Free agency versus guidance from God

[kimpearson]

A very common phrase in the scriptures and the teachings of the Church is "Let them ask and they shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto them".  We all say prayers asking for guidance.  We also believe in agency.  The Church website defines agency as "Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior".

In my younger years, I felt like God was answering almost all my prayers.  As I have gotten older and really reflected on those answers I thought I was getting from God, I have come to realize that most were just the workings of my own brain, beliefs and knowledge coming to a conclusion that "felt" right.  I interpreted that feeling as God's guidance.  As I realized this and as I worked with so many in faith crisis's, I came to the conclusion that a key factor in a faith crisis is the realization that most of the answers one thought were directly from God, really weren't.  When many realize this they lose all or most of their faith in God.  I haven't lost my faith in God even though I believe God rarely reveals anything directly to anyone.  This is mainly because of 2 or 3 experiences that I still fully believe were revelation directly from God at key moments in my life.  The rest of the time I was making decisions based on things I had learned from scripture, parents, the world and Church leaders that I felt were truth through my exercise of agency to chose what I believe is truth.  I believe this is the light of Christ.  The knowledge comes from God through sources other than direct communication with God and we each with our own intelligence, recognize truth.  Being imperfect human beings, we never are 100% accurate in identifying truth and many times we actually reject a truth and make a decision that we call a sin.  I believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is God's promise to us that as we draw closer to Him through obedience to the covenants we make, the Holy Ghost will in some way I don't fully understand, help our spiritual awareness of truth grow stronger so that we make better and better decisions based on the knowledge we have gained through our own exercise of agency.

On this board I have heard those who state their experience is constant direct revelation from God that guides them in many of their day to day choices.  In priesthood today a new brother described how out of the blue God revealed to him and his wife they needed to move to a new state because of an unexpected job offer.  Last week, many of the testimonies included feelings of direct revelation for many small and quite frankly not that important questions.  We have all heard the stories of lost keys and children's toy's found under direct revelation of God.  I am also sure you are all aware of those who had very difficult choices, problems, sickness, ect. who prayed fervently for days, studied the scriptures and went to the temple and got no guidance.

My question to all of you is what is your thoughts of the balance of agency versus guidance from God.  There has to be a balance between agency and guidance or we would never grow if God gave us guidance on everything.  I have heard many claim that if we do our part and come up with a course of action or decision, God will always indicate whether that is right or wrong.  I can't believe that because by my thought that is the same as if we continued to make, approve or disapprove of every decision a child makes in life from birth to death.  I have seen far to many parents trying to do that and the results are always disastrous.  On the other hand most parents who give some advice to their children raise adults that can live life on their own.  I believe direct guidance from God is very rare, even for prophets.  As I state above, most decisions are entirely our own based on knowledge and beliefs we have accepted as truths and God has no direct part.  This includes the decisions of church leaders, missionaries and members in callings.  This also the reason why people are called who are not worthy.  Why prayers go unanswered.  Why actions are taken that turn out to be just plain wrong in hindsight.  No one exercises agency 100% correct all the time.

[Metis_LDS]

22 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

My question to all of you is what is your thoughts of the balance of agency versus guidance from God.

I am not understanding what you mean.  You are a free agent or you are not.  Oliver Cowdery was still free to leave the Church for a season after all he had experienced.  You can reject anything you want in this life regardless of "guidance" but there are costs.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

A very common phrase in the scriptures and the teachings of the Church is "Let them ask and they shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto them".  We all say prayers asking for guidance.  We also believe in agency.  The Church website defines agency as "Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior".

In my younger years, I felt like God was answering almost all my prayers.  As I have gotten older and really reflected on those answers I thought I was getting from God, I have come to realize that most were just the workings of my own brain, beliefs and knowledge coming to a conclusion that "felt" right.  I interpreted that feeling as God's guidance.  As I realized this and as I worked with so many in faith crisis's, I came to the conclusion that a key factor in a faith crisis is the realization that most of the answers one thought were directly from God, really weren't.  When many realize this they lose all or most of their faith in God.  I haven't lost my faith in God even though I believe God rarely reveals anything directly to anyone.  This is mainly because of 2 or 3 experiences that I still fully believe were revelation directly from God at key moments in my life.  The rest of the time I was making decisions based on things I had learned from scripture, parents, the world and Church leaders that I felt were truth through my exercise of agency to chose what I believe is truth.  I believe this is the light of Christ.  The knowledge comes from God through sources other than direct communication with God and we each with our own intelligence, recognize truth.  Being imperfect human beings, we never are 100% accurate in identifying truth and many times we actually reject a truth and make a decision that we call a sin.  I believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is God's promise to us that as we draw closer to Him through obedience to the covenants we make, the Holy Ghost will in some way I don't fully understand, help our spiritual awareness of truth grow stronger so that we make better and better decisions based on the knowledge we have gained through our own exercise of agency.

