mbh26 Posted February 16, 2022 Author Posted February 16, 2022 15 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Whether or not there is such a being isn't an intellectual exercise to wonder about. It's an undeniable experience. I couldn't reason by belief away if I tried (I actually did for a while). I've experienced God's presence too many times to doubt he's there. Now knowing and doing what he wants is an entirely different issue... 13 hours ago, Fether said: Quote Imagine a 2D Plane with a sentient stick figure who can only experience life in 2D. I'm not sure I can imagine a 2D plane. Even the stick figure has some width to it. Otherwise there is no stick figure at all.
mbh26 Posted February 16, 2022 Author Posted February 16, 2022 Quote This is a great question and should cause you to wonder whether or not there is such a being that we call God. Perhaps to some it should cause me to wonder this. But I'm done questioning if there is a God. I've had too many other spiritual experiences that don't make sense to my natural mind to give up my entire belief system over a few things that haven't been revealed to me yet. I know and always have known there is a God even though my understanding is incomplete. 4
Calm Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) Flatland is a good place to start. Several video versions are available, I don’t see the one they showed me in school yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland Here is something about the 2d part: https://youtu.be/SykCEsz5Lnc Edited February 16, 2022 by Calm
Nofear Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 13 hours ago, Fether said: Your thinking with a 3D mine. Remember interstellar where the space-man-guy was floating through the higher dimension and was seeing different periods of time? That is what I’m referring to. Looks like I stand corrected. My theology and science would certainly be more maturely developed if I just paid closer attention to the theology and science in movies.
Olmec Donald Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) On 2/15/2022 at 11:51 AM, mbh26 said: So clearly one on one time with Heavenly Father would be impossible based on the physical laws of the universe that we experience here on earth... As others have pointed out, apparently there's a very different set of "physical" laws in play beyond the earth plane. Also, recall that Christ said, "where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." I don't begin to understand the mechanics involved, but I think he was totally serious. And this is just my opinion, but I also think the minimum number of people who need be gathered in his name in order for him to be present is ONE. 20 hours ago, The Nehor said: Why couldn’t he be in more than one place at a time? Even mere mortals who have had near-death experiences sometimes report being in multiple places simultaneously. This woman had experiences in three distinct environments simultaneously during the explosion of a roadside bomb in Iraq (though she initially relates them sequentially because that's how time works down here). The link should be cued up to 6:10 where she begins describing her experience, listen to the first ten minutes or so if you have time. Her vocabulary is probably a bit unfamiliar but her account is imo educational and uplifting: https://youtu.be/s8lQs1MccoU?t=370 Edited February 16, 2022 by Olmec Donald 1
The Nehor Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said: Also, recall that Christ said, "where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." I think he was totally serious. And this is just my opinion, but I also think that the minimum number of people who need be gathered in his name in order for him to be present is ONE. A temple sealer I knew was convinced the Father attends every sealing of his children, a feat impossible if you mean bodily present and God only existing in one place at one time. 1
CA Steve Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 On 2/15/2022 at 12:51 PM, mbh26 said: So clearly one on one time with Heavenly Father would be impossible based on the physical laws of the universe that we experience here on earth. My question is will we or have we ever had a personal relationship with Heavenly Father or is that relationship similar to say our relationship with the prophet or perhaps our relationship with the Holy Ghost? It is an interesting question that would depend on whether or not we believe God is subject to physical laws of the Universe as we know them. But let's make it a bit more personal. As Mormons we believe in eternal increase. What kind of relationship will we really have as parents to say 1,268,457,251,425,658,903± children?
