Truth vs. community

[poptart]

What's more important in a religion, community or truth?  Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

[Fether]

3 minutes ago, poptart said:

What's more important in a religion, community or truth?  Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

Generally speaking, I would say they are complimentary with truth taking the lead.

can you provide an example where they may be competing?

[pogi]

Interesting question.

I think that truth builds good community when heeded. 

We can have a community without truth, but it would not be good.  

We can have truth without community (which I think is better than the alternative), but we will quickly lose that truth if we don’t use it to build community as directed by truth.

It seems they are complimentary in the pursuit of happiness.

Truth always points to community, but community doesn’t always point to truth, so I’d place truth on top.

Edited August 17, 2021 by pogi

[bOObOO]

4 hours ago, poptart said:

What's more important in a religion, community or truth?  Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

Truth is whatever is or was or will be.  Whatever exists, or existed, or will exist. As opposed to something that really is not, and never was real, and never will be. 

A community is a group of people, and no 2 persons are totally identical with the same exact history or historical details.  So while they may be like-minded, they would still be different, separate people.  And they may not be like-minded, and very different.

 

[Bernard Gui]

The truth will make you free. Not so with some communities. Christ is the way, the truth, and the light. We should seek to commune with him and align our community with his. 

[Chum]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The truth will make you free

Truth is more versatile than people realize. My ex used it to imprison people in misery.

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, Chum said:

Truth is more versatile than people realize. My ex used it to imprison people in misery.

They couldn’t handle it?

[smac97]

4 hours ago, poptart said:

What's more important in a religion, community or truth? 

That's sort of like asking which is more important to health: water or caloric intake?

In an extreme sense, I think "truth" is the most important thing.  But truth is seldom an all-or-nothing thing.  Every religion, including ours, has shades and gradations of it.

4 hours ago, poptart said:

Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

Complimentary, I think.  I think the Church has a pretty good philosophy about this.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Of course, our world is full of diverse individuals. Truth claims do and will continue to diverge, but they need not violently clash. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ founder Joseph Smith aspired to a better way: “If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in his own way if I cannot persuade him my way is better; and I will ask no man to believe as I do.”[4]

The Mormon view of truth is grounded in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, but that doesn’t mean truth is limited to the Mormon experience. As Elder D. Todd Christofferson said, “Truth is scattered liberally across the globe.”[5] And it was Joseph Smith who encouraged us to “get all the good in the world”[6] and to “receive truth, let it come from whence it may.”[7] Truth has many aspects — spiritual, physical, philosophical, historical — and in the end they all fit together into one great whole.

President Hugh B. Brown, then a member of the Church’s First Presidency, said in 1969 that even with the Church’s many important and unique truths, “there is an incomprehensibly greater part of truth which we must yet discover. Our revealed truth should leave us stricken with the knowledge of how little we really know. It should never lead to an emotional arrogance based upon a false assumption that we somehow have all the answers — that we in fact have a corner on truth. For we do not.”[8]

Indeed, as one Mormon scripture teaches, God “will yet reveal many great and important things.”[9]

The Mormon approach to truth trusts in the unchanging truths of the gospel while acknowledging the many unknowns. Mormon general authority B. H. Roberts (1857–1933) taught that this Church was established “for the instruction of men,” and God “is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place.”[10]

In that spirit, the First Presidency made the following statement in 1978: “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God's light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.” [11]

So, according to Roberts, “God raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend.” Thus, he continues, “wherever God finds a soul sufficiently enlightened and pure; one with whom his Spirit can communicate, lo! he makes of him a teacher of men.”[12]

The learning of men is a wonderful tool.  For example, science is a wonderful thing.  But our grasp of it is incomplete.  And finite.  And blinkered by biases and motives.  

To some extent, the same can be said of revelation.  So we are walking by faith.  That faith should be as informed as possible.  And improving faith, as well as behavior, is often a community effort.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Chum]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

They couldn’t handle it?

Truth can do tons of damage, which she did.

[bOObOO]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

The truth will make you free. Not so with some communities. Christ is the way, the truth, and the light. We should seek to commune with him and align our community with his. 

