Uncomfortable Truths and how we deal with them

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, Rain said:

I love this post Tacenda.  I love that you decided to check into it first.  

I agree with Pogi and Bluebell about how it seems.  I also wouldn't stop looking so you can see the source to see it in context because you never know. Please let us know if you are able to find it somewhere.

Well, I think I should have learned by now and all the years I've posted, that things aren't always as they seem. I appreciate this board's members that have had patience with me. And when I read her post I'm like, nope, not gonna jump on the boat until I ask my friends on this board, haha. And I wasn't let down.

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, I think I should have learned by now and all the years I've posted, that things aren't always as they seem. I appreciate this board's members that have had patience with me. And when I read her post I'm like, nope, not gonna jump on the boat until I ask my friends on this board, haha. And I wasn't let down.

🙂

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Kind of justifying it is ok to marry your earthly sister

I am not seeing that, rather I see him emphasizing the family relationship exists between all of us and therefore to mistreat or corrupt anyone else (perhaps he is thinking of prostitution or rape in regards to corruption) is all that much worse. 
 

But it would be helpful to know what he means by foolish and ignorant traditions asI can see it easily slipping into a justification. 
 

The next paragraph is about Adam and Eve.  Going to have to change tech to see more, a phone gives me a sliver of the page to look at, lol. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

It is hard for me to read as block printing, so I am going to insert some breaks where it feels he is transitioning to another point and correct spelling if obviously typos.  This is my guess of a natural subject break, but he is speaking off the cuff, I am guessing, and is jumping to different stuff.  This is from an Adam-God page, btw.

Quote

I reckon that Father Adam was a resurrected being, with his wives and posterity, and in the Celestial kingdom they were crowned with glory, immortality, and eternal lives, with thrones, principalities, and powers: and it was said to him it is your right to organize the elements; and to your creations and posterity there shall be no end, but you shall add kingdom to kingdom, and throne to throne; and still behold that vast eternity of unorganized matter.

Adam then, was a resurrected being; and I reckon, our spirits and the spirits of all the human family were begotten by Adam, and born of Eve. "How are we going to know this?" I reckon it.

And I reckon that Adam came into the Garden of Eden, and did actually eat of the fruit that he, himself planted; and I reckon there was a previous understanding, and the whole plan was previously calculated, before the Garden of Eden was made, that he would reduce his posterity to sin, misery, darkness, wickedness, wretchedness, and to the power of the devil, that they might be prepared, for an exaltation, for without this they could not receive one.

I reckon that all things were first made spiritual preparatory to the natural organization. (p. 19) "What was the use of all this, could not [the] spirits be happy?" Yes, as far as they could. These Indians that roam upon the plains, and upon the mountains are comparatively happy in their degraded condition, because they do not know the comforts of civilized life. They can lay upon the ground, pull up sage brush to form a temporary shield against the cold, and get plenty of lizards, and crickets to eat, and they are happy. We would want a comfortable house to live in and something comfortable to eat; something that is suited to our nature, ability, taste, and appetite. We would not be happy and satisfied short of that. So our spirits are as happy as they know how to be. Were you now to live without a house you could not be happy; neither could the spirit be happy without a tabernacle which is the house of the spirit.

When the spirit enters the body it is pure, and good, and if the body would be subject to the spirit it would always be taught to do the will of the Father in Heaven. But the spirit is interwoven with the flesh and blood; it is subjected to the body, consequently Satan has power over both.

I reckon the Father has been through all this. Do you recollect what I told the brethren who came across the plains this season, when they were perplexed by their oxen; and were calling upon God to give you grace to perform the labor which lay before you? He could not sympathize with you, or know the nature of your trials if he had not passed through the same himself. He knew just as much about crossing the plains, and the trials connected with it as any of us.

The inquiry will arise, among those who are strenuous, and tenacious for the account given by Mosses, as to Adam. "Did not Adam die?" Yes, he died. "Does not the Bible say he died?" I do not know nor care, but I think it would be hard, I think, to find where he died; or where Moses died, (Reporters note. Gen. 5, chap., 5 v. And all the days that Adam lived were 930 years: and he died. Deut. 24, Chap., 5 v. Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he / buried him in a Valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor; but no man knoweth / or his sepulcher to this day). (p. 20) though I have no doubt Moses died, and Adam also; ________________________ _________________ have? Just as you and I have to die, and be laid away in the bowels of Mother earth; that, however, Moses did not see fit to tell us.