On this board I have heard those who state their experience is constant direct revelation from God that guides them in many of their day to day choices.  In priesthood today a new brother described how out of the blue God revealed to him and his wife they needed to move to a new state because of an unexpected job offer.  Last week, many of the testimonies included feelings of direct revelation for many small and quite frankly not that important questions.  We have all heard the stories of lost keys and children's toy's found under direct revelation of God.  I am also sure you are all aware of those who had very difficult choices, problems, sickness, ect. who prayed fervently for days, studied the scriptures and went to the temple and got no guidance.

My question to all of you is what is your thoughts of the balance of agency versus guidance from God.  There has to be a balance between agency and guidance or we would never grow if God gave us guidance on everything.  I have heard many claim that if we do our part and come up with a course of action or decision, God will always indicate whether that is right or wrong.  I can't believe that because by my thought that is the same as if we continued to make, approve or disapprove of every decision a child makes in life from birth to death.  I have seen far to many parents trying to do that and the results are always disastrous.  On the other hand most parents who give some advice to their children raise adults that can live life on their own.  I believe direct guidance from God is very rare, even for prophets.  As I state above, most decisions are entirely our own based on knowledge and beliefs we have accepted as truths and God has no direct part.  This includes the decisions of church leaders, missionaries and members in callings.  This also the reason why people are called who are not worthy.  Why prayers go unanswered.  Why actions are taken that turn out to be just plain wrong in hindsight.  No one exercises agency 100% correct all the time.

Yes, no one is perfect. This takes nothing away from being led by the Spirit to find keys or being allowed to suffer problems that the Lord does not seemingly help us resolve.

This is why I believe the Lord instituted the delegation of keys, the operation of councils and common consent as the structures for Zion (the Church). The revealed ordinances and sacraments flow from that structure through imperfect people, to perfect them over time by the constant companionship the Spirit as manifest by their fruits (Christlike personal attributes, as little children in spiritual demeanor). The Lord brings people into the structure and lifestyle individually by the power of His Spirit (but see the Parable of the Sower -- I suppose this is where our agency and His guidance strike various balances).

Imperfection among the saints does not mean they or the Church are rotten to the core. It does not mean the Lord smiles upon treating them as if they are; concluding the structure and what comes of it through imperfect people are irredeemably destructive to the souls of His children; that the Lord’s atonement is not most perfectly manifest to the world through the Church at any stage of her development.

Edited March 14, 2022 by CV75

[Kenngo1969]

I have experienced, I believe, both "did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind" moments (see Doctrine and Covenants 6:22-23) and "O-God-where-is-the-pavilion-that-covereth-Thy-hiding-place" moments (see Doctrine and Covenants 121:1).  I'd love to be able to say, "Well, the reason I experienced the latter is because I was knee-deep in some sort of blatant personal apostasy, while the reason I experienced the former is because I was paying some sort of a special price to get, and to stay, close to God."  That would make it so much easier to put many of my experiences into proper perspective.  Alas, 't'aint so!   

As many times as it has seemed that my personal petitions have been greeted by brass heavens, and as many issues and questions in my life defy, stubbornly, any sort of resolution as a result, I cannot deny the times, perhaps few and far between, perhaps inconsistent, in which the Lord has spoken absolute, utter, complete peace to my very soul.  Perhaps the Lord has allowed me to have both types of experiences so that, ultimately, my decision to believe in, to trust, and to follow Him is my choice.  

[Kenngo1969]

56 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

... I have heard many claim that if we do our part and come up with a course of action or decision, God will always indicate whether that is right or wrong. ... 

You've heard people claim what you've heard people claim.  I have no reason to doubt you on that score, but, that said, I don't think the claim is accurate.  In fact, Brigham Young taught something that is diametrically opposed to that claim.

