Watchman on the Tower: Ezra Taft Benson and the Making of the Mormon Right

[why me]

On 1/6/2022 at 6:58 PM, Teancum said:

I just finished reading this boo.  Has anyone else here read it?  It is a great book.  I kne ETB was very political and very extreme right wing.  But I did not realize how far he took it nor that he had presidential aspirations.  It seems that politics almost took precedence over his apostolic calling.  It also seems he has had a huge impact on the political views of so many church member in the US and especially in the west.  It seems pretty certain he was a right wing extremist.  The dominance of the Republican party among Latter day Saints can likely be laid at his feet as can so much of the right wing extremism among church members today. They all rely on his sermons extensively.

It amazes me how much influence and lasting impact, and not always for good, that one strong willed LDS leader can have and leave on the church. ETB did it politically.  McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith did it in regards to dogmatic doctrine.

I don't think that you are correct. I don't think that his politics had much to do with many members at that time at all. I was there, lived in it at that time. Church members became republican because republicanism was conservative on social issues. The democrats were liberal on social issues. Thus, mormons in the US inside the mormon corridor were republicans. ETB was a member of the John Birch Society. Most members had no idea what that was. And the society had little impact in American politics. That being said, many mormons in other parts of the world belonged to the social democrat parties. Others were conservative. And most were just going through life surviving, especially in the USA. The 70s were rough for many members. Church welfare played a huge role in keeping people afloat. Conservatism was defined by Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley of the National Review.

I understand where you are going with this. But you are off base. Now lets talk about the extreme right. What are they and where are they? How many members are there? And where are they now? Such terms are meant to divide people. I see no extreme right in the USA in a major way. If Trump was given a fair chance by the media, there would be no problem today. From the moment Trump won, the democrats were calling for his impeachment the moment he won and Madonna wanted to blow up the white house ( women's march speech) and most of Hollywood said that he was not their president ( Robert DeNiro led the way). Democracy? The call was Impeach, impeach, impeach. I'm not a Trump supporter. But I call it the way I see it.

What are church members suppose to do in the USA? Who to support? Most people are just trying to survive a pandemic and have a roof over their heads. Most are getting along with all colors of human beings. Exteme this and extreme that...forget it.

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, why me said:

What are church members suppose to do in the USA? Who to support? Most people are just trying to survive a pandemic and have a roof over their heads. Most are getting along with all colors of human beings. Exteme this and extreme that...forget it.

Uncertain times lead to more extremism, not less.

[Teancum]

32 minutes ago, why me said:

I don't think that you are correct. I don't think that his politics had much to do with many members at that time at all. I was there, lived in it at that time. Church members became republican because republicanism was conservative on social issues. The democrats were liberal on social issues. Thus, mormons in the US inside the mormon corridor were republicans. ETB was a member of the John Birch Society. Most members had no idea what that was. And the society had little impact in American politics. That being said, many mormons in other parts of the world belonged to the social democrat parties. Others were conservative. And most were just going through life surviving, especially in the USA. The 70s were rough for many members. Church welfare played a huge role in keeping people afloat. Conservatism was defined by Barry Goldwater and William F. Buckley of the National Review.

I understand where you are going with this. But you are off base. Now lets talk about the extreme right. What are they and where are they? How many members are there? And where are they now? Such terms are meant to divide people. I see no extreme right in the USA in a major way. If Trump was given a fair chance by the media, there would be no problem today. From the moment Trump won, the democrats were calling for his impeachment the moment he won and Madonna wanted to blow up the white house ( women's march speech) and most of Hollywood said that he was not their president ( Robert DeNiro led the way). Democracy? The call was Impeach, impeach, impeach. I'm not a Trump supporter. But I call it the way I see it.

What are church members suppose to do in the USA? Who to support? Most people are just trying to survive a pandemic and have a roof over their heads. Most are getting along with all colors of human beings. Exteme this and extreme that...forget it.

My  comments were based on the conclusions in the book.  I recommend it.  I lived through Benson's John Bircher times as well though I was rather young.  My parent, who were Republicans, did not like Benson at all and often complained about his politicking.  I know many Latter day Saints that are very right wing and they quote Benson all the time.  I think my opening comments are pretty spot on. 

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In view of the red banner still atop this board, why is this blatantly political thread remaining open? 