Adam planted the Garden of Eden, and he, with his wife Eve, partook of the fruit of this earth, until their systems were charged with the nature of earth, and then they could beget bodies, for their spiritual children. If the spirit does not enter into the embryo man that is forming in the womb of the woman, the result will be false conception. A living intelligent being cannot produced. Adam and Eve begot the first mortal bodies on this earth, and from that commencement every spirit that was ever begotten in eternity for this earth will enter bodies thus prepared for them here, until the winding up scene, and that will not be until the last of these spirits enters an earthly tabernacle.

Then I reckon that the children of Adam and Eve married each other; this is speaking to the point. I believe in sisters marrying brothers, and brothers having their sisters for wives. Why? because we cannot do otherwise. There are none others for me to marry but my sisters. "But you [do] not pretend to say you would marry your father, and mother's daughter?" If I did not, I would marry another of my sisters that lives over in another Garden; the material of which they are organized is just the same; there is no difference between them, and those who live in this garden.  Our spirits are all brothers and sisters, and so are our bodies; and the opposite idea to this has resulted from the ignorant, and foolish traditions of the nations of the earth. They have corrupted themselves with each other, and I want them to understand that they have corrupted their own flesh, blood, and bones; for they are of the same flesh, blood, and bones, us all the family of the earth.

I am approaching the subject of our marriage relations Bro. Hyde Lectured upon, but I shall not have time, or strength to say much about this. But, I reckon that Father Adam, and Mother Eve had the children of the human family prepared to come here and take bodies; and when they came to take (p. 21) bodies, they entered into the bodies prepared for them; and that body gets exaltation with the spirit, when they are prepared to be crowned in Father's kingdom. "What, into Adam's kingdom?" Yes. As to my talking, what I want to say at this time I shall not do it.

Then there is some Adam-God and other stuff until Young comes back to the subject of brothers and sisters marrying, but then moves on to plural marriage.  It does appear to be a justification of plural marriage based on the sin (tradition) of prostitution forced on women by men.  His inclination is to execute the man who seduced the woman and take the (young) woman into his home and care for and educate their illegitimate children, give the woman a trade like spinning or weaving.

Quote

In our marriage relations here we are marrying our brothers, and our sisters.

As to a man having more wives than one, this is startling indeed to the traditions of the people. With regard to it being the law of the Lord for a man to have only one wife, or for a man to have no wife it is no such thing; all that rests in the traditions of the people, and in the doings of legislative bodies; that is all there is about wives in the world as to the having many or none. It is corruption for men to deny the truth; for men to work iniquity; to defile themselves, and to betray the innocent.

If there are any of my friends who do not belong to the church here, I want to tell you one thing.  I will take all the sin there is before God and angels in men having one wife, (p. 24) two wives, ten, or fifty wives, that will use them well, upon my shoulders, if they will acknowledge them, support them, raise children by them, and bring them up as well as they know how; I say I will take all the sins there is in this, of the whole of the Latter Day Saints, and place them with one sin of your poor devils, who when you were young men courted that poor innocent girl, and made her believe you would marry her, then got her in the family way and left her to the wide world, you poor curses. This one sin of yours will weigh down all the sins of the Latter Day Saints together, and go down about enough for you to be damned in the bottomless pit; while the elders of Israel will be exalted among the Gods.

There are scores and hundreds, and thousands of these poor girls upon the streets of the cities of the United States. "Why Governor, did you ever see any of them?" Yes, lots of them; in that neighborhood, and in the other neighborhood, I have found respectable families, where a young mechanic, a merchant, a lawyer, or a farmer, or some other poor miserable wretch fit for nothing but the fire of hell, would insinuate themselves into the family, court the daughter, win her affections, desire her, and then forsake her, and then boast of your achievements and rejoice over your success; but weep and howl for the miseries that shall come upon you, you poor damned wretches. I want to cut their damned throats, and I will if I catch any of them doing it here. I should hold myself guilty before God and angels if I did not sweep the earth of such lo wretch. I will not ask the Lord to do a dirty trick I would not do myself.