In fact, he said that if we get no specific guidance from God in relation to a particular matter but proceed to do the best we can based on what we know, God is bound to "honor that transaction."  I don't have a specific reference, but I first read this in the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young manual:

Quote

If I do not know the will of my Father, and what He requires of me in a certain transaction, if I ask Him to give me wisdom concerning any requirement in my life, or in regard to my own course, or that of my friends, my family, my children, or those that I preside over, and get no answer from Him, and then do the very best that my judgement will teach me, He is bound to own and honor that transaction, and He will do so to all intents and purposes.

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[JLHPROF]

56 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

My question to all of you is what is your thoughts of the balance of agency versus guidance from God.  There has to be a balance between agency and guidance or we would never grow if God gave us guidance on everything.

Agency refers to our ability to choose to obey God's will vs our own.  It doesn't refer to an inability to make decisions.

Christ was completely capable of making decisions, probably more than we are.  What did he say?

"I came into the world to do the will of him that sent me". "I do nothing except what I saw the Father do".

Obedience is the first law of heaven and one of the first covenants we make.  

Quote

I have heard many claim that if we do our part and come up with a course of action or decision, God will always indicate whether that is right or wrong.

I think what you refer to is the warning against slothful servants.

These seemingly contrasting balances are an interesting aspect of the gospel.  In this case obedience/God's will vs agency/not commanded in all things.

To me the balance isn't that complicated. IE:

1. God commands us to build temples. 
2. We have the agency to obey/disobey. 
3. If we disobey we don't get the blessings.
4. God isn't going to command every detail.  It's up to us to secure the zoning permits for instance and determine where to hammer each nail.  This is where our growth comes, not #2.

 

[Kenngo1969]

I do believe that "obedience is the first law of Heaven," since it is obedience that enabled everyone who has come or who will come to earth to enter into their second estate, while it is disobedience that prevented the premortally rebellious from entering into their second estate.  And I do believe that "when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated."  Doctrine and Covenants 130:21. 

That said, I don't think (as heretical, to some, as this idea might seem) that God blesses us via vending machine:  "I put in a quarter and selected 'Blessing B5'!  I want 'Blessing B5'!"  Sometimes, even God's vending machine eats our quarters!   His blessings come to us according to His will, on His timetable, according to what will serve His purposes best at any given time in our lives, and so on.

[Kenngo1969]

Who knew that the Rolling Stones were preaching the Gospel?

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

.........................

On this board I have heard those who state their experience is constant direct revelation from God that guides them in many of their day to day choices.  In priesthood today a new brother described how out of the blue God revealed to him and his wife they needed to move to a new state because of an unexpected job offer.  Last week, many of the testimonies included feelings of direct revelation for many small and quite frankly not that important questions.  We have all heard the stories of lost keys and children's toy's found under direct revelation of God.  I am also sure you are all aware of those who had very difficult choices, problems, sickness, ect. who prayed fervently for days, studied the scriptures and went to the temple and got no guidance.

Like "cheap grace" among the evangelical community, Mormons frequently claim "revelation," instead of inspiration, which actually cheapens the term "revelation."  Not everyone has to be Moses on Mt Sinai in order to have their prayers answered.  In fact, I consider it quite rare for anyone to be in constant communication with God through his Holy Spirit.  Absurd and unrealistic expectations are likely to create great disappointment.  Most of us are on our own in decision-making, and that is as it should be.  Otherwise free agency would have no meaning.  We all came here knowing that, even if some of us have forgotten.

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

My question to all of you is what is your thoughts of the balance of agency versus guidance from God.  There has to be a balance between agency and guidance or we would never grow if God gave us guidance on everything.  I have heard many claim that if we do our part and come up with a course of action or decision, God will always indicate whether that is right or wrong.  I can't believe that because by my thought that is the same as if we continued to make, approve or disapprove of every decision a child makes in life from birth to death.  I have seen far to many parents trying to do that and the results are always disastrous.  On the other hand most parents who give some advice to their children raise adults that can live life on their own.  I believe direct guidance from God is very rare, even for prophets.  As I state above, most decisions are entirely our own based on knowledge and beliefs we have accepted as truths and God has no direct part.  This includes the decisions of church leaders, missionaries and members in callings.  This also the reason why people are called who are not worthy.  Why prayers go unanswered.  Why actions are taken that turn out to be just plain wrong in hindsight.  No one exercises agency 100% correct all the time.

Yep.  You've got it.  Otherwise the notion that we are here to experience real life and gain something from dealing with it directly would have no meaning.  This is truly the school of hard knocks.  That doesn't mean that God does not help us out from time to time.  He has always helped me and protected me -- subtly of course -- and I constantly thank Him for His kindness and long suffering toward my unworthy soul.

