Elder Jörg Klebingat's Comments on Moral Relativism

[The Nehor]

Quite honestly I suspect they don’t teach things of this nature because it just isn’t universal. Imagine that next conference the Prophet talks about techniques for meditation to help us communicate with God. Some would use and have great success. Some would try it and find nothing because the Holy Ghost doesn’t communicate with them in the same way, and some would find that their attempts to use the techniques fail due to being unable to make the technique work at all for them and some of them start wondering what is wrong with them and why the counsel of the prophet doesn’t work for them. What sins did I commit? Am I a child of Perdition? Sounds reasonable if communication with God doesn’t work for me. And so on.

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Quite honestly I suspect they don’t teach things of this nature because it just isn’t universal. Imagine that next conference the Prophet talks about techniques for meditation to help us communicate with God. Some would use and have great success. Some would try it and find nothing because the Holy Ghost doesn’t communicate with them in the same way, and some would find that their attempts to use the techniques fail due to being unable to make the technique work at all for them and some of them start wondering what is wrong with them and why the counsel of the prophet doesn’t work for them. What sins did I commit? Am I a child of Perdition? Sounds reasonable if communication with God doesn’t work for me. And so on.

I have always viewed the prophets role as primarily that of the key-holder to provide all necessary saving ordinances.  They generally teach the basic primary principles and I view them as a sturdy and safe launching board to deeper personal spiritual revelation and insight, grounded in the basic primary principles.  I don't think they were ever intended to be the sole source of spiritual knowledge and guidance.  I think those who are afraid to feast outside of the church are truly missing out.  Armed with the basic guiding principles, there is so much good and beauty and edification out there.  I agree with you that meditation may not be for everyone, but to hold ourselves back because a prophet didn't directly direct us to any specific trough is unfortunate, I think.   

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

techniques fail due to being unable to make the technique work at all for them

I used to do Yoga and relaxation techniques and had to stop because my brain processes attempts to relax as a signal it is time to move.  Hard to focus my mind when my muscles were feeling like a rubber that would snap if I didn’t move or it the ants started crawling under my skin or the electrical shocks kicked off.  Fun times.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Navidad, we all have opinions based on different experiences. None of us, not even Mennonites, has become mature - attaining the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. I reckon that won’t happen in this life. I’m not sure what you expect. 🙂

 

My response was in the context of the fact that my continual questions upset folks. When I am trying to figure out what the LDS church teaches, I really get confused when polar opposite answers, opinions, or beliefs seem to emanate from faithful and mature Saints who are apparently in good standing with the church. I tend to look at that which some of you here on this forum say as "gospel." Some also just seem to enjoy the back and forth; those I am not inclined to worry about.

I enjoy reading the posts and all of your banter back and forth, but then I think - hmmm did I just come away from that with the church's no kidding real live position? So then I ask questions and apparently really irritate folks to the point they try and figure out my pathology that causes me to ask so many questions. If I have an obsession it is an over the top need to know and understand things that I take an interest in. No denying that. Right now I am on an "all things Mormon (broad use), Salafism, and Pentecostal kick. I am none of them  so I must study and ask questions. The LDS faith, perhaps next to the various schools of Islam, is the most complicated belief system I have encountered in my life's journey.

As soon as I finish this response I will complete reading a wonderful study on the Illorin wars of western and southwestern Nigeria from the 1830s and the development of the Sokoto Caliphate. Why am I doing that? Because I don't know much about that place and time period. So now I want to understand all the ins and outs of those, largely tribal and religious conflicts in that long ago and far off place (the same time period as the development of the LDS church interestingly enough). I spent weeks trying to figure out everything I could about the little Baptist church on the Fishing River where Zion's Camp took shelter during the huge rainstorm they encountered in Missouri. I wrote up a presentation on it that has been received very well. This isolated episode even got a brief mention in volume one of The Saints! Half of the charter members of that church were slaves of the other half. That was so interesting that it could have happened in a Primitive Baptist church in Missouri in the 1830s! Thanks for your patience with me. Take care.

