Satan's water

[Chum]

A million years ago, a missionary told me they couldn't go out on boats because Satan had dominion over the water.  I recall other missionaries confirming that later.  I realized today I hadn't heard it mentioned in a long while and never really knew what it was based on.

Was this a thing? Is it still? Where did it come from?

[The Nehor]

D&C 61

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

 

This was a common explanation used by missionaries to explain why they were not allowed to swim or do other water activities. Since that prohibition has usually been close to the ones about not using firearms or motorcycling and what-have-you it is more likely it is part of a general safety concern.

Some missions had exceptions to this general rule.

 

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

D&C 61

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

Son was speculating that some of those action @ water verses (Red Sea, Dead Sea) may have packed a 2nd meaning.

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Some missions had exceptions to this general rule.

We were guessing this. Also that the occasional dispensation needs to be granted. I figure some extra praying went into the latter.

[Chum]

Just now, Chum said:

We were guessing this. Also that the occasional dispensation needs to be granted. I figure some extra praying went into the latter.

But not the Water Into Wine miracle, although turning Satan into booze would be kind of amazing.

[Fether]

41 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 

D&C 61

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

 

 

What are we REALLY supposed to take from this scripture?

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Fether said:

What are we REALLY supposed to take from this scripture?

Some combination of pollution and climate change might make ocean travel very interesting going forward?

That it was specifically about that river?

That John the Beloved took a Carnival cruise and was so disgusted he cursed the ocean itself and God just figured He would go along with it?

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

D&C 61

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

 

This was a common explanation used by missionaries to explain why they were not allowed to swim or do other water activities. Since that prohibition has usually been close to the ones about not using firearms or motorcycling and what-have-you it is more likely it is part of a general safety concern.

Some missions had exceptions to this general rule.

 

It's funny though how it says that you aren't shouldn't use firearms, etc.  And then says (or at least did when I was serving) something like "NEVER go swimming"  

[JustAnAustralian]

The leadup to D&C 61 of course, is this encounter (which links into verse 19)

Quote

9–12 August 1831 • Tuesday–Friday

On the 9th, in company with ten elders, I left  Independence Landing for Kirtland, we started down the river in canoes, and went the first day as far as Fort Osage where we had an excellent wild turky for supper. Nothing very im[HC 1:202] portant occurred till the third day, when many of the dangers, so common upon the western waters, manifested themselves; and after we had encamped upon the bank of the river, at McIlwaine’s bend, brother [William W.] Phelps, in an open vision, by daylight, saw the Destroyer, in his most horrible power, ride upon the face of the waters. Others heard the noise, but saw not the vision. 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-a-1-23-december-1805-30-august-1834/148

 

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Chum said:

A million years ago, a missionary told me they couldn't go out on boats because Satan had dominion over the water.  I recall other missionaries confirming that later.  I realized today I hadn't heard it mentioned in a long while and never really knew what it was based on.

Was this a thing? Is it still? Where did it come from?

From CFM 2021:

Doctrine and Covenants 61:5–6, 14–18

Are all waters cursed by the Lord?

The Lord’s warning in Doctrine and Covenants 61 was, in part, a warning about the dangers His people could face while traveling to Zion on the Missouri River, which was known at that time for being dangerous. This warning should not be interpreted to mean that we should avoid traveling by water. The Lord has “all power,” including power over the waters (verse 1).

So while it's good to liken the scriptures unto ourselves, I think it is also good to liken context unto ourselves. In this case, the context to liken is that often a specific inspired direction is to take care of a specific circumstance.

 

[Chum]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

So while it's good to liken the scriptures unto ourselves, I think it is also good to liken context unto ourselves. In this case, the context to liken is that often a specific inspired direction is to take care of a specific circumstance.

I'm an adult convert and never held any missionary related callings. That puts me pretty far out of the loop. I'll accept whatever mission presidents decide.

[Kenngo1969]

17 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's funny though how it says that you aren't shouldn't use firearms, etc.  And then says (or at least did when I was serving) something like "NEVER go swimming"  

But never, never use firearms while you are swimming.   

[Amulek]

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This was a common explanation used by missionaries to explain why they were not allowed to swim or do other water activities. Since that prohibition has usually been close to the ones about not using firearms or motorcycling and what-have-you it is more likely it is part of a general safety concern.

Yes, the idea of Satan 'riding upon the waters,' as described in the D&C section you quoted, was an oft-given reason for why swimming was prohibited for missionaries.

But the real reason is much more mundane - it's simply a matter of safety (and liability).

I mean, just think about it - at any given moment the church has got thousands of missionaries spread all over the world, many with access to bodies of water with varying degrees of safety.

And how many missionaries can actually swim well? Even in an ocean with riptides? Or in a river with things that can eat (or severely injure) you?

It's just not worth the risk.

Heck, at one point on my mission, our president was about one more blown ACL away from banning basketball completely for crying out loud.

I can only imagine what would be the response to someone being eaten by a shark.

 

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Yes, the idea of Satan 'riding upon the waters,' as described in the D&C section you quoted, was an oft-given reason for why swimming was prohibited for missionaries.

But the real reason is much more mundane - it's simply a matter of safety (and liability).

I mean, just think about it - at any given moment the church has got thousands of missionaries spread all over the world, many with access to bodies of water with varying degrees of safety.