[JLHPROF]

51 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Mormons frequently claim "revelation," instead of inspiration, which actually cheapens the term "revelation."  Not everyone has to be Moses on Mt Sinai in order to have their prayers answered.  

Amen to this.

[Rain]

That's really 2 separate issues.  Revelation/inspiration is how much God speaks to us.  Agency is what we do with that information or lack of information.

That never came more clear to me than when one of my children told me "I don't think it matters if I take God's path for me or my own path.  We get to choose."

Revelation/inspiration and agency obviously have connections, but how much revelation you get does not determine how often you choose to follow God.

I do think you are right though that we can often think God is telling us to do something, but find that not to be true. I think that sometimes though it isn't a lack of the Spirit being there, but a lack of our understanding.

For example, I can't tell you how often I would feel inspired to do _______  and __________ and ________. Eventually I wound up (many times) having a list of great things that was impossible to do.  And I would get frustrated and wonder if I was just so imperfect or just not hearing the Spirit or what. I felt like I HAD to do nearly everything  I was doing and had no joy.

So some time ago I felt I had to take nearly everything off the plate. Including prayer and scriptures. The only thing on that plate?  Do what feels right at that moment.   

Here's what I found - when I started doing this I felt great peace.  I felt God only expected me to "be still" instead of doing every little idea that "inspired" me or that I and others expected of me.  When I was feeling "inspired' I would be still till... I'm not sure sure how to describe it.  But little by little I felt an actual desire to pray and give thanks over my food.  I found myself wanting to read a particular scriptural passage.  Or wanting to go do that service. 

Through it I've learned that sometimes God tells us to do things.  Sometimes the Spirit lets us know _____ is a good thing, but we have to choose whether it is a good thing for us.  Way too often, because the Spirit testifies truth we feel the thing is good, but don't recognize the Spirit didn't actually tell us personally whether to do it or not.  And sometimes it is our own or other's expectations of whether we should do something.

The agency comes in as we use it to figure out which one of those things it is and then what we will do about it when we either know or determine we're just going to have to figure it out on our own.  

Edited March 14, 2022 by Rain

[bluebell]

Besides what everyone else has said about the differences between revelation and agency, I think one thing that trips us up with revelation is that we often assume that how it works for us (or doesn't work for us) is how it's going to work/not work for everyone.

I loved when Elder Bednar taught, in an Evening with a General Authority fireside to CES workers on revelation, that we are not the standard that everyone else measures up against.  He brought up how in Africa, he would frequently hear about people who had dreams about the missionaries or the church which would tell them that they needed to listen to the message.  Dreams are one way that some people, especially in certain cultures, are able to receive revelation from God.  But he made a point to say that not everyone will receive revelation that way, and that includes himself.  When we teach someone that they will receive revelation in a specific way (or we think that we have to receive revelation a certain way), we can mess people up (including ourselves).

God works with us in ways that are best for us (or in the ways that we allow him too, if we are limiting His abilities through our own choices), and what is best for us might be the exact opposite of what is best and helpful for someone else.

Elder Bednar also brought up a great point.  He reminded everyone that we don't have to know that we are being directed, in order for God to direct us.  He talked about Oliver Cowdery and the revelation he received in D&C 6, where God pointed out that he had been guided the whole time, otherwise he wouldn't have ended up where he did.

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, blessed art thou for what thou hast done; for thou hast inquired of me, and behold, as often as thou hast inquired thou hast received instruction of my Spirit. If it had not been so, thou wouldst not have come to the place where thou art at this time.

I find a lot of comfort in knowing that I don't have to recognize God's guidance, to be receiving it and following it.  It can be overwhelming and depressing to believe that my weaknesses can stop me from knowing God's will.  Thank goodness He can work with us right where we are, and still accomplish His purposes.

Speaking for myself, I have learned from my experiences that God communicates with me often-daily-and that He's involved in my life.  I have been seeking for that confirmation for many years and He has slowly been revealing His workings to me.  I have found that He does so more as I show Him that I am serious about treating them as important by writing down His communication and interaction with me as it happens.  I am always amazed at how quickly it can be forgotten without doing so.  I have had many experiences where truly miraculous things have happened that I forget! 