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, Navidad said:

My response was in the context of the fact that my continual questions upset folks. When I am trying to figure out what the LDS church teaches, I really get confused when polar opposite answers, opinions, or beliefs seem to emanate from faithful and mature Saints who are apparently in good standing with the church. I tend to look at that which some of you here on this forum say as "gospel." Some also just seem to enjoy the back and forth; those I am not inclined to worry about.

I enjoy reading the posts and all of your banter back and forth, but then I think - hmmm did I just come away from that with the church's no kidding real live position? So then I ask questions and apparently really irritate folks to the point they try and figure out my pathology that causes me to ask so many questions. If I have an obsession it is an over the top need to know and understand things that I take an interest in. No denying that. Right now I am on an "all things Mormon (broad use), Salafism, and Pentecostal kick. I am none of them  so I must study and ask questions. The LDS faith, perhaps next to the various schools of Islam, is the most complicated belief system I have encountered in my life's journey.

As soon as I finish this response I will complete reading a wonderful study on the Illorin wars of western and southwestern Nigeria from the 1830s and the development of the Sokoto Caliphate. Why am I doing that? Because I don't know much about that place and time period. So now I want to understand all the ins and outs of those, largely tribal and religious conflicts in that long ago and far off place (the same time period as the development of the LDS church interestingly enough). I spent weeks trying to figure out everything I could about the little Baptist church on the Fishing River where Zion's Camp took shelter during the huge rainstorm they encountered in Missouri. I wrote up a presentation on it that has been received very well. This isolated episode even got a brief mention in volume one of The Saints! Half of the charter members of that church were slaves of the other half. That was so interesting that it could have happened in a Primitive Baptist church in Missouri in the 1830s! Thanks for your patience with me. Take care.

It can be exasperating, no? That’s why as I get older I think I should heed the advice the great prophet Alma gave to the Nephite priests when he ordained them…

Quote

Yea, even he commanded them that they should preach nothing save it were repentance and faith on the Lord, who had redeemed his people…And he commanded them that there should be no contention one with another, but that they should look forward with one eye, having one faith and one baptism, having their hearts knit together in unity and in love one towards another. And thus he commanded them to preach. And thus they became the children of God.

Really, that’s the sum of everything, no? I think we would all do better if we stuck like  taffy on a molar to those words.

Navidad, you are in the running for The Most Interesting Man in the World title. Someday I would like to share a tall glass of horchata with you. If you haven’t yet, you should read up on the Cane Creek Massacre, a little-known but compelling event in LDS missionary history. It would make a great movie with Sam Elliott as BH Roberts.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Bernard, with respect, you are misunderstanding me if you think I am suggesting any "abject failure" in what the prophets teach.  I thought I already made that clear.  I am not joking when I say that.   I simply think that there are principles taught in other traditions which can enhance our spirituality which are not taught in our Church.   Unless you think that our faith is the sole source of all that is spiritually good, and that no good principles can be found elsewhere that is not taught in our church, then I don't see this as a failure.  That was never the purpose of the church to be all things for all people.  There are other sources of good too.  We are the sole source of the keys and saving ordinances - lets' not pretend like we are the sole source, or best source, of everything else too.  No failure, because that was never the claim or the purpose of the church. 

To address your two points,

1.  Thank you.

2. I don't think it would be wise for the church to try and be the spiritual everything for everybody.  That is not the mission or purpose of the church.  I don't think it an abject failure of the church if other traditions which have dedicated their practice of honing skills of meditation over thousands of years are more advanced than us in that particular area.  I don't think the brethren need to be corrected.  They have NEVER suggested that such teachings and principles are unholy, unvirtuous, or unworthy of pursuit, so they haven't failed in anything.  I think we personally and individually fail ourselves if we look to the church as the sole source of all that is good. So, it is not the church leaders who need to be corrected, as they have counseled us to seek for the good exteriorly, it is the members who pass up an opportunity to feast because it wasn't a prophet who directed them to the feast.     