The purpose is not the debate politics but to talk about the book

and the influence President Benson had in shaping political views among Latter day Saint. Feel free to not participate.  I think the book is an important book and worth discussing.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Teancum

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, esodije said:

The notion that “right wing” philosophy in the church had its roots solely in Ezra Taft Benson is a huge, mendacious fallacy. I don’t think Elder/President Lee was the only like-minded member of the Twelve in that era, either. The younger members of the quorum at the time learned to be publicly apolitical, but I feel certain they privately held similar views.

Nobody is arguing that he was solely responsible for it.  President McKay likely tolerated Benson's activities because he was very concerned about communism.  And I think we need to remember that this was during the height of the Cold War with the USSR.

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Mods (mod?) have a life going on elsewhere most likely and no one else can close threads.  It has been reported already. Time to be patient. Sometimes it can take a couple of days, but there has only been once in the past 6 months at least I reported a thread for being political (and I assume others did as well so not saying it was because I told them to do it) that it didn’t eventually get closed and I can sort of see why they didn’t in the one that didn’t get closed (politics was not the main or secondary focus).

Why should the thread be reported?  I don't view this as a blatantly political thread.  We are discussing the influence of ETB.  That is it.

[Stargazer]

On 1/7/2022 at 8:19 PM, smac97 said:

But how numerically significant are these folks in the Church, and how many of them trace their political inclinations to ETB's rhetoric?

Not me.

I grew up in the church during these times (a convert of age 14 in 1966) and remember reading many political tracts/books that were perhaps along the lines of ETB's politics, but never read any of ETBs books until long afterwards. The one book that influenced me the most when I was fairly young in the church (and preparing to serve a mission, in fact) was John Stormer's "None Dare Call It Treason". The book scared me and depressed me, and I decided it was too dark, so I pushed the ideas off to the side as not useful. But I was still suspicious that there were bad things going on behind the scenes that were actively kept out of the light of day. I still think this, but identifying them?  Good luck with that.

Later, I came more into contact with ETB's writings through W. Cleon Skousen. Skousen got into the conspiracy angles, too, but what attracted me was his emphasis on the US Constitution, and the more positive aspects of political matters. I know that some people hate Skousen passionately, but the same people hate Jordan Peterson, too, and that is a tell.

Oh, and by the way, my parents were not LDS, but were staunch Republicans, and though they were not politically active, the GOP was the party they supported, and they voted accordingly. We didn't have political discussions at home. At least, not in front of my brother and I. When John Kennedy ran for the presidency in 1960, I was 9 years old, and I liked Democrat Kennedy better because Republican Nixon looked like a grump. Like I say, politics were not a topic of great importance when I was growing up, but I'm sure my parents' attitudes seeped over into my brain eventually. 

Politically, I'm more of a Libertarian than a Republican, though.

[2BizE]

If Benson were alive today, he would be in the far, far right crowd with Ammon Bundy and The Daybells.  

[Stargazer]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It was the name of the British church magazine and had been around a long time. It is the longest running magazine in Church history going from 1840 to 1970.

When an apostle was visiting he mentioned it and asked the mission leadership not to use the name. I don't know if he had heard it back home or saw it while he was here or what happened.

I wouldn't know for sure, but I bet that the reason for asking the mag to be renamed is because the Millennial Star was on a par with The Improvement Era, and other, older, church publications, and for the mission to re-use the name was a potential borrowing of prestige, or authority. I was present in the UK when the Star was discontinued in favor of The Ensign, and the British Saints were not well pleased with the change. 

It wouldn't surprise me if the Church has trademarked "The Ensign" in order to keep people from using the title as a magazine, and for the same reason.

[Stargazer]

14 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

If Benson were alive today, he would be in the far, far right crowd with Ammon Bundy and The Daybells.  

I doubt that most sincerely.

[why me]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Uncertain times lead to more extremism, not less.

Not really. Times were often uncertain. The seventies, the late sixties, the 80s and 90s. When were the last decades containing certainty? And the 21st century? Perhaps we can say this: when people feel that they are being ignored and bruised and no one is listening to them, perhaps they go to the extreme. Do you remember hope and change? There was no hope and no change. And then Trump came along because people felt silenced. And then the establishment attempted to silence him as soon he was elected. Demonstrations began in Democrat cities against him. Do you remember? And all those voters who voted for him felt cheated by the Establishment. And yet, where are the extremists? Not many.