Until I am re-reading my journals that is, and it all comes back to me and strengthens my testimony a second time.  It is frightening to me how quickly these kinds of interactions can leave us.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2020-02-1000-an-evening-with-a-general-authority-elder-bednar?lang=eng

Edited March 14, 2022 by bluebell

[pogi]

16 hours ago, kimpearson said:

A very common phrase in the scriptures and the teachings of the Church is "Let them ask and they shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto them".  We all say prayers asking for guidance.  We also believe in agency.  The Church website defines agency as "Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior".

In my younger years, I felt like God was answering almost all my prayers.  As I have gotten older and really reflected on those answers I thought I was getting from God, I have come to realize that most were just the workings of my own brain, beliefs and knowledge coming to a conclusion that "felt" right.  I interpreted that feeling as God's guidance.  As I realized this and as I worked with so many in faith crisis's, I came to the conclusion that a key factor in a faith crisis is the realization that most of the answers one thought were directly from God, really weren't.  When many realize this they lose all or most of their faith in God.  I haven't lost my faith in God even though I believe God rarely reveals anything directly to anyone.  This is mainly because of 2 or 3 experiences that I still fully believe were revelation directly from God at key moments in my life.  The rest of the time I was making decisions based on things I had learned from scripture, parents, the world and Church leaders that I felt were truth through my exercise of agency to chose what I believe is truth.  I believe this is the light of Christ.  The knowledge comes from God through sources other than direct communication with God and we each with our own intelligence, recognize truth.  Being imperfect human beings, we never are 100% accurate in identifying truth and many times we actually reject a truth and make a decision that we call a sin.  I believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is God's promise to us that as we draw closer to Him through obedience to the covenants we make, the Holy Ghost will in some way I don't fully understand, help our spiritual awareness of truth grow stronger so that we make better and better decisions based on the knowledge we have gained through our own exercise of agency.

On this board I have heard those who state their experience is constant direct revelation from God that guides them in many of their day to day choices.  In priesthood today a new brother described how out of the blue God revealed to him and his wife they needed to move to a new state because of an unexpected job offer.  Last week, many of the testimonies included feelings of direct revelation for many small and quite frankly not that important questions.  We have all heard the stories of lost keys and children's toy's found under direct revelation of God.  I am also sure you are all aware of those who had very difficult choices, problems, sickness, ect. who prayed fervently for days, studied the scriptures and went to the temple and got no guidance.

My question to all of you is what is your thoughts of the balance of agency versus guidance from God.  There has to be a balance between agency and guidance or we would never grow if God gave us guidance on everything.  I have heard many claim that if we do our part and come up with a course of action or decision, God will always indicate whether that is right or wrong.  I can't believe that because by my thought that is the same as if we continued to make, approve or disapprove of every decision a child makes in life from birth to death.  I have seen far to many parents trying to do that and the results are always disastrous.  On the other hand most parents who give some advice to their children raise adults that can live life on their own.  I believe direct guidance from God is very rare, even for prophets.  As I state above, most decisions are entirely our own based on knowledge and beliefs we have accepted as truths and God has no direct part.  This includes the decisions of church leaders, missionaries and members in callings.  This also the reason why people are called who are not worthy.  Why prayers go unanswered.  Why actions are taken that turn out to be just plain wrong in hindsight.  No one exercises agency 100% correct all the time.

I believe that God will direct us as much as we allow him space to.  That is where agency comes into play.  I don't believe that there is an absolute right or wrong (as in predestination) answer with every decision (such as who you should marry, or who you should associate with, or what job you should take, etc.), but God will direct us and give us assurances to make decisions that are ultimately good for our well-being, and will direct us away from decisions that may hamper growth and wellbeing.  Often there are many right answers to some questions, in God's eyes. 

I can tell you from experience, that there is a palpable difference in daily direction from when I am practicing meditative prayer and when I am not.  When I give him space and listen, he speaks to me.  No question whatsoever about that.  He directs me for good.  Revelation/inspiration/direction is not rare, but is abundant, when I am open.  My quality of life and overall wellbeing and growth is vastly improved when I am heeding his direction.  No comparison.  Our agency lies in whom we will follow.  In following God, he still allows us much room for personal preference. There is a fallacy in believing that our agency is best utilized in independence from God in plowing our own path ahead.   

Edited March 14, 2022 by pogi

[teddyaware]

17 hours ago, kimpearson said:

A very common phrase in the scriptures and the teachings of the Church is "Let them ask and they shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto them".  We all say prayers asking for guidance.  We also believe in agency.  The Church website defines agency as "Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior".