The Nehor Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 5 hours ago, CA Steve said: It is an interesting question that would depend on whether or not we believe God is subject to physical laws of the Universe as we know them. But let's make it a bit more personal. As Mormons we believe in eternal increase. What kind of relationship will we really have as parents to say 1,268,457,251,425,658,903± children? Why would that change anything? We have limited time and action here. I doubt God has that problem. He can teach me to do whatever the spirit equivalent of learning to ride a bike is while attending to all my brothers and sisters simultaneously. That assumes that simultaneous even means anything in that context which I am not sure of. 1
CV75 Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 16 hours ago, CA Steve said: It is an interesting question that would depend on whether or not we believe God is subject to physical laws of the Universe as we know them. But let's make it a bit more personal. As Mormons we believe in eternal increase. What kind of relationship will we really have as parents to say 1,268,457,251,425,658,903± children? Since all are "co-eternal" there is a fulness of relationship or communion. In this world we temporarily have a veil over that community, but it would return according to the glory we are willing to receive, e.g. our "own place" (D&C 88: 32) without that communion or the co-eternal place, the Church of the Firstborn (D&C 88:5; 107:9). 1
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 On 2/15/2022 at 3:59 PM, JLHPROF said: Whether or not there is such a being isn't an intellectual exercise to wonder about. Sure it is at least in part. One needs to have an idea and some knowledge about what God may or may not be. One reads alleged scripture. Listens to those claiming special communication with God, ponders philosophical issues like the one in the OP. On 2/15/2022 at 3:59 PM, JLHPROF said: It's an undeniable experience. Well that may come later. But you need enough intellectual knowledge to seek the experience. You are not planning to pray if the teapot revolving around Venus is God are you? Why is that? Likely because you dismiss it intellectually. In addition experience is unique to you and others experience a God you reject. I had lunch with a friend yesterday. A wonderful devout protestant full of biblical knowledge. His experience rejects the Mormon God. Whose experience is right in this case? On 2/15/2022 at 3:59 PM, JLHPROF said: I couldn't reason by belief away if I tried (I actually did for a while). I've experienced God's presence too many times to doubt he's there. Again this is unique only to you. It is of no value in demonstrating whether your God is real or whether your experience really meant anything. On 2/15/2022 at 3:59 PM, JLHPROF said: Now knowing and doing what he wants is an entirely different issue...
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 On 2/15/2022 at 4:24 PM, carbon dioxide said: It is hard to know all the specifics at this time but God makes it work somehow. How can you be sure God makes it work somehow?
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 On 2/16/2022 at 9:12 AM, mbh26 said: Perhaps to some it should cause me to wonder this. Yes it should. On 2/16/2022 at 9:12 AM, mbh26 said: But I'm done questioning if there is a God. Ok. It is your journey. On 2/16/2022 at 9:12 AM, mbh26 said: I've had too many other spiritual experiences that don't make sense to my natural mind to give up my entire belief system over a few things that haven't been revealed to me yet. I know and always have known there is a God even though my understanding is incomplete. I am happy for you.
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 19 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: As others have pointed out, apparently there's a very different set of "physical" laws in play beyond the earth plane. Hmmm I am not sure that is correct. What evidence is there of another set of physical laws. I thing that physical laws apply across the universe? We may not know about all of them or understand them all but there is not a different set. I think gravity, for example, applies everywhere there is mass. And I though Mormonism teaches God is subject to these laws and indeed did not create them. 19 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: Also, recall that Christ said, "where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." I don't begin to understand the mechanics involved, but I think he was totally serious. And this is just my opinion, but I also think the minimum number of people who need be gathered in his name in order for him to be present is ONE. Even mere mortals who have had near-death experiences sometimes report being in multiple places simultaneously. This woman had experiences in three distinct environments simultaneously during the explosion of a roadside bomb in Iraq (though she initially relates them sequentially because that's how time works down here). The link should be cued up to 6:10 where she begins describing her experience, listen to the first ten minutes or so if you have time. Her vocabulary is probably a bit unfamiliar but her account is imo educational and uplifting: https://youtu.be/s8lQs1MccoU?t=370
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 20 hours ago, The Nehor said: A temple sealer I knew was convinced the Father attends every sealing of his children, a feat impossible if you mean bodily present and God only existing in one place at one time. But this was simply speculation.
Tacenda Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 The God that isn't with a physical body can.
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 57 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The God that isn't with a physical body can. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipresence#:~:text=The Bible states that God,33%3A13-14).
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, Teancum said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipresence#:~:text=The Bible states that God,33%3A13-14). The Bible states that God can be both present to a person in a manifest manner (Psalm 46:1, Isaiah 57:15) as well as being present in every situation in all of creation at any given time (Psalm 33:13-14). Those scriptures don't even imply that God is everywhere.