And now, we have the establishment back in power. Isn't it wonderful? And so, where should the average Joe and Jane turn? The LDS in the USA tend to be conservatives but not extremists. I remember the talk about ETB in my ward. The dominant opinion was that he would never be prophet because of his politics. But he did become prophet. I don't remember him being political. And so all went well.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, why me said:

Not really. Times were often uncertain. The seventies, the late sixties, the 80s and 90s. When were the last decades containing certainty? And the 21st century? Perhaps we can say this: when people feel that they are being ignored and bruised and no one is listening to them, perhaps they go to the extreme. Do you remember hope and change? There was no hope and no change. And then Trump came along because people felt silenced. And then the establishment attempted to silence him as soon he was elected. Demonstrations began in Democrat cities against him. Do you remember? And all those voters who voted for him felt cheated by the Establishment. And yet, where are the extremists? Not many.

Not many? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

We still have people in hiding over a year later due to death threats over the election. Here is a deep dive on a few of these extremists.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-election-threats/

It is going to get worse before it gets better.

The establishment did not attempt to silence him until the insurrection. He was a buffoon from the start and routinely said such inflammatory and outrageous things that he probably only won because he got hundreds of millions of dollars of free publicity as journalism loved him for his clickbait headlines. He still does. In his insurrection anniversary interview he focused on a conspiracy to cover up how big the crowd was that came to listen to him because it was the biggest ever.

Narrator: It was not the biggest ever.

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, kimpearson said:

My guess is that your parents and grandparents are similar to my parents and siblings. 

My grandparents on my dad’s side sure, doubt if my grandparents on my mom’s side though but Grandpa died too soon to know…my parents no way. I am 62, grandparents born and raised in Utah and lived there much of their adult life, parents Mom lived in Utah until she was a teen, then went back East, lived all over the US, Dad born in SL but grew up in CA, went to UoU and lived with his staunch Democrat grandmother, the most political member of the family for generations as far as I am aware. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Calm

[why me]

47 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Not many? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!

We still have people in hiding over a year later due to death threats over the election. Here is a deep dive on a few of these extremists.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-election-threats/

It is going to get worse before it gets better.

The establishment did not attempt to silence him until the insurrection. He was a buffoon from the start and routinely said such inflammatory and outrageous things that he probably only won because he got hundreds of millions of dollars of free publicity as journalism loved him for his clickbait headlines. He still does. In his insurrection anniversary interview he focused on a conspiracy to cover up how big the crowd was that came to listen to him because it was the biggest ever.

Narrator: It was not the biggest ever.

 

And here is the problem. No one has been charged for insurrection. So, why use the word in your post. And then your terminology for someone who was elected president calling him a buffoon discarding the millions of people who voted for him. And then you wonder why these people may be somewhat bitter. But anyway back to the church members who may be just conservative in social issues being linked to extremism.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, 2BizE said:

If Benson were alive today, he would be in the far, far right crowd with Ammon Bundy and The Daybells.  

The Daybell group are into mysticism and taking on higher priesthood authority than actual leaders in a way I think Elder and Pres Benson would find revolting. I don’t know Bundy well enough to know if he respects church leadership or not. Given how many in the group believe church leaders are apostate, my guess is he would not be supportive of Bundy either. Conspiracies in the government and world is different than seeing conspiracies with church leaders. I haven’t studied his political stuff much, but my impression is he saw the Church as the rock that the rest would beat against eventually, not that the Church would be wobbling, going PC, etc. 

[SkyRock]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Daybell group are into mysticism and taking on higher priesthood authority than actual leaders in a way I think Elder and Pres Benson would find revolting. I don’t know Bundy well enough to know if he respects church leadership or not. Given how many in the group believe church leaders are apostate, my guess is he would not be supportive of Bundy either. Conspiracies in the government and world is different than seeing conspiracies with church leaders. I haven’t studied his political stuff much, but my impression is he saw the Church as the rock that the rest would beat against eventually, not that the Church would be wobbling, going PC, etc. 

You likely have it correct.   If anything, no matter his concerns about secret combinations in our society, he was too trusting in the overall goodness of America in the world.   I wish he had been more concerned about American imperialism and neocolonialism and America supporting dictators and suppressing popular governments around the world in the name of anti-communism.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Why should the thread be reported?  I don't view this as a blatantly political thread.  We are discussing the influence of ETB.  That is it.

Actually I believe I got this thread confused with another now that I reviewed it, I may not have reported it as I agree with you about the focus and I am not sure if that falls into partisan politics which is how I interpret the banner. However, now that the trump and other stuff that is irrelevant to your opening post has been brought up, there may be a greater risk it is closed. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, 2BizE said:

If Benson were alive today, he would be in the far, far right crowd with Ammon Bundy and The Daybells.  