In my younger years, I felt like God was answering almost all my prayers.  As I have gotten older and really reflected on those answers I thought I was getting from God, I have come to realize that most were just the workings of my own brain, beliefs and knowledge coming to a conclusion that "felt" right.  I interpreted that feeling as God's guidance.  As I realized this and as I worked with so many in faith crisis's, I came to the conclusion that a key factor in a faith crisis is the realization that most of the answers one thought were directly from God, really weren't.  When many realize this they lose all or most of their faith in God.  I haven't lost my faith in God even though I believe God rarely reveals anything directly to anyone.  This is mainly because of 2 or 3 experiences that I still fully believe were revelation directly from God at key moments in my life.  The rest of the time I was making decisions based on things I had learned from scripture, parents, the world and Church leaders that I felt were truth through my exercise of agency to chose what I believe is truth.  I believe this is the light of Christ.  The knowledge comes from God through sources other than direct communication with God and we each with our own intelligence, recognize truth.  Being imperfect human beings, we never are 100% accurate in identifying truth and many times we actually reject a truth and make a decision that we call a sin.  I believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is God's promise to us that as we draw closer to Him through obedience to the covenants we make, the Holy Ghost will in some way I don't fully understand, help our spiritual awareness of truth grow stronger so that we make better and better decisions based on the knowledge we have gained through our own exercise of agency.

On this board I have heard those who state their experience is constant direct revelation from God that guides them in many of their day to day choices.  In priesthood today a new brother described how out of the blue God revealed to him and his wife they needed to move to a new state because of an unexpected job offer.  Last week, many of the testimonies included feelings of direct revelation for many small and quite frankly not that important questions.  We have all heard the stories of lost keys and children's toy's found under direct revelation of God.  I am also sure you are all aware of those who had very difficult choices, problems, sickness, ect. who prayed fervently for days, studied the scriptures and went to the temple and got no guidance.

My question to all of you is what is your thoughts of the balance of agency versus guidance from God.  There has to be a balance between agency and guidance or we would never grow if God gave us guidance on everything.  I have heard many claim that if we do our part and come up with a course of action or decision, God will always indicate whether that is right or wrong.  I can't believe that because by my thought that is the same as if we continued to make, approve or disapprove of every decision a child makes in life from birth to death.  I have seen far to many parents trying to do that and the results are always disastrous.  On the other hand most parents who give some advice to their children raise adults that can live life on their own.  I believe direct guidance from God is very rare, even for prophets.  As I state above, most decisions are entirely our own based on knowledge and beliefs we have accepted as truths and God has no direct part.  This includes the decisions of church leaders, missionaries and members in callings.  This also the reason why people are called who are not worthy.  Why prayers go unanswered.  Why actions are taken that turn out to be just plain wrong in hindsight.  No one exercises agency 100% correct all the time.

You’ve got me wondering how often you go to the scriptures for answers? How do you think your notion that God only directly inspires us once in a great while squares with the following verses of scripture?

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. (D&C 121)

[kimpearson]

 

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

You’ve got me wondering how often you go to the scriptures for answers? How do you think your notion that God only directly inspires us once in a great while squares with the following verses of scripture?

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.
46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. (D&C 121)

I go to the scriptures all the time.  I am intimately familiar with all except the Old Testament (to much crazy stuff, except for the basic history).  When I am looking for guidance, I reflect on any scriptures that seem to apply.  At times I feel something in my mind that just clicks.  I used to think this was direct revelation from God.  Now I would say by my own free agency my mind makes a decision that I am not totally conscious of and that is the click.  I believe that is the light of Christ which my mind identifies, hopeful more often than not.  Neither God Himself nor the Holy Ghost are actively involved.  I am human and for more times than I wish, I made the wrong decision when I thought I had felt that click.  However there has been enough right decisions that I still continue to use this method including prayer and meditation.  I think the hardest struggle for anyone who looks to God for answers is admitting when they are wrong when they felt like God has given them an answer that in reality was the wrong answer.