Well, no, you didn’t make that clear at all. But we’ve been through that. 

You had me humming along there until you got in that last dig. Have a great day! 🙂

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

duplicate

Edited April 12, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, no, you didn’t make that clear at all.

You had me going there until you got in that last dig. Have a great day! 🙂

Perhaps I should have included the "🙃".  Apparently that makes all digs ok somehow. 

 I thought I made it crystal clear that I would not personally classify it as an "abject failure", and therefore my words should not be interpreted that way.

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Why do you classify it as an "abject failure"? I wouldn't. 

They never professed to be the sole source of all revealed truth and edifying spiritual principles, or that we can't spiritually benefit and learn new useful skills from searching out the best books from external sources.  Quite the contrary, actually.  

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I thought I made it crystal clear that I would not personally classify it as an "abject failure", and therefore my words should not be interpreted that way.

How else is one to understand “It simply is not taught in our church how to practically deal with distractions of the mind, etc. and how to focus attention ‘with an eye single to God’.  We give lip service to passages like ‘be still and know that I am God’, but I highly doubt that many truly have any advanced skills in being still, especially in their mind.”

How do you know what “many” do? It’s great that you have personally developed such wonderfully advanced skills. Would you please teach them to the unenlightened masses of the Church whose eyes are not single to the glory of God and who cannot sit still long enough to hear his words?

Quote

Perhaps I should have included the "🙃".  Apparently that makes all digs ok somehow.

Perhaps. 

[Bernard Gui]

Bernard has left the building. My apologies for bringing contention.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

How else is one to understand “It simply is not taught in our church how to practically deal with distractions of the mind, etc. and how to focus attention ‘with an eye single to God’.  We give lip service to passages like ‘be still and know that I am God’, but I highly doubt that many truly have any advanced skills in being still, especially in their mind.”

Bernard, I have already explained how else you can understand it.  You seem unwilling to give me the benefit of the doubt or really try to understand my point of view and explanation.  Oh well. 

6 hours ago, pogi said:

Bernard, with respect, you are misunderstanding me if you think I am suggesting any "abject failure" in what the prophets teach.  I thought I already made that clear.  I am not joking when I say that.   I simply think that there are principles taught in other traditions which can enhance our spirituality which are not taught in our Church.   Unless you think that our faith is the sole source of all that is spiritually good, and that no good principles can be found elsewhere that is not taught in our church, then I don't see this as a failure.  That was never the purpose of the church to be all things for all people.  There are other sources of good too.  We are the sole source of the keys and saving ordinances - lets' not pretend like we are the sole source, or best source, of everything else too.  No failure, because that was never the claim or the purpose of the church. 

To address your two points,

1.  Thank you.

2. I don't think it would be wise for the church to try and be the spiritual everything for everybody.  That is not the mission or purpose of the church.  I don't think it an abject failure of the church if other traditions which have dedicated their practice of honing skills of meditation over thousands of years are more advanced than us in that particular area.  I don't think the brethren need to be corrected.  They have NEVER suggested that such teachings and principles are unholy, unvirtuous, or unworthy of pursuit, so they haven't failed in anything.  I think we personally and individually fail ourselves if we look to the church as the sole source of all that is good. So, it is not the church leaders who need to be corrected, as they have counseled us to seek for the good exteriorly, it is the members who pass up an opportunity to feast because it wasn't a prophet who directed them to the feast.     

I honestly don't know why or how you could characterize anything I have said as an abject failure of our church leaders.   Just because other traditions do some things better than we do or are more advanced than we are in specific areas, doesn't make our leaders a failure ESPECIALLY when they explicitly encourage us to go out and find truth everywhere from other traditions and bring it home to Mormonism (which implies it is not found here).  