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Those scriptures don't even imply that God is everywhere. Well argue with almost the entirety of Christianity about it then. I simply provided a resource. I did not endorse it. But your interpretation is in a very small minority when it comes the Christian beliefs, doctrine and what most denominations teach.
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 22 minutes ago, Teancum said: Well argue with almost the entirety of Christianity about it then. I simply provided a resource. I did not endorse it. But your interpretation is in a very small minority when it comes the Christian beliefs, doctrine and what most denominations teach. I don't even think it's an interpretation issue. Psalms 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Psalms 33:13 The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. 14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. Not one of these states ANYTHING about God being everywhere. I don't see how they could be read in any other way. The Psalms 33 states that God sees all, and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. Of course God is always there for us. But omnipresent?
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I don't even think it's an interpretation issue. Psalms 46:1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble. Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Psalms 33:13 The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men. 14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth. Not one of these states ANYTHING about God being everywhere. I don't see how they could be read in any other way. The Psalms 33 states that God sees all, and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. Of course God is always there for us. But omnipresent? Try this one. Have only read part of it though. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipresence/
JLHPROF Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, Teancum said: Try this one. Have only read part of it though. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipresence/ I think the challenge comes from the idea of omnipresence. Our theology absolutely believes in the all seeing eye, that God is aware of all of us. But because we believe he has a physical body we reject the idea that his physical presence is everywhere. As in the first scripture in this article: Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there. (Psalms 139: 7–8, NRSV) It's only because Trinitarians believe God the Father to be a Spirit that they believe he can be omnipresent so you are right that we disagree with much of Christianity. I don't know that if they believed God had a physical body that it could be everywhere. I will read that article fully though. It's interesting!
mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 I think the voice of God IS the EXPERIENCE of the still small voice, or "conscience" Atheists even speak of it. "But it's only social evolution, eons of time of society evolving within us to pick the virtues society wants us to have" some say. Irrelevant. Everything evolves. Maybe Gods evolve for all we know, that isn't the point. That is the HOW question, which cannot solve the WHY we exist at all question. Atheist: "There IS no purpose" Theist: "Prove it! That's one paradigm, and I believe another. Your answer is just one paradigm, that cannot be proven, just like mine, that you accept by faith!" Crickets.... When you EXPERIENCE an intelligence outside that talks to you, makes sense, and answers back in is own way, everything changes. Then we start making up explanations for the experience. It's what humans do! But undeniably that voice is there. It's the explanations that mess everything up, but citing mechanisms will never disprove the empirical reality of the EXPERIENCE. 1
mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 45 minutes ago, Teancum said: Well argue with almost the entirety of Christianity about it then. I simply provided a resource. I did not endorse it. But your interpretation is in a very small minority when it comes the Christian beliefs, doctrine and what most denominations teach. Oh, it's technology you want, is it? Ok so God has a constant ZOOM connection with all humans simultaneously, with a God-O-CAM attached so He can see you and your thoughts and feelings any time you wanna talk. He's not THERE but doesn't have to be, if his presence is required he hops into the God -O- Mobile, and is instantly knocking at your door. Do you let Him in? Or will a similarly equipped God-O-Bot do for now? Quick, He's a busy Guy... But we don't yet have his technology so we make up stories like this one to explain the mechanism, which is actually irrelevant.... you want HOW answers instead of WHY answers. That is the real problem Does that help?
Teancum Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I think the challenge comes from the idea of omnipresence. Our theology absolutely believes in the all seeing eye, that God is aware of all of us. But because we believe he has a physical body we reject the idea that his physical presence is everywhere. As in the first scripture in this article: Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there. (Psalms 139: 7–8, NRSV) It's only because Trinitarians believe God the Father to be a Spirit that they believe he can be omnipresent so you are right that we disagree with much of Christianity. I don't know that if they believed God had a physical body that it could be everywhere. I will read that article fully though. It's interesting! Yes it is interesting. And FYI I am not endorsing omnipresence. Just discussing it.
mfbukowski Posted February 17, 2022 Posted February 17, 2022 37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: The Psalms 33 states that God sees all, and I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. He's got Zoom... Problem solved. How about lunch?
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