I still wonder what our Lord meant by saying the truth will make us free.  Free from being subject only to what people tell us without knowing for ourselves what is true and what isn't, maybe?  Free from peer pressure, in that way?

If the goal or one of the goals of our time here is to overcome the whole world, as our Lord did, I can see why and how it makes a difference to know what the truth is rather than only being able to take someone else at their word.

"You're a jerk, a real mess, a dude with a habit of making stupid decisions and saying stupid things" somebody might say to somebody else.  To which I would respond, "Well, I know better than to listen to you now, because that is simply not true."

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, poptart said:

What's more important in a religion, community or truth?  Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

They're definitely interrelated.

When I was younger I thought it was more important to be right, no matter what.

Don't get me wrong, there are certain things where I certainly still feel that's the case. However, as I've gotten older, I've started to think more and more about how much emphasis God seems to place on unity.

For instance, we read that "the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness."

And how Christ prays to the father that we might be one in the same way that He and the Father are one, and that we might all be one.

That certainly seems like the goal at least.

And the first step in getting there is to learn how to come together with ourselves (community, if you will).

After that, we bring ourselves - all of us - into harmony with God (or the truth, or however you want to describe it).

 

[pogi]

33 minutes ago, Amulek said:

They're definitely interrelated.

When I was younger I thought it was more important to be right, no matter what.

Don't get me wrong, there are certain things where I certainly still feel that's the case. However, as I've gotten older, I've started to think more and more about how much emphasis God seems to place on unity.

For instance, we read that "the Lord called his people Zion, because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness."

And how Christ prays to the father that we might be one in the same way that He and the Father are one, and that we might all be one.

That certainly seems like the goal at least.

And the first step in getting there is to learn how to come together with ourselves (community, if you will).

After that, we bring ourselves - all of us - into harmony with God (or the truth, or however you want to describe it).

 

There is some truth to this for sure. 

All things that I need to work on:

Quote

 

Doctrine and Covenants 121:41–43

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy.

 

Quote

2 Peter 1:5-8 KJV
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

While we should be loving and kind in how we influence others towards the truth, we should never abandon the truth in the name of unity.   Truth is the very way and means of Godly unity or oneness. 

One of my favorite examples on strengthening unity in marriage is exemplified in a triangle. 

If you place a picture of you in a bottom corner and a picture of your wife in the opposite bottom corner you will see that there is distance and disunity between you and your wife.  Now place a picture of Christ (the truth) at the peak of the triangle.   You will notice that as each of you move up the triangle from where you are in your respective corners, you gradually get closer together in proximity until you eventual become united in oneness in Christ at the peak.   As we strengthen our personal relationship with Christ and the truth, we naturally grow closer and more united with our loved ones.  

[katherine the great]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

One of my favorite examples on strengthening unity in marriage is exemplified in a triangle. 

I used to love this example until one of the most obnoxious and self-righteous people I’ve ever met used this example in Relief Society. With her own marriage, of course, personifying the triangle. 🙄 

[katherine the great]

7 hours ago, poptart said:

What's more important in a religion, community or truth?  Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

Sorry- I got off topic. This is a good question. A religion cannot exist without a community. As to the truth well… To quote Pilate, “What is truth?”

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

Truth can do tons of damage, which she did.

Yep.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bOObOO said:

I still wonder what our Lord meant by saying the truth will make us free.  Free from being subject only to what people tell us without knowing for ourselves what is true and what isn't, maybe?  Free from peer pressure, in that way?

If the goal or one of the goals of our time here is to overcome the whole world, as our Lord did, I can see why and how it makes a difference to know what the truth is rather than only being able to take someone else at their word.

"You're a jerk, a real mess, a dude with a habit of making stupid decisions and saying stupid things" somebody might say to somebody else.  To which I would respond, "Well, I know better than to listen to you now, because that is simply not true."

Free from sin, death, and Satan?

[bOObOO]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Free from sin, death, and Satan?

How would knowledge of what is and was and will be set someone free from sin or death or Satan?  I knew the truth when I committed sin in my past.  I will still die and be tempted by Satan too, even though I know what is true.

Can you do more to explain what you are talking about?