And how many missionaries can actually swim well? Even in an ocean with riptides? Or in a river with things that can eat (or severely injure) you?

It's just not worth the risk.

Heck, at one point on my mission, our president was about one more blown ACL away from banning basketball completely for crying out loud.

I can only imagine what would be the response to someone being eaten by a shark.

 

But my battle with that shark is one of my best mission stories.

[Cordelia]

And here I thought I enjoyed looking at the ocean more than being in/on it because of my superior righteousness. 

[sunstoned]

On 1/2/2022 at 10:23 AM, The Nehor said:

D&C 61

14 Behold, I, the Lord, in the beginning blessed the waters; but in the last days, by the mouth of my servant John, I cursed the waters.

15 Wherefore, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters.

16 And it shall be said in days to come that none is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart.

17 And, as I, the Lord, in the beginning cursed the land, even so in the last days have I blessed it, in its time, for the use of my saints, that they may partake the fatness thereof.

18 And now I give unto you a commandment that what I say unto one I say unto all, that you shall forewarn your brethren concerning these waters, that they come not in journeying upon them, lest their faith fail and they are caught in snares;

19 I, the Lord, have decreed, and the destroyer rideth upon the face thereof, and I revoke not the decree.

 

This was a common explanation used by missionaries to explain why they were not allowed to swim or do other water activities. Since that prohibition has usually been close to the ones about not using firearms or motorcycling and what-have-you it is more likely it is part of a general safety concern.

Some missions had exceptions to this general rule.

 

 

From the Joseph Smith Papers:

 

Quote

During their second day on the river, “a spirit of animosity and discord” infected the group. “The conduct of the Elders became very displeasing to Oliver Cowdery.” He prophesied, “As the Lord God liveth, if you do not behave better, some accident will befall you.”2 At some point William Phelps “saw the Destroyer, in his most horrible power, ride upon the face of the waters,” though what that means is uncertain and ought not to be interpreted to mean that Satan controls the waters without more revelation.

“History, 1838–1856, volume A-1 [23 December 1805–30 August 1834],” p. 142, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed September 5, 2020; Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (New York: Knopf, 2005), 164.

Seems like there was much more paranormal activity in the day of the magic world view.  Kind of scary. 

 

 

[Chum]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

But never, never use firearms while you are swimming.   

Florida.

[Kenngo1969]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's funny though how it says that you aren't shouldn't use firearms, etc.  And then says (or at least did when I was serving) something like "NEVER go swimming"  

 

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

But never, never use firearms while you are swimming.   

 

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

Florida.

Hey, if you're gonna go swimming in Florida, ya gotta protect yourself from them thar alligators somehow!    

[Chum]

1 minute ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Hey, if you're gonna go swimming in Florida, ya gotta protect yourself from them thar alligators somehow!    

I could see our locals standing over a dead manatee shouting STAND YOUR GROUND.

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Amulek said:

I mean, just think about it - at any given moment the church has got thousands of missionaries spread all over the world, many with access to bodies of water with varying degrees of safety.

This is true.  My guess is that the swimming ban came from fresh water risks in developing countries (most countries).  Most missionaries don't get a thorough pre-travel consult of infectious disease risk in areas they are serving, so it probably became easier to just do a blanket ban on swimming to simplify things.   Schistosomiasis, leptospirosis, and melioidosis are all fresh water swimming risks in most countries (including Hawaii).  In some African countries you are all but guaranteed to get infected with schistosomiasis (a parasite that can penetrate intact skin) simply by wading through a stream.  While drowning is a potential concern, I guarantee that more missionaries have been injured or killed in a car accident on their way to a basketball game on P-day than from swimming. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by pogi

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

This is true.  My guess is that the swimming ban came from fresh water risks in developing countries (most countries).  Most missionaries don't get a thorough pre-travel consult of infectious disease risk in areas they are serving, so it probably became easier to just do a blanket ban on swimming to simplify things.   Schistosomiasis, leptospirosis, and meliondosis are all fresh water swimming risks in most countries (including Hawaii).  In some African countries you are all but guaranteed to get infected with schistosomiasis (a parasite that can penetrate intact skin) simply by wading through a stream.  While drowning is a potential concern, I guarantee that more missionaries have been injured or killed in a car accident on their way to a basketball game on P-day than from swimming. 

True, but I think the rule about swimming is grounded not so much in physical safety as on keeping the missionaries focused. You can also look at the possible ways for missionaries to go swimming. Public pools are probably not ideal for a lot of reasons. Gyms probably a bad idea. At a member or investigator’s home definitely suboptimal. In lakes, rivers, and oceans the physical safety thing comes back.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

But never, never use firearms while you are swimming.   

Stand your ground!

The only thing that can stop a bad raptor with a rocket launcher riding a shark is a good raptor with a……..never mind, run for it!

 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Chum said:

Florida.

I assume people are armed while showering in Florida just in case.

[Calm]

Just now, The Nehor said:

I assume people are armed while showering in Florida just in case.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alligator-bathroom-florida-woman-finds-gator-house/story?id=13451486

[Chum]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/alligator-bathroom-florida-woman-finds-gator-house/story?id=13451486

Needs a gun for the trifecta.