[Rain]

8 hours ago, kimpearson said:

 

I go to the scriptures all the time.  I am intimately familiar with all except the Old Testament (to much crazy stuff, except for the basic history).  When I am looking for guidance, I reflect on any scriptures that seem to apply.  At times I feel something in my mind that just clicks.  I used to think this was direct revelation from God.  Now I would say by my own free agency my mind makes a decision that I am not totally conscious of and that is the click.  I believe that is the light of Christ which my mind identifies, hopeful more often than not.  Neither God Himself nor the Holy Ghost are actively involved.  I am human and for more times than I wish, I made the wrong decision when I thought I had felt that click.  However there has been enough right decisions that I still continue to use this method including prayer and meditation.  I think the hardest struggle for anyone who looks to God for answers is admitting when they are wrong when they felt like God has given them an answer that in reality was the wrong answer.

I think there are many who find the hardest thing is when they realize they were wrong or when they understood wrong.  You see this when people beat themselves up over their imperfect natures and the desperate desire to hear the Spirit correctly.

It just depends upon the person.

[BlueDreams]

On 3/13/2022 at 6:33 PM, kimpearson said:

A very common phrase in the scriptures and the teachings of the Church is "Let them ask and they shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto them".  We all say prayers asking for guidance.  We also believe in agency.  The Church website defines agency as "Agency is the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and to act for ourselves. Agency is essential in the plan of salvation. Without agency, we would not be able to learn or progress or follow the Savior".

In my younger years, I felt like God was answering almost all my prayers.  As I have gotten older and really reflected on those answers I thought I was getting from God, I have come to realize that most were just the workings of my own brain, beliefs and knowledge coming to a conclusion that "felt" right.  I interpreted that feeling as God's guidance.  As I realized this and as I worked with so many in faith crisis's, I came to the conclusion that a key factor in a faith crisis is the realization that most of the answers one thought were directly from God, really weren't.  When many realize this they lose all or most of their faith in God.  I haven't lost my faith in God even though I believe God rarely reveals anything directly to anyone.  This is mainly because of 2 or 3 experiences that I still fully believe were revelation directly from God at key moments in my life.  The rest of the time I was making decisions based on things I had learned from scripture, parents, the world and Church leaders that I felt were truth through my exercise of agency to chose what I believe is truth.  I believe this is the light of Christ.  The knowledge comes from God through sources other than direct communication with God and we each with our own intelligence, recognize truth.  Being imperfect human beings, we never are 100% accurate in identifying truth and many times we actually reject a truth and make a decision that we call a sin.  I believe the gift of the Holy Ghost is God's promise to us that as we draw closer to Him through obedience to the covenants we make, the Holy Ghost will in some way I don't fully understand, help our spiritual awareness of truth grow stronger so that we make better and better decisions based on the knowledge we have gained through our own exercise of agency.

On this board I have heard those who state their experience is constant direct revelation from God that guides them in many of their day to day choices.  In priesthood today a new brother described how out of the blue God revealed to him and his wife they needed to move to a new state because of an unexpected job offer.  Last week, many of the testimonies included feelings of direct revelation for many small and quite frankly not that important questions.  We have all heard the stories of lost keys and children's toy's found under direct revelation of God.  I am also sure you are all aware of those who had very difficult choices, problems, sickness, ect. who prayed fervently for days, studied the scriptures and went to the temple and got no guidance.

My question to all of you is what is your thoughts of the balance of agency versus guidance from God.  There has to be a balance between agency and guidance or we would never grow if God gave us guidance on everything.  I have heard many claim that if we do our part and come up with a course of action or decision, God will always indicate whether that is right or wrong.  I can't believe that because by my thought that is the same as if we continued to make, approve or disapprove of every decision a child makes in life from birth to death.  I have seen far to many parents trying to do that and the results are always disastrous.  On the other hand most parents who give some advice to their children raise adults that can live life on their own.  I believe direct guidance from God is very rare, even for prophets.  As I state above, most decisions are entirely our own based on knowledge and beliefs we have accepted as truths and God has no direct part.  This includes the decisions of church leaders, missionaries and members in callings.  This also the reason why people are called who are not worthy.  Why prayers go unanswered.  Why actions are taken that turn out to be just plain wrong in hindsight.  No one exercises agency 100% correct all the time.

I’m assuming I’m repeating a little as I haven’t read anything and currently am coming down with a cold. QThe word I think of most on the topic you bring is counsel. As in taking counsel from God. God states that as one of his names in the PoGP. Counsel to me is not the same thing as directing. It’s God advising us with guidance that, if chosen, will help us grow. The act of seeking god and accepting what he gives is agency. We can choose to grow and expand…or not. God counsels with us to expand. 

i an one of those people that feels god’s presence and often counsel very very regularly. 