The practical principles as taught in other traditions of how to deal with random and/or distracted thoughts when trying to listen to God (or the "still small voice" as described in Buddhism) are not found in Mormonism.  I am honestly really confused as to why you think they are, or why you think we are failures if they are not.  That kind of meditation simply is not our practice or tradition.  We don't have or teach those skills.  I don't know how to make this more clear.  There are many ways in which one can keep an eye single to God, that can be interpreted and applied in lots of different ways, and most are probably right, but I thought it was obvious that I was speaking of meditative practices and skills of attention taught elsewhere that can't be found in Mormonism.  They are good and beneficial practices despite not being taught by church leaders.  Nothing wrong with the fact that they don't teach it either.   As I said, our mission is not to be equivalent or better than all other faith traditions in every principle, practice, or teaching.  I have researched meditative practices from the Christian perspective of Catholicism, different forms from Buddhism, and also from Hinduism.  All I was trying to say is that there are many good principles taught in how to deal with distracted thoughts that are not taught in Mormonism.  There are many principles and practices of attention that are not taught in Mormonism.  These are foreign practices and skills to Mormons who only look within Mormonism for guidance.  I know this because I am a Mormon and can contrast the different teachings. 

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you know what “many” do? 

I didn't say "I know", I said "I highly doubt".  Why do I highly doubt it?  Because of my personal experience as a Mormon practicing meditation and sharing my experiences with fellow Mormons and teaching many about it.  Most Mormons I talk to are clueless about meditation as taught in other disciplines.  Most say (as in speak vocally or in their mind), their prayers.  I don't know of any untrained in meditation who actually give time to do nothing but listen in their prayers, let alone practice listening for 20 minutes twice daily.  I am not saying this to diss members.  They don't know what they don't know.  I can't fault them.  They have busy lives and other focuses.  They can be and are enriched in other ways.  If anyone ever wants to learn I am happy to teach them.

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you please teach them to the unenlightened masses of the Church whose eyes are not single to the glory of God and who cannot sit still long enough to hear his words?

You forgot to use the 🙃again.

I do try to teach.  Most don't want to listen, honestly.  If they are ever ready, they know where to find me.  I am not holier than thou about it, but I do think I have a special skill that I have learned from other traditions that I am confident others could spiritually benefit from.   

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I would mostly agree except for the “think hard” part. I believe “thinking hard” could be the antithesis to listening to the Spirit, as in this from Elder Eyring. I think it is a good description of what the Prophets mean by ponder or meditate, as in the OP talk by Elder Klebingat.

IMO.

Yes yes yes.

And it IS real. It is the MOST real anything can be on this side.

There is no infiltration by the brain, it is direct reality.

I went to the temple today thinking of the Veil/mirror /through the glass darkly/world in which we live (dang, if we spoke German we could make a long word for it) and had some powerful IN-Sights about that.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Quite honestly I suspect they don’t teach things of this nature because it just isn’t universal. Imagine that next conference the Prophet talks about techniques for meditation to help us communicate with God. Some would use and have great success. Some would try it and find nothing because the Holy Ghost doesn’t communicate with them in the same way, and some would find that their attempts to use the techniques fail due to being unable to make the technique work at all for them and some of them start wondering what is wrong with them and why the counsel of the prophet doesn’t work for them. What sins did I commit? Am I a child of Perdition? Sounds reasonable if communication with God doesn’t work for me. And so on.

Meditation is not the Holy Ghost, it is training for learning how to listen

[mfbukowski]

On 4/11/2022 at 10:31 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps we are talking past each other. I am referring to Alma 12. 

Yep.

I think you guys are looking at two sides of the same coin; yin produces yang. It's a dialectical process. This stuff is beyond linguistic characterization.

Nothing happens without both the hammer and nail, picking one is not a sure sign.  It takes two.

Edited April 13, 2022 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you please teach them to the unenlightened masses of the Church whose eyes are not single to the glory of God and who cannot sit still long enough to hear his words?