Doubt it. He didn’t like McCarthy’s tactics so I doubt he would be okay with the violence of the Bundy clan and the rest.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, why me said:

And here is the problem. No one has been charged for insurrection.

Yet. The AG gave a speech a few days ago talking about how the plea deals and minor offenses were taken care of and now they are moving up to the violent offenders and the planners. The obvious plan is to use plea deals to get them to eat their way up the chain to the people behind it. The 1/6 committee will also turn over their documents when they are finished which could and probably will cause more indictments to fall.

Even then I suspect it will be sedition or conspiracy instead of insurrection but those are legal terms to hash out. The word insurrection is still accurate based on what they were attempting to do. I am well aware of that as I was monitoring a lot of their communications ahead of time. Murder, rape, hostage-taking, lynching, coercing members of congress and the VP to take specific actions under the threat of violence. Lots of fun stuff they were planning. It wasn’t vague either. They had people they specifically wanted dead or lynched or to rape. It was sick and I only saw some of the outer layers really. I didn’t go into some of the more hidden sites but what I heard about them is that they were the same only more explicit.

1 hour ago, why me said:

And then your terminology for someone who was elected president calling him a buffoon discarding the millions of people who voted for him. And then you wonder why these people may be somewhat bitter. But anyway back to the church members who may be just conservative in social issues being linked to extremism.

So they decided to do all this because people like me hurt their little feelings and made them bitter? I am supposed to feel sorry for the murderous mob for that reason? All I had to do was validate their decision to anoint a serial adulterer lifelong conman their Christian messiah and all would be well? Nope. I saw some of the pain and fear inflicted by their decisions. If some of that comes back around to bite them now so be it.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

You likely have it correct.   If anything, no matter his concerns about secret combinations in our society, he was too trusting in the overall goodness of America in the world.   I wish he had been more concerned about American imperialism and neocolonialism and America supporting dictators and suppressing popular governments around the world in the name of anti-communism.

I suspect that seeing Europe post-WW2 made him very concerned the same could come to the US.

Ezra Taft Benson was also not an expert on foreign policy. Here is him and John Wayne sharing their thoughts on the Vietnam War.

Bring Chiang-Kai-Shek’s Chinese nationalists into the conflict? Even if they were willing that is a horrible plan all but guaranteed to escalate the conflict. China supported the North Vietnamese to a degree but it was a limited war. If you bring the Nationalists in the CCP would have to strike back hard. Giving Chiang-Kai-Shek any kind of victory is an existential threat to the current Chinese government. And trained to fight in “Asian conditions”? They haven’t fought since the civil war drove them to Taiwan and virtually all their training since has been on Taiwan and their plans were all to defend Taiwan (feasible) and  invade China (not likely). They didn’t have a better grasp of southeastern Asia jungle warfare than the US military and it is questionable whether they would fight and die for Vietnam. It was questionable whether they would fight and die for China. It was a very  autocratic state and the military was largely conscripted.

I am not endorsing the text at the end of the video. One of the supreme ironies is that modern China is a lot like the China Chiang Kai-Shek wanted to build. It is definitely closer to his dream than to Mao’s original dream. Even if he did somehow win would it be better? I don’t know.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Probably because some political threads are more equal than others…

Clever allusion to George Orwell’s Animal Farm. 

[The Nehor]

I have a theory on why Ezra Taft Benson bought into conspiracy theories. He grew up a conservative and was very much a ‘bootstraps’ guy. During the depression he was part of a cooperative and it worked pretty well to help the farmers survive. From that came the idea that private is always better than public. He goes into the Quorum of the Twelve and even though there are disagreements in the Quorum there is generally some respect amongst the members and they have the same goal. So he is in leadership both in his farming life and in his church life and both organizations run pretty well.