Let them prowl around my daughter, and I will slay them, yes, as fast as I can come to them. What more will I do? When I find a young woman caught in this snare, I will take her to my house, and say, "You have a home with me and my family." I only know these iniquities by observation, I was never (p. 25) of such sins; the wickedest day I ever saw I would not betray an innocent female, but instead of prostituting them, I would tell them how to do right, and teach them the way of life and salvation, and see them safe in the kingdom of God if they would obey my counsel. But you will take a poor helpless, innocent creature, and lead the unsuspecting victim nigh to the alter of marriage, and then ruin the innocent lamb, you poor cursed Gentiles, go and weep, and howl. In New York alone there are over eighteen hundred prostitutes licensed in that city to corrupt themselves for hell; and I want to tell every man that is going to hell, that it is full of such creatures, so full that their elbows stick out of the windows. Instead of creating such an awful state of society as this presents, we take to ourselves wives, acknowledge them, raise their children, school them, and try to teach them the way of salvation.

Let me tell you what they should [do] in the City of New York, that holy, that righteous city, and to other cities, where there are thousands of licensed houses of ill-fame, besides thousands of private ones that are not licensed but go under different appellations. They should set fire to every poor filthy debaucher, and collect the illegitimate children, as they are called, that are running in the streets, and wash them, and school them, and teach them righteousness, and not suffer them to mingle with those that mingle unlawfully together. Also, take the women, and wash them clean, and put them to work, at spinning, weaving, and at other useful employment in the country.

As they now exist, they want to die, they have lost their character, and nothing appears in the future for them but a life of wretchedness of the lowest ________ grade. There are thousands of these poor women who would bless the first person who would kill them. They do not wish to kill themselves, but live they must and disguise their real feelings.

Let the world cleanse themselves before they talk about Utah; and when they get sanctified, and become purer than we are, they may come and give us a few (p. 26) on purity. It is a subject I do not wish to name, but in my remarks I seemed to run on to it, and could not well avoid it. I wish you to understand will the position I have taken, and the nature of the remarks I have made. Profit by them, both saints and sinners.

You have had things laid before you that do not belong to the world, not to men and women, who calculate to apostatize. They belong to the wise; to those who are serving God with all their hearts.

Now let me say to the wicked in heart, you cannot remember a word of this discourse unless you remember it in the Lord. I might reveal all there is in eternity, and those who have not their hearts on righteousness would know nothing about it, nor be in the least instructed. I commenced with Father Adam in his resurrected state, noticed our spiritual state, then our temporal, or mortal state, and traveled until I got back to Father Adam again.

After considering all this, what have you seen that makes it appear we are not brethren and sisters. Does it appear that we are not because we are commanded to multiply and replenish the earth? You think when you run into grandchildren and great-grandchildren, etc., that by and by there will be no connection. They are just as much connected in spirit and body, in flesh, and blood, and bone, as your children are that you bear off your own body. This is something pertaining to our marriage relation. The whole world will think what an awful thing it is. What an awful thing it would be if the Mormons should just say we believe in marrying brothers and sisters. Well, we shall be under the necessity of doing it, because we cannot find anybody else to marry. The whole world are at the same thing, and will be as long as man exists upon the earth. I feel as though I have said enough. I have talked long enough for my own good; and we shall bring our conference to a close.

https://www.adamgod.com/evidence/1854-10-08-brigham-young.html

Edited March 26, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is hard for me to read as block printing, so I am going to insert some breaks where it feels he is transitioning to another point and correct spelling if obviously typos.  This is my guess of a natural subject break, but he is speaking off the cuff, I am guessing, and is jumping to different stuff.  This is from an Adam-God page, btw.

Then there is some Adam-God and other stuff until Young comes back to the subject of brothers and sisters marrying, but then moves on to plural marriage.  It does appear to be a justification of plural marriage based on the sin (tradition) of prostitution forced on women by men.  His inclination is to execute the man who seduced the woman and take the (young) woman into his home and care for and educate their illegitimate children, give the woman a trade like spinning or weaving.

https://www.adamgod.com/evidence/1854-10-08-brigham-young.html

No worries...I un-joined the MS's facebook group. I'm turning a leaf I guess.