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, poptart said:

What's more important in a religion, community or truth?  Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

Truth is the most important, and if for some reason it came to a choice between truth and community then truth is all that matters.

"The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what he tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular; I will always maintain a true principle even if I stand alone in it."  - Joseph Smith.

[poptart]

8 hours ago, Fether said:

Generally speaking, I would say they are complimentary with truth taking the lead.

can you provide an example where they may be competing?

Hmm, that would fit the description of a functioning community.  I would not see them competing, for me truth is one of those things that in the end almost always comes out.  What does bother me, people seem to use "truth" as a weapon to hurt people nowadays, increasingly.  Visited moms old BYUH classmate, she's no longer a member but is still on good terms with the LDS church.  (I have yet to meet anyone who grew up mormon totally leave, it's too ingrained in your culture)  Anyway, she's one of the few people who had some really nasty relatives and well, she didn't haul them into court.  THe blood relatives I have here?  All they've done for generations is harm each other and those around them.  One of those families that really knows how to harm someone, sadly.

8 hours ago, pogi said:

Interesting question.

I think that truth builds good community when heeded. 

We can have a community without truth, but it would not be good.  

We can have truth without community (which I think is better than the alternative), but we will quickly lose that truth if we don’t use it to build community as directed by truth.

It seems they are complimentary in the pursuit of happiness.

Truth always points to community, but community doesn’t always point to truth, so I’d place truth on top.

For me Truth is always there, a faulty community won't stand for long.  Sooner or later garbage people come in and like flies to rotting fruit/flesh etc. they bring friends.  Good take, thanks.

4 hours ago, bOObOO said:

Truth is whatever is or was or will be.  Whatever exists, or existed, or will exist. As opposed to something that really is not, and never was real, and never will be. 

A community is a group of people, and no 2 persons are totally identical with the same exact history or historical details.  So while they may be like-minded, they would still be different, separate people.  And they may not be like-minded, and very different.

 

What?

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

The truth will make you free. Not so with some communities. Christ is the way, the truth, and the light. We should seek to commune with him and align our community with his. 

I cannot relate.  For me, truth is something along the lines of enlightenment, it's not always pleasant.  It is however true, i.e it is what it is. 

4 hours ago, Chum said:

Truth is more versatile than people realize. My ex used it to imprison people in misery.

I have a funny feeling you and I have had many similar things happen to us.  That or we've seen many of the same things.

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

That's sort of like asking which is more important to health: water or caloric intake?

In an extreme sense, I think "truth" is the most important thing.  But truth is seldom an all-or-nothing thing.  Every religion, including ours, has shades and gradations of it.

Complimentary, I think.  I think the Church has a pretty good philosophy about this.  See, e.g., here:

The learning of men is a wonderful tool.  For example, science is a wonderful thing.  But our grasp of it is incomplete.  And finite.  And blinkered by biases and motives.  

To some extent, the same can be said of revelation.  So we are walking by faith.  That faith should be as informed as possible.  And improving faith, as well as behavior, is often a community effort.

Thanks,

-Smac

Always felt bad for Pilate, was handed a lousy situation.  Also he was a Roman, not a Jew, I somehow doubt he really grasped just what a savior would be.  If he didn't do what he did he'd likely have another riot on his hands.  Considering that would have likely ended with the death of his family and himself, for me it's hard not to feel bad for him.

2 hours ago, pogi said:

There is some truth to this for sure. 

All things that I need to work on:

While we should be loving and kind in how we influence others towards the truth, we should never abandon the truth in the name of unity.   Truth is the very way and means of Godly unity or oneness. 

One of my favorite examples on strengthening unity in marriage is exemplified in a triangle. 

If you place a picture of you in a bottom corner and a picture of your wife in the opposite bottom corner you will see that there is distance and disunity between you and your wife.  Now place a picture of Christ (the truth) at the peak of the triangle.   You will notice that as each of you move up the triangle from where you are in your respective corners, you gradually get closer together in proximity until you eventual become united in oneness in Christ at the peak.   As we strengthen our personal relationship with Christ and the truth, we naturally grow closer and more united with our loved ones.  