Then he goes to Washington. He is politically naive. His policies are not popular. They are actively hated and I have a hard time being blaming people for not liking him. Even though he is doing what the President wants he is doing it with a lot more directness than politics usually requires and his changes are abrupt and jarring. Everywhere there are people criticizing him. He tries to make political alliances to get things done but he doesn’t understand the game and doesn’t know how to play so he gets frustrated by it all. Then one of the first ‘communists’ exposed is in his department. To be fair that first one may have actually been a communist with some ties to the Soviets. So the red scare happens. I suspect that his frustration with the levers of government he was trying to work that didn’t work like they did in the church or in his farming life led him to suspect that the whole system was poisoned. Then it made sense. If the US which he loves isn’t working right it must be communists gumming up the works. If we can find them it will be like it should be. So he starts looking and targets someone who isn’t a genuine communist. He wasn’t paranoid in the way most conspiracy theorists are but he was very credulous. Finally he had an enemy to fight and he tried to fight it. He tried to get the presidency to root out the communists but no one wanted him. He tied the secret combinations to the largely non-existent communist infiltrators. The part I find hard to understand is how he kept believing the people sending him tracts and books saying there were communists everywhere and even naming his ally President Eisenhower as a communist. At that point those who worked with him basically dropped him. He ended up estranged from Eisenhower. When Hoover at the FBI started getting his ‘reports’ of communist infiltrators Hoover stopped talking with him. There were things gumming up the works but it was normal political stuff and secret combinations of a much less grandiose character just doing their regular thing.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

murderous mob

The murderous mob didn’t kill anyone. The cop did. Please just denounce all political violence, I have. I have a hard time knowing the violence you condone in other circumstances. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by bsjkki

[Harry T. Clark]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Yet. The AG gave a speech a few days ago talking about how the plea deals and minor offenses were taken care of and now they are moving up to the violent offenders and the planners. The obvious plan is to use plea deals to get them to eat their way up the chain to the people behind it. The 1/6 committee will also turn over their documents when they are finished which could and probably will cause more indictments to fall.

Even then I suspect it will be sedition or conspiracy instead of insurrection but those are legal terms to hash out. The word insurrection is still accurate based on what they were attempting to do. I am well aware of that as I was monitoring a lot of their communications ahead of time. Murder, rape, hostage-taking, lynching, coercing members of congress and the VP to take specific actions under the threat of violence. Lots of fun stuff they were planning. It wasn’t vague either. They had people they specifically wanted dead or lynched or to rape. It was sick and I only saw some of the outer layers really. I didn’t go into some of the more hidden sites but what I heard about them is that they were the same only more explicit.

So they decided to do all this because people like me hurt their little feelings and made them bitter? I am supposed to feel sorry for the murderous mob for that reason? All I had to do was validate their decision to anoint a serial adulterer lifelong conman their Christian messiah and all would be well? Nope. I saw some of the pain and fear inflicted by their decisions. If some of that comes back around to bite them now so be it.

Why do you think the Justice Dept. won't release all the videos taken that day?  Where were the weapons?  How do you explain the capitol police letting people in to the capitol building?  Why wasn't there more security?  What were Pelosi's communications with the police/national guard?  What do you make of the reports that there were federal agents involved, just like with the supposed Whitmer plot?  

I think this is more politics than anything else.  Both sides do it.  Both sides want to outlaw the other side.  The government wasn't in danger.  The military wasn't involved in storming the capitol.  None of the people that entered had weapons.  No one has been charged with insurrection and Trump left office.  He isn't the president any more.  So, perhaps let's view this for what it is, more political nonsense. 

I'd like to see you expand on the supposed evidence of the nefarious plots/plans you claim existed.  What blueannon sites are you frequenting?  At least give a little back up instead of just making empty statements.  We all know you believe the walls are still closing in. Too bad russiagate was exposed for the Clinton creation is was.    

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Why do you think the Justice Dept. won't release all the videos taken that day?  Where were the weapons?  How do you explain the capitol police letting people in to the capitol building?  Why wasn't there more security?  What were Pelosi's communications with the police/national guard?  What do you make of the reports that there were federal agents involved, just like with the supposed Whitmer plot?  

I think this is more politics than anything else.  Both sides do it.  Both sides want to outlaw the other side.  The government wasn't in danger.  The military wasn't involved in storming the capitol.  None of the people that entered had weapons.  No one has been charged with insurrection and Trump left office.  He isn't the president any more.  So, perhaps let's view this for what it is, more political nonsense. 

I'd like to see you expand on the supposed evidence of the nefarious plots/plans you claim existed.  What blueannon sites are you frequenting?  At least give a little back up instead of just making empty statements.  We all know you believe the walls are still closing in. Too bad russiagate was exposed for the Clinton creation is was.    

We do live in extreme times and I fear the overall climate will trigger the fringe groups on both sides. Violence comes most from radicalized lone wolfs or when large groups gather and things get triggered.