[Rain]

21 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No worries...I un-joined the MS's facebook group. I'm turning a leaf I guess.

https://images.app.goo.gl/cyJx4kFvxXcnzVQXA

😁

 

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, Rain said:

https://images.app.goo.gl/cyJx4kFvxXcnzVQXA

😁

 

Hmmm, which leaf will I be, haha!

[Stargazer]

On 3/1/2022 at 4:53 AM, kimpearson said:

Well I do have to say I didn't quite expect the general response I got.  The following are just my views and opinions on your responses.

• Most of you either don't believe or won't admit there are any uncomfortable truths currently taught as truth in the Church about women and priesthood.  Do you believe there are any other  uncomfortable truths taught?

 

• Based on responses, anybody who is uncomfortable with any thing taught as truth related to women and the priesthood in the gospel is wrong and has no basis for such feeling.  So I guess many of you believe there is no need to even address this as it isn't an issue.

 

• Many of  you have no problem with gas lighting.  You knew exactly what I was saying about women not presiding over men in priesthood callings but instead you sought to convince me I was wrong.  No deacon is presided over by a women in the priesthood, no teacher is presided over by a woman in the priesthood, no priest is presided over by a woman in the priesthood, no elder is presided over by a woman in the priesthood, no high priest is presided over by a woman in the priesthood, no seventy is presided over by a woman in the priesthood, no apostle is presided over by a woman in the priesthood.  No woman is presided over by another woman in the priesthood as the presiding priesthood authority over women is the bishop.  No man or child who doesn't hold any priesthood is presided over in the priesthood by a woman as the presiding priesthood holder of unordained men and children is the bishop.  All the talk about primary presidents and women presiding in meetings is an attempt to gaslight my original statement.

 

• Some of you gas lighted my statements that there are no scriptural or authoritative explanation of why women can't hold the priesthood by asking me for evidence when I am telling you I can't find anything so there is nothing to offer.  If you thought my statement was wrong, the only way to show I am wrong is find scriptures or authoritative statements that give a clear explanation why women can't hold the priesthood.  Saying the Godhead is all made up of men is not an explanation of anything about why anyone doesn't hold the priesthood.  Its a statement of who does hold the priesthood.

 

• I am curious if any of you have talked to anyone troubled about women and the priesthood.  Have the arguments you have used in my discussion comforted such people and answered all their questions?

Thanks for all the responses.

I don't think you understand what gaslighting is. It is not, as you seem to suggest, the act of disagreeing with you, or offering suggestions as to why your "facts" are incorrect. "Gaslighting" requires that the gaslighter be deceiving, or lying to, the gaslit. I think that pretty well everyone here who has responded to you sincerely believes what they told you.

As for your discomfort: I'm not discomforted at all by any of the asserted "facts" you presented. But I don't doubt there are people who are troubled about "women and the priesthood." I also do not doubt that there are people who are troubled by the fact that the age of the earth is about 4.5 billion years. Just as there are those troubled by the fact that the universe appears to be 13.5 billion years old. Or that in 5 billion years the sun will have expanded to the point where it's photosphere will encompass the earth's orbit, and our planet will be vaporized.

This appears in my signature block: "How poore, how narrow, how impious a measure of God, is this, that he must doe, as thou wouldest doe, if thou wert God." [John Donne, from a sermon preached in St. Paul's Jan. 30, 1624/5]

Or, in other words, Isaiah 55:8,9. 

If God wants women to be ordained to the priesthood, then I'm pretty sure He'll eventually get around to revealing this. If God wants men to get pregnant and have babies, then I'm pretty sure He'll eventually get around to making it so (in the tradition of Capt. Jean-Luc Picard).

In the meantime, we shall have to make do with Lia Thomas.

 

[Rain]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Hmmm, which leaf will I be, haha!

I tried to make just one show up here, but with a .gif I could only figure out a link.  Accidental great news since now it means you get to choose!

[mfbukowski]

On 3/25/2022 at 4:23 PM, Tacenda said:

Well, I think I should have learned by now and all the years I've posted, that things aren't always as they seem. I appreciate this board's members that have had patience with me. And when I read her post I'm like, nope, not gonna jump on the boat until I ask my friends on this board, haha. And I wasn't let down.

I was once in a singles ward, and married someone in the ward.