3 stories come to mind like clips from my life.

1.) it seems like a bit of the reverse of your experience. I did not feel like God answered all of my prayers. Though I did experience moments of the divine, they were not consistent let alone all the time…up into my mission. Somewhere in there I actually got frustrated that I wasn’t experiencing God in my prayers or more sense of spiritual guidance. People said I should, I felt I should. So I went about assuming that more likely I was missing what God was trying to share with me. So with usual mission zeal I went at the concern for a week, taking a list from PMG on how the spirit manifests in our life. I divied them up and each day I would think of what I’d experienced of this in the past and look for it while doing the mission work. I was able to name or find all but maybe 1-2 of them and by the end I stopped feeling as thought God was not speaking or guiding me. …I don’t expect that to work for everyone. As you mentioned there is the light of Christ in all of us and I kinda see that as my brother of Jared moment of figuring out part of the solution while god did the other. But It’s been similar ever since. There’s still moments that are blank. But as I take counsel and commune in faith, I find God. 
 

2.) on agency to God’s guidance: Later in my 20’s i was told by said God to stay in a crap relationship. I didn’t personally want to on so many levels. I was starting to resent god. A lot. And gripe. A lot. One day in prayer  (picture prolonged chats that often included yelling/cussing on my end when I was frustrated) i got the distinct answer that I had a choice. That I could choose to get out and that would be okay and I would still grow in other ways… or i could choose this harder course that God preferred I take. I chose what god wanted of me because I wanted God more than anything else, even if in the short term it caused me pain (there were still many more yelling prayers to come). This is what I picture when I picture a balance of agency and counsel. I’m not bound to one course by communing. I’m not even bound to one good choice. But there are courses God knows I can grow most in. Even when I can’t see it…so I trust and have faith. I choose God.  I choose to give my will over to God. 
 

3.) right now I’ve been through a lot in the last two years. It’s taken a heavy toll emotionally and physically. God’s been there from the get go, I’ve learned a lot in the journey. But I’m wounded. I’m a therapist, so I know to some degree what’s generally needed. I also have learned to trust God to heal me deeply and wholly. So I did what I’ve learned over the years. I confront my pain, I share and give such to God, God gives guidance and healing stitch by stitch. I agree that there’s a lot we naturally have either by personal learning or gifts via the “light of christ.” But for me that’s only a part of the equation. God’s healing is beyond description…even as a therapist I pale in comparison to the work Christ does for us in that department. This is what I picture when I think of answers to prayers. I don’t think of “keys” or other mundane things though I don’t mind those stories even if I question a few of them. I have had a couple of those myself, but rarely…and often I realized why God answered something that seemed pretty small. But overall I picture this process of communion that alligns us to God in will and in the alignment a flood of light and love and understanding that heals in ways more profound than we can reach on our own. 
 

One other thing, I’ve seen people in faith crises before. I personally think the loss of belief that God answers them is usually more of a symptom of the experience. As in they didn’t stop believing God was answering them and so they had a faith crisis, but rather they had a faith crisis and now they’re questioning all avenues of spirituality or answers they previously received. It’s actually fairly common that there may be a handful of powerful experiences they have a harder time explaining away.
 

With luv, 

BD 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by BlueDreams

[SkyRock]

When I was young, I had a testimony and such.  I knew the church was true and prophet was called of God.  I always received a strong witness from the Spirit when I was in the presence of apostles or prophets.

When I turned 18, I decided to needed to not just go by this but do the Moroni 10:3-5 test.   I was ready to walk away if I didn't get an answer.  If it wasn't true, why waste my time, I thought.   

I received a very very powerful witness after I read the BoM again, pondered and prayed.   As a missionary I could challenge people to do the same and testify the they would receive an answer. 

My mission also was when I had some of many extreme challenges, or faith crises.  I did not come home thinking it was the best 2 years. 

These only continued.   I received revelation by vision, voice, and promptings.   Yet often following the guidance from the Holy Ghost led to worse things, horrible challenges, and severe trials.  No need to detail anything but when I have told people even some of what I have gone through, they are overwhelmed.

I am amazed when I look back that I didn't just give up. 

Anyway, enduring eventually led to vast improvements in many of these areas and I received great blessings.  The sacrifice and suffering led to great growth and I look back with gratitude for the trials I endured because I followed the Spirit.

I am still a flawed person in need of healing from Our Savior's love.   I see why I was directed on this path.  I just wish there had been some other way.