You worked as a hospice nurse, you get a ton of street credit from me for that.  First chance I get i'm transitioning back to something white collar, disgusts me how corporate medicine treats nurses and doctors.  You're a good guy.

Something that's made me wonder about people here who claim to be whatever flavor of Christian, their version of the truth not only varies, it seems to change.  IRL I tend to keep my circles separate, I've found people here can be put off a bit by some of my concepts.  Deep down I take my idea of truth from Buddhism and some Taoism, the truth always comes out.  It's like karma, all are subject to it, not even the gods can escape cause and effect.  Know your beliefs differ but for me, i've seen that happen almost always without fail.  I do think Latter Day Saints have the right balance, in general.  I don't think you're "true", not as much as I think someone can absolve me of any supposed sin.  Sure, they can council you but in the end, it's on you.  What I do think and why I've really grown to appreciate how your church approaches family, stuff like this,  You make your point based on whatever your teaching then you apply it to families.  Something i've seen a lot growing up, minute the parents split, the church/parish pretty much doesn't care about them nor the children.  As it is Christianity is losing people fast, no one wants to take a look in the mirror and consider maybe a big part of it is how they treated children and those who were going through bad times.  They've now been rewarded with bitter enemies who cheer when rioters show up.  Reminds me of the African proverb, the village that doesn't initate the teenager will have him return as an adult to burn it down.  You can't treat people poorly and not expect there to be consequences, there aren't that many safe, affordable suburbs left to flee to.

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

Sorry- I got off topic. This is a good question. A religion cannot exist without a community. As to the truth well… To quote Pilate, “What is truth?”

That's the thing, truth does vary.  For me, there are a few things that are absolutely true, old age, sickness and death.  No one stays on top forever.  

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Truth is the most important, and if for some reason it came to a choice between truth and community then truth is all that matters.

"The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what he tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular; I will always maintain a true principle even if I stand alone in it."  - Joseph Smith.

And he did stand in it alone, poor guy.  

[bOObOO]

7 minutes ago, poptart said:

What?

What, what?  I was using English.

[poptart]

19 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

What, what?  I was using English.

I had to take another look at that, a few times.  My bad, well said.  

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, poptart said:

What's more important in a religion, community or truth?  Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

Sometimes truth (or some aspect of it) will be sacrificed for the survival of the community.  I can think of several occasions when the people of God have gone off the rails, despite the frank displeasure of God, but were allowed to do so for the sake of the future.  At other times, God became angry and sent his people into exile.  The LDS community has made some noteworthy mistakes, which took a long time to ameliorate.  Same for ancient Israel and Judah.  As you suggest, truth & community are complementary.  They buttress one another.

[Eph2,8]

On 8/17/2021 at 7:23 AM, poptart said:

What's more important in a religion, community or truth?  Are they seperate, one in the same or complimentary?

Ideally they would be complimentary, but it does not always work out that. Truth, when truly received, requires someone to change their lifestyle - to reconcile themselves to the truth. This causes division in communities filled with people who have varying commitments to truth. This is why in Matthew 10 Jesus says that He has not come to bring peace, but a sword. He came to bring division. He came to set people at variance against their own families. How? Why? Because He brought the truth. The truth is a divider against those committed and uncommitted. Those who enjoy unity or community in religion should enjoy it after they have committed to that truth. 

Matthew 10:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

[Navidad]

The vast majority of what folks deem "the truth" is their lived truth. It is not thee Truth, or which there are very few. I am married to the best wife in the world. I will fight for that truth, but must realize that it is my truth and no one else's. So it is with the vast majority of truths. From a faith perspective it is my truth that feet-washing is a very important ordinance, not salvific, but can be life-changing. I am probably the only person on this forum with that truth. Many here believe their church is the only true and living church with whom Christ is well-pleased. That is their truth. It isn't mine. Most of the time many of us won't agree on what is truth and what is Truth. I think the best thing for community is recognize this fact that most truths or just that - the sincere lived experiences of the person stating them. If we agree to receive those truths we become a community. Receive doesn't mean agree. It means to honor that we each have many truths that are vital to how we live our lives. Those are not Truths!