I did not do this but theoretically I  could have asked her... "Sister Jones, will you marry me?" 

And theoretically there would be nothing incorrect in doing so!

[Rain]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I was once in a singles ward, and married someone in the ward.

I did not do this but theoretically I  could have asked her... "Sister Jones, will you marry me?" 

And theoretically there would be nothing incorrect in doing so!

Maybe Tacenda gets it, but I don't understand what this has to do with what you quoted. Would you explain please?

[Tacenda]

47 minutes ago, Rain said:

Maybe Tacenda gets it, but I don't understand what this has to do with what you quoted. Would you explain please?

I get it because we call each other sister and brother so and so in the ward family. But you probably understood that part, not sure.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I get it because we call each other sister and brother so and so in the ward family. But you probably understood that part, not sure.

Ahh.  Totally did not connect that one.  Thanks!

[Tacenda]

I'm wondering why with the billions of dollars the church has, it doesn't make sure that missionaries have safer living conditions.

Just read elsewhere of a sister missionary's relative who is a healthcare worker that said his niece video'd called him saying she developed a severe rash since being on her mission for two weeks. Then showed the apartment and it was filled with mold everywhere. 

Why is this even acceptable? Or did something fall through the cracks? Or is there people in charge of making sure the living conditions are safe?

[JustAnAustralian]

Why is there mould there? Is it because the apartment has issues or because the missionaries that stay there don't have a clue about cleaning and living practices that prevent mould?

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Why is there mould there? Is it because the apartment has issues or because the missionaries that stay there don't have a clue about cleaning and living practices that prevent mould?

According to what I read, she'd only been on her mission for 2 weeks, so I wonder if there's an inspection of an apartment for the next missionaries or maybe she showed up with an older missionary. But really, mold isn't a matter of cleanliness, it's a matter of moisture getting in. And for it to show it would take a bit of time. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But really, mold isn't a matter of cleanliness, it's a matter of moisture getting in. And for it to show it would take a bit of time. 

Writes a woman who lives in a desert ...

I use mould remover every single week when I clean my bathroom. If I didn't, mould would be everywhere. I also regularly clean the mould from the frames and tracks of my windows. If I didn't, it would eventually spread to walls and carpets.

My house was built in 1999, has good ventilation, and is in good condition. This is just how life is outside of deserts.

Of course, we should never let reality get in the way of using someone's story to try to trash the Church ...

Edited April 6, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Writes a woman who lives in a desert ...

I use mould remover every single week when I clean my bathroom. If I didn't, mould would be everywhere. I also regularly clean the mould from the frames and tracks of my windows. If I didn't, it would eventually spread to walls and carpets.

My house was built in 1999, has good ventilation, and is in good condition. This is just how life is outside of deserts.

Of course, we should never let reality get in the way of using someone's story to try to trash the Church ...

Haha, you betcha, trashing the church is what I do best. 

[Ragerunner]

On 2/26/2022 at 11:12 PM, kimpearson said:

I have been thinking about a number of issues that cause most of the faith crisis or hard discussions in the Church.  I have thought about Brad Wilcox's attempts to give explanations to those issues.  I have recently been listening to Jared Halverson's explanation of those issues.  In my opinion, neither Brad nor Jared, give explanations that in the following words of Joseph Smith tastes sweet.

"This is good doctrine. It tastes good. I can taste the principles of eternal life, and so can you. They are given to me by the revelations of Jesus Christ; and I know that when I tell you these words of eternal life as they are given to me, you taste them, and I know that you believe them. You say honey is sweet, and so do I. I can also taste the spirit of eternal life. I know it is good; and when I tell you of these things which are given me by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive them as sweet, and rejoice more and more." (King Follet sermon)

So I would like to present some of those issues, what I see as the facts the Church claims on the issue and my views.  Would you please share your views on the issue and how you find an explanation that "tastes good" to you.