I don't know if I made myself clear about this comment.  I don't know if you are just saying this in jest or if your truly think I feel this way, and that is bothering me.   I hope you know me well enough by now that I think our church provides the ways and means to to live with an eye single to the glory of God and to hear his words. All I was suggesting is that other traditions provide additional resources not found in our church which have been a catalyst for me, and can be a catalyst in others, in enhancing ability to listen and be still with an eye single to God and hear his words.  It was a life changing difference and experience for me personally.  I found healing from addiction through it, and it saved my marriage.  It changed my life for the better and I found a peace in God that I have never before experienced.  I will forever be grateful for the writings and teaching about contemplative prayer in Catholicism and also mindfulness meditation in Buddhism.  And I will be forever grateful for prophets who encourage us to seek for light and truth not taught in Mormonism.  I see these things as addendums to the core principles taught in Mormonism.  There is much that Mormons can be enlightened by through looking in other sources outside our church.  That is not a dig on our church or its leaders.  We all could benefit from more enlightenment from external sources.    

[SkyRock]

I have studied a lot of traditions and religions outside of the church.   All true things are part of the whole and we are commanded to seek.

Over my lifetime, I have found great wisdom from religious leaders and texts from around the world.   I never looked in order to find a "new" faith, but to add to my understanding. 

Mindfulness mediation is excellent.   And easy.   Download an app and try it out.  It isn't the same as pondering and mediating on a topic.   It will help people use available tools to become more relaxed.  And once we are more relaxed, more at peace, we can then ponder the things of God and life in a better fashion.

[mfbukowski]

Edit. 

A beatles quote is the last thing we need while discussing meditation in church context.

Why is that?

Edited April 13, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I don't know if I made myself clear about this comment.  I don't know if you are just saying this in jest or if your truly think I feel this way, and that is bothering me.   I hope you know me well enough by now that I think our church provides the ways and means to to live with an eye single to the glory of God and to hear his words. All I was suggesting is that other traditions provide additional resources not found in our church which have been a catalyst for me, and can be a catalyst in others, in enhancing ability to listen and be still with an eye single to God and hear his words.  It was a life changing difference and experience for me personally.  I found healing from addiction through it, and it saved my marriage.  It changed my life for the better and I found a peace in God that I have never before experienced.  I will forever be grateful for the writings and teaching about contemplative prayer in Catholicism and also mindfulness meditation in Buddhism.  And I will be forever grateful for prophets who encourage us to seek for light and truth not taught in Mormonism.  I see these things as addendums to the core principles taught in Mormonism.  There is much that Mormons can be enlightened by through looking in other sources outside our church.  That is not a dig on our church or its leaders.  We all could benefit from more enlightenment from external sources.    

I’m happy for all that has done for you and others I know including our prodigal son. I have found great and life-saving inspiration and solace through meditation with intense prayer and through other than religious means as I explained.
Some of your word choices seemed to demean the Church and it’s leaders, but I now understand that was not your intention. I suggest with mutual respect that we smoke the peace pipe. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Edit. 

A beatles quote is the last thing we need while discussing meditation in church context.

Why is that?

Help me out here. I’m not up on my Beatles quotes. Something about “imagine” maybe? Here’s one I adapted…

Imagine there’s no Twitter

It’s not a heavy task

To read a plain news story

Is not too much to ask

 

Imagine all the people

Lookin for the good

 

Imagine just the facts ma’am

No twisted words are spun

No lists of Twitter comments

I’m sure it can be done

 

Imagine all the people

Sayin words of love

 

Imagine no aggressions

Don’t have to ask you why

No censures, slurs, or curses

We can do it if we try

 

Imagine all the people

Talking normally

 

You may say I'm a dreamer

But I'm not the only one

I hope someday you'll join us

And the world will be as one

[Navidad]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:03 AM, SkyRock said:

 I never looked in order to find a "new" faith, but to add to my understanding. 

Amen! Preach it!