would not trade that moment for all the formalized processes in the world. To each his own. I have my own ways as do you, thank you.

Bernard, with respect, you are misunderstanding me if you think I am suggesting any "abject failure" in what the prophets teach.  I thought I already made that clear.  I am not joking when I say that.   I simply think that there are principles taught in other traditions which can enhance our spirituality which are not taught in our Church.   Unless you think that our faith is the sole source of all that is spiritually good, and that no good principles can be found elsewhere that is not taught in our church, then I don't see this as a failure.  That was never the purpose of the church to be all things for all people.  There are other sources of good too.  We are the sole source of the keys and saving ordinances - lets' not pretend like we are the sole source, or best source, of everything else too.  No failure, because that was never the claim or the purpose of the church. 

To address your two points,

1.  Thank you.

2. I don't think it would be wise for the church to try and be the spiritual everything for everybody.  That is not the mission or purpose of the church.  I don't think it an abject failure of the church if other traditions which have dedicated their practice of honing skills of meditation over thousands of years are more advanced than us in that particular area.  I don't think the brethren need to be corrected.  They have NEVER suggested that such teachings and principles are unholy, unvirtuous, or unworthy of pursuit, so they haven't failed in anything.  I think we personally and individually fail ourselves if we look to the church as the sole source of all that is good. So, it is not the church leaders who need to be corrected, as they have counseled us to seek for the good exteriorly, it is the members who pass up an opportunity to feast because it wasn't a prophet who directed them to the feast.     

Edited April 12, 2022 by pogi