Women and the priesthood

Facts -

• Women cannot be ordained to the priesthood
• Women cannot preside over any man in a priesthood calling
• Women cannot preside over a ward, stake, area or world as the final authority
• Women cannot perform priesthood ordinances with the exception of washing and anointings
• Women cannot perform priesthood blessings by anointing with consecrated oil
• Women cannot stand on the other side of the veil in the temple
• There is no revelation anywhere in any canonized scripture that says women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no modern prophet who has ever said women cannot hold the priesthood
• There is no explanation anywhere of why women can't hold the priesthood
• There appears to be no effort by current prophets to get revelation on this matter
• Numerous changes have been made in recent years to give women a greater voice
• Numerous general authorities have explained that women have access to all the blessings of the priesthood but never attempt to explain why women can't be ordained to the priesthood
• Many women and young women who are members of the Church really struggle with all the above and feel pain related to it

My views

• Women not being ordained to the priesthood appears to be the result of thousands of years of cultural indoctrination with no indication that God was ever behind it.
• Leaders of the Church don't dare change anything unless they get a revelation from God.  Only President Kimball appears to have been willing of recent prophets to put the work in to get such a revelation.
• Our cultural conditioning conditions us to believe that men and women could never function smoothly together is a bishopric, stake presidency or high council.
• A very significant portion of the male active members of the Church would really struggle if women were ordained to the priesthood.
• Other churches have demonstrated beyond any doubt that women are capable of leading congregations and church leadership.
• I am not comfortable and feel nothing sweet tasting with any explanation I have ever been given as to why true doctrine is that women shouldn't be ordained to the priesthood.

Your views

I would love to hear your views on this issue and how you find a sweet taste with any explanation that has been given.

 

More issues to come but let us address them one at a time.

I am a little late to this party.

But, we are told that our ultimate goal is to live with our Heavenly Father, become like him and gain all that he has.

I personally believe this and it applies to both male and females.

I would assume this means the authority and power of the priesthood will be held by all in the celestial kingdom. When will this become available, I don’t know. But it would not bother me at all if this would happen in mortal life.

If the gospel is still being restored (which I believe to be true), then more is to come.

[SwedishLDS]

There is also a lot of scriptures about remaking God in ones image and how people take the truth to be hard. 
 

Apostasy is sometimes people doing what is popular and not what is true

Edited April 6, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[MrShorty]

28 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

Apostasy is people doing what is popular and not what is true

I have often noted that the Race and the Priesthood essay expends a lot of text explaining how the now disavowed justifications for the ban (and general racist attitudes in general) were a very "popular" part of 19th century and early 20th century American culture. It seems to me that the same statement could apply to Church leaders and members who believed the popular racial opinions of their day rather than seeking to know God's truth about race. Disavowal is a lot softer than apostasy, but does it, essentially mean the same thing?

[SwedishLDS]

48 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I have often noted that the Race and the Priesthood essay expends a lot of text explaining how the now disavowed justifications for the ban (and general racist attitudes in general) were a very "popular" part of 19th century and early 20th century American culture. It seems to me that the same statement could apply to Church leaders and members who believed the popular racial opinions of their day rather than seeking to know God's truth about race. Disavowal is a lot softer than apostasy, but does it, essentially mean the same thing?

Thank you. I will expand a little on my on my earlier comment.

My point was more so that a point to something feeling good or fitting popular movements, ideologies and trends of the day is not a good match of whether something is true or right and a poor interpretation of Sweet doctrine. Christianity got big after it apostatised and lost the priesthood. On the other hand Christianity has been in decline since the church got restored during the 1800s and 1900s especially.

The church is not supposed to mirror society, and in fact when it does is often when it has fallen away or become corrupted. The gospel is not a popularity contest. For example, Same Sex marriage is popular nowadays in the US with around 70% supporting it, that doesn’t however mean the same as it being part of Gods plan. We should not remake God in our image but instead try to follow him.

We have been promised that But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/apostasy?lang=eng). What that means exactly is open to debate, but I take it to mean the priesthood will not be lost. Disavowed may match in the latter but not in the way I meant it for greater society.

Edited April 6, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[Tacenda]

Saw this on exmo reddit. It's disgusting how the fat shaming is still happening all around us. 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Tacenda

[Nofear]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Saw this on exmo reddit. It's disgusting how the fat shaming is still happening all around us. 

I suppose posting a video from 50 years ago is good evidence for "still happening". That's not to say one is incorrect in the assertion.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Saw this on exmo reddit. It's disgusting how the fat shaming is still happening all around us. 

 

Are you voting for Nixon or McGovern? I am still undecided.